Oil talk: Rotella T6 is not that good after all

[Fourplay]

To your point of advanced oil formulation, there is nothing wrong with extended service life of 10k... Synthetics are so much better these days that many manufactures (not just VW) recommend 10, 12, and even 15k intervals. It's actually the filtration that is the concern, and some programs resolve this with a mid-interval cartridge change and nothing else. I've seen Blackstone results of a friends Shelby '07 GT500 and his results were perfect using the required Motorcraft synthetic after the recommended 15k change.

The days of 3k (or even 5k) service intervals have almost completely disappeared...

Again, when VAG first made recommendations about oil change interval and oil type, the oil formulations were completely different than they are today.

Going 10k-15k with an SN-rated 0w30 or 5w30 is going to cause much more wear than the same interval with Rotella T6 (or any Xw40 with a decent amount of ZDDP). The GT500 is not a comparable application, because it uses roller cams, not flat tappets, so there is much less wear on the valvetrain in that motor.

I would not run any oil for 10k in a B5 S4, especially one that sees high boost or limited cool-down periods. The oil has to withstand the turbo heat AND protect the engine AND prevent wear on the cams, and you'll have a very hard time finding any oil that can do that for such a long OCI (even with the extra-sized 1.8T filter). The reason 3k/5k oil change intervals have mostly disappeared is because engine and lubricant technology has advanced tremendously. However, our engine design is from the mid-1990s, so it needs more frequent changes with oil that has good high temp properties, resists shear well, and has high ZDDP levels (so basically no Xw20 or Xw30 SN rated oils).

I'd love to see what a Blackstone report would look like on a B5 S4 with a 0/5w30 SN rated oil after 15k miles. Wear metals through the roof and all additives/detergents would be shot. It would be ugly. But if someone is willing to risk it, it would be interesting.

I put minimal faith in oil recommendations made a decade and a half ago when oil formulation has changed so drastically. I put a lot of faith in lab analyses that show detergents and additives are at good levels and wear metals are constantly low.

[dannyn424]

i like tdt 5w40 over t6....

[BITRBO]

Again, when VAG first made recommendations about oil change interval and oil type, the oil formulations were completely different than they are today.

Going 10k-15k with an SN-rated 0w30 or 5w30 is going to cause much more wear than the same interval with Rotella T6 (or any Xw40 with a decent amount of ZDDP). The GT500 is not a comparable application, because it uses roller cams, not flat tappets, so there is much less wear on the valvetrain in that motor.

I would not run any oil for 10k in a B5 S4, especially one that sees high boost or limited cool-down periods. The oil has to withstand the turbo heat AND protect the engine AND prevent wear on the cams, and you'll have a very hard time finding any oil that can do that for such a long OCI (even with the extra-sized 1.8T filter). The reason 3k/5k oil change intervals have mostly disappeared is because engine and lubricant technology has advanced tremendously. However, our engine design is from the mid-1990s, so it needs more frequent changes with oil that has good high temp properties, resists shear well, and has high ZDDP levels (so basically no Xw20 or Xw30 SN rated oils).

I'd love to see what a Blackstone report would look like on a B5 S4 with a 0/5w30 SN rated oil after 15k miles. Wear metals through the roof and all additives/detergents would be shot. It would be ugly. But if someone is willing to risk it, it would be interesting.

I put minimal faith in oil recommendations made a decade and a half ago when oil formulation has changed so drastically. I put a lot of faith in lab analyses that show detergents and additives are at good levels and wear metals are constantly low.

I just provided the GT500 example because it seemed like you were implying that VW shouldn't be recommending 10k intervals, when in fact many manufacturers have been doing it for at least a decade now. On the B5 S4, I totally agree that 10k is way too long, but I don't think VW ever recommended that... On their newer engines, for sure 10k is fine IMO.

And I wasn't suggesting that I would ever go 15k on this car - No way. I think 5-6k for a normally street driven is fine, but mine mostly sees track duty (with only minor street usage), so I generally change the oil every-other event (so maybe 1,500-2000 miles?) I'm not sure I agree that Xw30's shouldn't be used either, cause they're not all created equal as I'm sure you know. The old Syntech "German Blend" (now "EDGE"?), for example, was proven to have properties much more like a w40 than a w30, which is why I've been running it for a while now. I also converted to a 1.8T filter when I did my MOCAL cooler, and I think that's critical for anyone planning to drive these cars HARD.

And regarding the cold viscosity number, people really shouldn't be so scared to run 0W or 5W at all... You ALWAYS want a lower, low-temp viscosity number, cause that's when most of the wear occurs; at start-up.

[julex]

I just provided the GT500 example because it seemed like you were implying that VW shouldn't be recommending 10k intervals, when in fact many manufacturers have been doing it for at least a decade now. On the B5 S4, I totally agree that 10k is way too long, but I don't think VW ever recommended that... On their newer engines, for sure 10k is fine IMO.

And I wasn't suggesting that I would ever go 15k on this car - No way. I think 5-6k for a normally street driven is fine, but mine mostly sees track duty (with only minor street usage), so I generally change the oil every-other event (so maybe 1,500-2000 miles?) I'm not sure I agree that Xw30's shouldn't be used either, cause they're not all created equal as I'm sure you know. The old Syntech "German Blend" (now "EDGE"?), for example, was proven to have properties much more like a w40 than a w30, which is why I've been running it for a while now. I also converted to a 1.8T filter when I did my MOCAL cooler, and I think that's critical for anyone planning to drive these cars HARD.

And regarding the cold viscosity number, people really shouldn't be so scared to run 0W or 5W at all... You ALWAYS want a lower, low-temp viscosity number, cause that's when most of the wear occurs; at start-up.

My cluster has 9k interval coded into it (allroad with APB) so it is almost 10k - official OCI for my car... ofc I change much more often than that since I beat the crap out of the car all the time.
Xw30 can be used if it is SJ or SK certified oil (like GC 0w30). New "Edge" is SN certified and is a different formulation from old 0w30 - this is why Edge 0w30 is not VW approved for anything but 0w40 (again, due to quirks of SM and SN certification where 0w40 can have anything it wants as far as ZDDP levels go) is VW approved.

[Fourplay]

I just provided the GT500 example because it seemed like you were implying that VW shouldn't be recommending 10k intervals, when in fact many manufacturers have been doing it for at least a decade now. On the B5 S4, I totally agree that 10k is way too long, but I don't think VW ever recommended that... On their newer engines, for sure 10k is fine IMO.

And I wasn't suggesting that I would ever go 15k on this car - No way. I think 5-6k for a normally street driven is fine, but mine mostly sees track duty (with only minor street usage), so I generally change the oil every-other event (so maybe 1,500-2000 miles?) I'm not sure I agree that Xw30's shouldn't be used either, cause they're not all created equal as I'm sure you know. The old Syntech "German Blend" (now "EDGE"?), for example, was proven to have properties much more like a w40 than a w30, which is why I've been running it for a while now. I also converted to a 1.8T filter when I did my MOCAL cooler, and I think that's critical for anyone planning to drive these cars HARD.

And regarding the cold viscosity number, people really shouldn't be so scared to run 0W or 5W at all... You ALWAYS want a lower, low-temp viscosity number, cause that's when most of the wear occurs; at start-up.

The official Audi oil change interval for the 2000 S4 was 8,000 miles. For the 2001 and 2002 S4s, this was updated to 10,000 miles. That's with the standard S4 filter, not the enlarged 1.8T filter. Even worse, vehicles on the long life service plan were expected to double stint the filter/oil to nearly 20k miles!

The problem with any SN rated Xw30 weight oil is that they have a cap on ZDDP of 800 ppm (for comparison, Rotella T6 has 1200ppm). However, Xw40 oils are not restricted in terms of ZDDP. That's the reason I would prefer a 0w40 or 5w40 over a 0w30 or 5w30 for our cars.

I just said 0w30 or 5w30 because those are the cold crank viscosities that VW approved for our cars. Obviously you want a 0w or 5w to minimize start-up wear - my main point was that anything with a Xw30 weight is going to be lower on ZDDP than a Xw40.

[19dabeast85]

As promised, here's my most recent sample putting 10k miles on Rotella t6 5w40. I have included my older report below this one also. Looks like the Rotella t6 has exceptional protection for our motors! BTW, I'm not going more than 10k miles per change regardless of their recommendations! lol!

[julex]

That does look very good.

[christianb5s4]

I have used Rotella T6 in my big turbo Saab and used it for my first oil change in the S4, only car I owned that I didn't use it in was my 370Z because that required ester based oil (used Redline Synthetic). I have yet to see any unfavorable oil analysis for these engines resulting from Rotella. This threat is a great read though.

[Fourplay]

As promised, here's my most recent sample putting 10k miles on Rotella t6 5w40. I have included my older report below this one also. Looks like the Rotella t6 has exceptional protection for our motors! BTW, I'm not going more than 10k miles per change regardless of their recommendations! lol!

Boom.

Exactly what I saw when I had a B5 and did multiple analyses with Blackstone. Get the 1.8T enlarged filter, run an OCI of 7500 miles with T6, engine will run forever.

[bobkatkat]

. Get the 1.8T enlarged filter

Now I went back to the 2.7 spec short filters for some reason that I can't seem to find through a search. There was some test that showed the long filter flowed different than the short filter. Anybody else read that? Any links or insight?

[killerkali]

Rotella plus a small bottle of a ZDDP/Zinc additive is what I have always been doing. Still cheaper than the good BP stuff

[wbrunner23]

I use a Mann Filter - W 930/21.

[oppositelock]

Rotella plus a small bottle of a ZDDP/Zinc additive is what I have always been doing. Still cheaper than the good BP stuff

Too much ZDDP is supposedly bad:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=3155862

I think this test shows that Rotella T6 alone has enough wear protection, even at 10K change intervals.

[killerkali]

Too much ZDDP is supposedly bad:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=3155862

I think this test shows that Rotella T6 alone has enough wear protection, even at 10K change intervals.

great now im paranoid. i guess my car burns enough oil to not worry about it, no cats also

[19dabeast85]

Does the 1.8T filter filter down to the same micron particle size as the 2.7t filter? I know I've looked at upsizing filters before and the same brand, same diameter, but longer filters sometimes filter differently. Anyway, worth looking into for sure although with stock size Purolator PureOne filter my motor is filtering fine according to the oil analysis.

BTW for any residual nay-sayers about Rotella T6. My car is stg1 with GIAC (aggressive) and I drive it hard EVERY day....after reaching normal operating temps. That 10k analysis is not from a bunch of granny driving, lol!

[zillarob]

I usually use the w930/21 or w940/25. I really dont think there is a big enough difference between the 2 to worry about other than the larger ones prob wont fit if you have a sandwich plate.

This thread had some good info on the differences http://www.audiworld.com/forums/12v-...stead-2592144/

Might have to look into the w940/44 one of these days.

[rnagy86]

Just run Motul 300V 5w-40 or 10w-40 and be done with it. The 1.8T oil filter (06A 115 561 B) is also perfectly fine as it comes stock with the RS4 due to space issues using the oil cooler sandwich plate.
Hell just buy OEM Audi 502.0 oil, which is actually cheaper than Mobil (here at least).

[oppositelock]

Motul 300V is 2.5x the cost of T6 in the US. T6 has been shown here to work very well, so why spend more?

[rnagy86]

It is an expensive oil, but a very good one, and if you can't spend $120 on an oil change every 5k miles, then you are driving the wrong car. Instead of sending oil for analysis, save that money and buy proper oil. I never heard anyone doing oil analysis in the EU to be honest, I am not saying people don't, I just never heard of it.

[julex]

It is an expensive oil, but a very good one, and if you can't spend $120 on an oil change every 5k miles, then you are driving the wrong car. Instead of sending oil for analysis, save that money and buy proper oil. I never heard anyone doing oil analysis in the EU to be honest, I am not saying people don't, I just never heard of it.

That's because such service is not publicly available? The only reason Blackstone oil reports are available is because that's their business (economies of scale) and thus pricing is very low on this service.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

It is an expensive oil, but a very good one, and if you can't spend $120 on an oil change every 5k miles, then you are driving the wrong car.

That's an absurd thing to say.

T6, Liqui Molly and the likes are great oils (IMO far better then Motul anyway).

[viceprp]

Use T6 on my B5 A4 and sisters B6 A4. Only 1.5k on the b5 but over 30k using on the b6. Never a problem and my heads look mint.

[rnagy86]

That's an absurd thing to say.

T6, Liqui Molly and the likes are great oils (IMO far better then Motul anyway).

Can't say anything about T6, Liqui Molly is fine, but what is your opinion about Motul? Just out of curiosity, don't want to start a flame thread.

[rnagy86]

That's because such service is not publicly available? The only reason Blackstone oil reports are available is because that's their business (economies of scale) and thus pricing is very low on this service.

It is available, I just never heard anyone doing it.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Can't say anything about T6, Liqui Molly is fine, but what is your opinion about Motul? Just out of curiosity, don't want to start a flame thread.

I have no personal expereince with Motul (other then their gear oil which I also don't like very much after using it) but I've heard some things from mechanics that would make me stay away from it. Not going to bother stating them as hearsay is always one thing and experience and tests/hard data is another.

But you shooting down oils that have proven test results vs. blindly saying Motul is better just because it's Motul makes no sense what so ever.

Think about this for a moment... Why did you choose Motul in the first place? Do you just blindly believe a companies marketing?

Testing things is the only way for you to know if the product does what it said it supposed to, there are literally hundreds of tests on T6 (and LM, M1, Castrol and probably even Motul). If oil testing isn't popular where you are then maybe there isn't a market for it (or maybe there is and no one has filled it yet). But dismissing testing because "no one does it" is a LOL.

[BITRBO]

That's an absurd thing to say.

T6, Liqui Molly and the likes are great oils (IMO far better then Motul anyway).

I just picked up a jug of Leichtlauf 5w-40 to give it a shot... Interested to see what temps I'll see at the track.

[rnagy86]

I have no personal expereince with Motul (other then their gear oil which I also don't like very much after using it) but I've heard some things from mechanics that would make me stay away from it. Not going to bother stating them as hearsay is always one thing and experience and tests/hard data is another.

But you shooting down oils that have proven test results vs. blindly saying Motul is better just because it's Motul makes no sense what so ever.

Think about this for a moment... Why did you choose Motul in the first place? Do you just blindly believe a companies marketing?

Testing things is the only way for you to know if the product does what it said it supposed to, there are literally hundreds of tests on T6 (and LM, M1, Castrol and probably even Motul). If oil testing isn't popular where you are then maybe there isn't a market for it (or maybe there is and no one has filled it yet). But dismissing testing because "no one does it" is a LOL.

Sorry if it seemed that I dismissing tests and oils, I did not intend to, everyone is welcome to use whatever they want or test their oils as much as they want.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Sorry if it seemed that I dismissing tests and oils, I did not intend to, everyone is welcome to use whatever they want or test their oils as much as they want.

I'm just saying most people need to have a reason for either using or dismissing an oil. The best possible way to know for sure your motor is in good shape and make sure your oil is protecting your investment is by having your oil analysed a few times (it's all about averages, no test is perfect).

Brand loyalty is one thing and many use their money to buy things because of a Brand's image/history, etc. But there are people that also choose products based on actual facts/research that doesn't come from the horses mouth :)

[19dabeast85]

I drove my allroad 23k miles last year....It makes a big difference to me if I am over spending on oil! If I find an oil that offers not just good but exceptional protection at less than half the price of "European" oils then that's awesome! And I have found that in Rotella t6! I'd be interested in comparing the Rotella to Lubrimoly or whatever it's called. It seems to be the general-consensus best euro spec oil for our motors and I'd like to see just how it performs....maybe next oil change if I feel like spending extra to find out.

[LINDW4LL]

I think it's funny how lots of people are changing their oil at 4k on their daily driver S4/A6 allroad. Ridiculous.

I drove my allroad 23k miles last year....It makes a big difference to me if I am over spending on oil!

Rotella has certainly shown to be a great value!!


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk

[zillarob]

One of the cars I babysit has a little over 250k it and runs the cheapest barrel stuff that is available on 3k intervals.
Scares the hell out of me and always made sure they knew it.

Did the vcg not too long ago and it was one of the cleanest motors I have seen. Cams looked great.
I just keep my mouth shut now

[MikeyB3]

I'm just here to read, but I couldnt resist.

[rnagy86]

I think it's funny how lots of people are changing their oil at 4k on their daily driver S4/A6 allroad. Ridiculous.
Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk

Drive your car constantly at 130 mph on the highway and beat the shit out of it on the street. Then it starts to make sense to change it every 4k miles. This is not north america, we don't go to jail after farting in the car or going 2 miles over the speed limit :D

[Congratulati0ns]

Interesting read.

Also using T6 in the S4 for about 50k miles. Did not realize you guys ran such long intervals. My motor must be having a party because I do a change every 4k religiously. Might double that after reading this.

[y3ti]

There are too many variables involved to just double your oil change interval and think everything will be fine. (It could be perfectly fine, but that's a huge jump based on someone else's experience. In my opinion.)

Different cars in different stages of health. Different owners with different warmup and driving habits.

I think it's best to test your personal oil fills and draw up your own conclusions from there.

[MalibuMafiaV]

I just changed my S4 with this stuff. For the price and what I've seen it's actually pretty damn amazing stuff.

[christianb5s4]

I think it's funny how lots of people are changing their oil at 4k on their daily driver S4/A6 allroad. Ridiculous.

I think it depends on driving style and the type of driving more so than mileage. My commute is 12 miles each way, not bad right? But then you need to realize it takes 1-1.5 hours due to traffic each way. So then lower mileage intervals make more sense because the engine is running for a longer period of time and going through stop and go traffic, regardless of the relatively short driving distance.

I've always thought that in addition to mileage, cars should display "operating hours". For example, ex cop cars. Low-ish miles? Yes. Engine idling continuously all day every day? Yes.

[Racin2redline]

Interesting read.

Also using T6 in the S4 for about 50k miles. Did not realize you guys ran such long intervals. My motor must be having a party because I do a change every 4k religiously. Might double that after reading this.

You can probably go 3x that with the way you drive grandma.

[christianb5s4]

You can probably go 3x that with the way you drive grandma.

I lol'd.