Oil talk: Rotella T6 is not that good after all

[BITRBO]

Like this? http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...d-540-rat.html

"Agreed. I wasted an hour of my time reading through OP's tests, which are largely pointless for most stock C3 cars. When I first saw them, I thought, "Wow, this is great stuff!" but then I rather quickly realized that the naysayers were right. It's simple physics. The test may be fine for roller motors, assuming that a roller motor never exceeds oil shear strength, although I've seen no discussion of that. It seems elementary to me that when you've got 200,000psi in a flat tappet motor and the oil film shears at 75,000psi, or 105,000 for among the best, testing shear strength alone doesn't tell you much that matters in that motor. The oil is not protecting the cam, and the cam would disintegrate if what you were testing was really all that important. Somehow, some way, that oil is protecting the motor through a mechanism you don't test.

I'm sure your tests are perfectly wonderful for something, but in a flat tappet cam world, I candidly don't understand what, really. There seems to be ample evidence that ZDDP essentially creates a sacrificial layer which prevents the cam from being prematurely destroyed. I saw lots and lots of talk that "it doesn't matter how much ZDDP you have, just that there is some in there" but zero analysis or testing by you to demonstrate where that threshold is. That makes about as much sense as saying "it doesn't matter how much grease is in the bearing, just that's there's some in there." It isn't a perfect analog, but it isn't that far off: If you have an industrial bearing that calls for 4 pumps of grease a day, and put one pump in, the bearing is going to die a premature death.

I appreciate the testing, but I don't appreciate all of the self-congratulation and horn-blowing which could easily lead astray those who aren't analytically inclined enough to see through the malarkey. I suspect you are well aware of the short-coming, but have gone so far down the road of claiming that your tests are the sine que non of oil intelligence that you see no way back to backtrack now..."

Are you saying the 2.7 is a flat-tappet C3 motor?

I agree with that poster that RAT overdoes the self-congratulation a bit, but his methodology appears sound and his conclusions agree with many of BtOG's papers. I too have always thought the ASTM temps were a bit odd: 100*F and 150*C??

[Timtheguru]

Haha, no, just wanted to include the comments from the poster in general. :)

[BITRBO]

^No I hear ya. I read through a bunch of that thread, cause it's definitely good to hear both sides of the argument... But oil is like religion or politics: folks tend to get frantic when someone provides evidence contrary to years (or even decades) of belief.

RAT's whole point is that higher concentrations of zinc (and/or phosphorus, etc.) doesn't necessarily equate to higher wear protection (read film shear strength); it's basically the "additive package" that makes the difference... That seems to be the hardest pill for some to swallow.

I just wish he would've done more thermal testing, cause the list isn't nearly as long as the wear test subjects.

[topquarkpc]

like joe@vortex commented on another thread...he switched from rotella to mobil because his eng temp was higher when running at the track with rotella... i've since switched after 'unusually hot' summer here in Seattle noticed my wife's car (w/rotella) was running hotter than my car (w/mobil) and seem to burn more oil than usual... not sure what that means in physical scientific way but after one change back to mobil 1 during the hot spell, wife's car seem to run at about the same temp as mine... again...i'm not performing any calibrated testing here but my semi-calibrated eyes & other senses (including my 6th sense on motor oil) tells me i'm buying more mobil oil...lol

[Timtheguru]

There are still a handful of examples where Mobil 1 0w-40 has destroyed cams and lifters for the 2.7t.. (4k OCI and exclusively M1 0W-40). I'm sure there are formulations they make that are ok, but I won't go back to Mobil 1. I used to run Mobil 1 5W-30 exclusively, but then switched to Rotella T6, based on spectacular Blackstone reports.

After 50k on T6 my cams and lifters looked new still (when I did my CCT gaskets a few months back).

I only DD my S4, so I don't see oil temps going up at all. 225*F max, ever. After a 5k OCI my oil is still clearish.

[LINDW4LL]

lol @ this title. Oil analyses have consistently shown that T6 does a top notch job on the 2.7T.


I don't really understand the "oil wars" on this site. I'm certain that there are dozens of oils that also do a fantastic job, but you see all these people in various threads saying, "You should only use 'X-Brand' oil" and I think it's hilarious.

[Shhmaudi]

My general observation with rotella T6 is my car ran hot (oil temp) during warmer weather and started making some funky noises when it started getting colder. Rotella is hyped up doody IMO. I don't need fancy tests to tell me that lol

Switched to liqui moly 0w40 all weird cold start noises stopped and oil temp stays about 1/4 way on the gauge for the most part

I noticed the high oil temps and my engine was def noisier with T6. Hmm

Oh, and another piece of information that I found interesting, is diesel oils generally have a much lower thermal breakdown limit than gasoline oils, which makes sense since these engines typically run much slower and cooler than gasoline engines do:



I typically hit 270-275* at the track during at 20 min session, which would've been murder for my engine had I ran a diesel formula...

What oil are you running now?

like joe@vortex commented on another thread...he switched from rotella to mobil because his eng temp was higher when running at the track with rotella... i've since switched after 'unusually hot' summer here in Seattle noticed my wife's car (w/rotella) was running hotter than my car (w/mobil) and seem to burn more oil than usual... not sure what that means in physical scientific way but after one change back to mobil 1 during the hot spell, wife's car seem to run at about the same temp as mine... again...i'm not performing any calibrated testing here but my semi-calibrated eyes & other senses (including my 6th sense on motor oil) tells me i'm buying more mobil oil...lol

My engine would burn T6 too. Always felt like i was topping it off till it blew up..

Interesting thread..

FWIW I am running valvoline 5w-40 euro with a Lucas zinc engine break in additive and my motor purrrs like a kitten and when tearing it up ive never seen oil temps get past 250 when running E85..

[Audi9]

These types of threads are always interesting and entertaining haha but there seems to be a bit more intelligence this time around in regards to the subject.

One thing I feel people haven't discussed is the fact that you cannot compare a flat-tappet OHV engine to a modern DOHC engine. The design and wear characteristics are COMPLETELY different and obviously requires different lubrication needs. Best way to prove this is to take a modern oil that meets gf-5 spec and run it in a flat-tappet engine.

[Timtheguru]

Honestly, I just want something that will keep the engine running and not have to worry about it. If I could just pour a bunch of this in I would, if it had the best protection.

[BITRBO]

There are still a handful of examples where Mobil 1 0w-40 has destroyed cams and lifters for the 2.7t.. (4k OCI and exclusively M1 0W-40). I'm sure there are formulations they make that are ok, but I won't go back to Mobil 1. I used to run Mobil 1 5W-30 exclusively, but then switched to Rotella T6, based on spectacular Blackstone reports.

After 50k on T6 my cams and lifters looked new still (when I did my CCT gaskets a few months back).

I only DD my S4, so I don't see oil temps going up at all. 225*F max, ever. After a 5k OCI my oil is still clearish.

Maybe so, but just some food for thought (in addition to my previous post about temps):

"Diesel oils rank overall between number 17 and 116. But, if you omit the highest ranked Diesel oil which is FAR, FAR MORE CAPABLE than all the other Diesel oils, the rest only rank between 65 and 114. The poor wear protection performance of all but the one particular top ranked Diesel oil, makes it very clear that in general, Diesel oils are a poor choice for High Performance gas engines."

lol @ this title. Oil analyses have consistently shown that T6 does a top notch job on the 2.7T.


I don't really understand the "oil wars" on this site. I'm certain that there are dozens of oils that also do a fantastic job, but you see all these people in various threads saying, "You should only use 'X-Brand' oil" and I think it's hilarious.

I don't think the OP ever said which oil to use... He just provided info (via 540RAT) that indicated T6 doesn't stack up nearly as well as many other oils in wear testing. Are you suggesting there isn't any difference between oil brands or formulas?

What oil are you running now?

I used to get my oil changed at the dealership from ~12k miles to ~25k miles, so it was Castrol 5W30 I assume... Maybe Syntech, I can't recall. Since then I began changing my own and started with MOTUL, but then switched to Castrol Syntech 10W30 and then Castrol Syntech when it was "German Blend" (0W30) and now the Edge. I recall running a thicker version of the Castrol at one point, and temps definitely dropped when switching to the German Blend...

These types of threads are always interesting and entertaining haha but there seems to be a bit more intelligence this time around in regards to the subject.

One thing I feel people haven't discussed is the fact that you cannot compare a flat-tappet OHV engine to a modern DOHC engine. The design and wear characteristics are COMPLETELY different and obviously requires different lubrication needs. Best way to prove this is to take a modern oil that meets gf-5 spec and run it in a flat-tappet engine.

Agreed, but I still think the results are valid to our application:

"The “Wear Protection” test data here DIRECTLY APPLIES to flat tappet lobe/lifter interfaces (no matter how wicked the engine), pushrod tip/rocker arm interfaces, non-roller tip rocker arm/valve stem tip interfaces, distributor gear/cam gear interfaces, mechanical fuel pump pushrod tip/cam eccentric interfaces, and all highly loaded engine interfaces."

[spd579]

Test looks to be a little incomplete.........I'll stick with my proven Rotella for now.

[slow ride]

A guy on the other forum is over 300k miles with stock turbos using Rotella t6 for a good portion of those miles with good Blackstone reports at high mile intervals. I have owned my car since 2002 and run the 5w40/t6 for the last 6-7 years with 2 changes a year and before that Mobile 0w40 for the most part and 0w30 for a few early changes. People doing oil analysis offer some of the best input on how the engine is doing with a given oil, that is if you are not sending your own oil out. Haven't seen a bad Rotella report for a S4 or any make really. My corvette has a digital oil temp reading and I didn't notice any temp change going from 0w40 Mobile to Rotella in the past. I can't say I was really looking, but nothing stands out in my head.

Lots of racing oils ranking low in the test above and that's just nuts. I'd love to see the inside of some engines run hard on circle tracks or road course events on some of the higher ranking oils that beat out the racing formulas. You are not going to find a engine builder requesting someone to use Mobile one 5w30, just not going to happen. I'd love to see some more testing on this subject, but I'm content with my perfect running 145k mile S4 (runs to knock on wood lol).

[Seerlah]

Just an FYI, those oils are on that VW/Audi approved list because those oil companies paid to be on them. I used to run nothing but Amsoil and they are on no approved list (that I know of) because they refuse to pay to be on them. But...they have one of the best oils on the market. Still run their tranny and rear diff oil. But the motor oil started to get a little too expensive when I became a student (when I switched).

[Racin2redline]

I think people are looking at this test wrong.. Obviously noone can discredit the Blackstone reports for the 2.7 running rotella. Most are stellar. This test is under maximum tolerances under most extreme conditions
All that was said was under extreme circumstances the rotella didn't perform as most OCI blackstone tests results would lead you to believe. That doesn't mean its a bad oil.its not like youd push your motor to the absolute limit every time you drive. I think to achieve most of those test tolerances you'd have to be in the desert at 120F running 35psi non stop for hours lol.
It works perfectly fine for what most of us ask of it.

[Seerlah]

If I tracked my car, I def would not be running Rotella, Mobil1, Castrol, or any off the shelf oil for that matter. Mine would be coming in via delivery man unless I knew a local distributor.

[OldCowboy]

Here's my thoughts on 540Rats tests. I don't think they mean squat. He throws out a lot of words with absolutely no way to verify the truthfulness of his claims. I'm thinking he's using a 4-ball test which has been shown to be virtually worthless in assessing oil protection. And what about all these important people who have endorsed him but won't let him use their names? He claims to be a member of SAE. Then why hasn't he published his research in the SAE professional publications? And what about the wear standards oils have to meet to be certified API SL/SM/SN or ILSAC GF5/GF4 or ACEA A3/B4? Are they meaningless?

Frankly, I think he's a bag of wind that likes to pat himself on the back.

[Spike00513]

What do you all think about this?

[lvevo]

Also some more interesting information on oil usage. It's on a different motor (4G63 from the Evos) but it's still informative regarding thrust bearing damage.

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...otor%20Oil.pdf

This was Forced Performance's way of getting the word out there that their turbo failures where not defective items but just customers using the wrong oil. I wouldn't use this as an example of thrust bearing info because they used a cooper journal bearing that only liked high ZDDP oils. Other companies have come out with similar output stock appearing turbos that do not require high ZDDP oil like Forfed Performance does.

[Jmills]

This was Forced Performance's way of getting the word out there that their turbo failures where not defective items but just customers using the wrong oil. I wouldn't use this as an example of thrust bearing info because they used a cooper journal bearing that only liked high ZDDP oils. Other companies have come out with similar output stock appearing turbos that do not require high ZDDP oil like Forfed Performance does.

Just posted it as additional information for people.

[landfill]

Have any of you spoken to sean @ SRM about his oil recommendations. When I was about to run his turbos
he was telling me that for his turbo's and plenty others we should be running a 20w50 full synthetic oil. He
also emailed me a reference chart from FP forced performance and what they recommend for other imports
which was 20w50.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Have any of you spoken to sean @ SRM about his oil recommendations. When I was about to run his turbos
he was telling me that for his turbo's and plenty others we should be running a 20w50 full synthetic oil. He
also emailed me a reference chart from FP forced performance and what they recommend for other imports
which was 20w50.

If your turbos are dictating what oil you're putting in your motor then you're doing it wrong and the turbos are junk. Simple as that.

[landfill]

^^^Someone already stated above that for the evo's it was originally recommended 5w40 i think and after later testing from FP
found out that 20w50 actually suited the application a lot better. I would imagine something similar for our cars. Audi probably had
no idea there would be people with 700 whp and huge turbos running around 14 years later. IDK I could be all wrong?

[slow ride]

I see where he is coming from, but 20w50 is a little much in northern states in normal driving conditions. Generally you would build the bottom end of the engine with oil that thick in mind with larger clearance, etc or be tracking the crap out of the car with really high oil temps. I'm sure something a little lighter with similar properties would be fine in cooler climates.

[landfill]

It was a year ago already since I spoke to him but he might have also asked me where I live and what is main purpose of my build.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

^^^Someone already stated above that for the evo's it was originally recommended 5w40 i think and after later testing from FP
found out that 20w50 actually suited the application a lot better. I would imagine something similar for our cars. Audi probably had
no idea there would be people with 700 whp and huge turbos running around 14 years later. IDK I could be all wrong?

Oil viscosity has everything to do with supplying lubrication at proper pressure by the way of bearing clearances. It's generally the only reason to change viscosity.

The test from FP is just FP covering their ass for their turbos probably due to their bearing designs. Nothing more nothing less.

Again, spec'ing oil viscosity by what your turbo needs is stupid. Your motors clearances and oil spec is FAR more important.

[BITRBO]

Oil viscosity has everything to do with supplying lubrication at proper pressure by the way of bearing clearances. It's generally the only reason to change viscosity.

The test from FP is just FP covering their ass for their turbos probably due to their bearing designs. Nothing more nothing less.

Again, spec'ing oil viscosity by what your turbo needs is stupid. Your motors clearances and oil spec is FAR more important.

^This.

I don't care if 20W50 is KY for my engine... If it's too thick/viscous it isn't going to reach everything and lubricate properly, which is the whole point.

Remember, MOST of wear occurs during start-up before the oil has had a chance to circulate. I sure as heck wouldn't be running a 20W oil if I lived up north, especially during the winter.

[julex]

You want to generally stay at xxW40 or higher for a single fact that these weights ARE NOT REGULATED within a specific service class as far as anti wear additives go. Only W30 and lower, aka "energy saving" weights have mandates on ZDDP etc content to reduce pollution.

What I am saying is that while 0w20 (and 5w20) and 0w30 (and 5w30, 10w30) in SN service (newest) have to stay under 800ppm of ZDDP (which is borderline and probably not enough to protect flat tappet cams), 0w40 (and 5w40, 10w40, etc) and higher are not under that mandate so they usually sport 1000-1100 PPM of ZDDP and more.

This creates a strange situation where say Mobil 1 0w40 has enough ZDDP for our cars, same oil in 0w30 eight is a completely different additive package with not enough ZDDP in it...

This is applicable to any oil out there that has a certification. If the oil doesn't care for certification, they can put anything they want in it (but not lead etc) PPM wise and sell for off-road purposes...

[oppositelock]

SRM also has some BS requirement that turbos be professionally installed or the warranty is invalid. Sorry, but I'm probably going to be more diligent about making sure they get primed properly than a lot of professionals who are just trying to beat the clock.

[LINDW4LL]

SRM also has some BS requirement that turbos be professionally installed or the warranty is invalid.

Many turbo manufacturers have that stipulation in their warranty clause. I think it's smart.




Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk

[Racin2redline]

I'm pretty sure 0w30 was factory fill in our cars. Why would they use an oil that didn't have proper additives or expect it to not in 10 years or so?

[julex]

Basically there is no warranty on any turbos since they can choose any of the excuses they want, end of story.

[julex]

I'm pretty sure 0w30 was factory fill in our cars. Why would they use an oil that didn't have proper additives or expect it to not in 10 years or so?

It was factory fill 15 YEARS AGO when current oil service was something like SJ or something that had no restrictions on additives, or at least very high thresholds by today's standards. When you buy any new formulation oil today, you buy SM or SN with vastly reduced ZDDP additive UNLESS it is 40+ weight which has to only conform to cleaning additives part of SM/SN standard. Notice that while Castrol Edge 0w40 is VW 402 certified, lighter weighs are not, exactly due to this little known nuance, namely that lighter weights don't have enough ZDDP for VW/Audi to approve oil for 502 service.

This is US state of affair. EU is different and you can get many lighter oils with 502 certification.

And I am talking about run of the mill stuff you can get at walmart for $22 a 5L jug. If money is no objection, you can use any euro oil and pay $50 a 5L jug and get that W30 with 502 certification... OR get a cheap wally modern US approved oil and dump few ounces of ZDDP additives to it.

[Racin2redline]

Ah I see. Thanks!

[OldCowboy]

It was factory fill 15 YEARS AGO when current oil service was something like SJ or something that had no restrictions on additives, or at least very high thresholds by today's standards. When you buy any new formulation oil today, you buy SM or SN with vastly reduced ZDDP additive UNLESS it is 40+ weight which has to only conform to cleaning additives part of SM/SN standard. Notice that while Castrol Edge 0w40 is VW 402 certified, lighter weighs are not, exactly due to this little known nuance, namely that lighter weights don't have enough ZDDP for VW/Audi to approve oil for 502 service.

This is US state of affair. EU is different and you can get many lighter oils with 502 certification.

And I am talking about run of the mill stuff you can get at walmart for $22 a 5L jug. If money is no objection, you can use any euro oil and pay $50 a 5L jug and get that W30 with 502 certification... OR get a cheap wally modern US approved oil and dump few ounces of ZDDP additives to it.

Actually, Castrol Edge 0W-30 European Formula is VW/Audi 502 certified. It's available at most auto parts stores.

[oppositelock]

Many turbo manufacturers have that stipulation in their warranty clause. I think it's smart.

Smart for them and their bottom line, sure. Not so great for the guy who likes wrenching on his own stuff, does everything he's supposed to, only to have the turbo to eat shit due to a manufacturing defect, and he's up the creek without a paddle. Of course the factory in China isn't going to take defective turbos back from the vendor either, but that's part of the cost of doing business with China.

Basically there is no warranty on any turbos since they can choose any of the excuses they want, end of story.

I guess you can say that for any performance part. I would expect reputable vendors to warranty damage not obviously caused by the user, but the automotive performance aftermarket isn't renowned for customer service.

[Fourplay]

This test is completely unscientific and garbage.

Testing the film strength of brand new oil at operating temps for 30 seconds and claiming it shows an accurate picture of what oils are good/bad is pretty damn stupid. The reason Zinc/Phosphorus (ZDDP) is used in oils is because it forms a sacrificial layer in the incredibly thin oil film (we're talking .0005"/10 microns or less). That's why ZDDP has been used for years and years - it works.

Another reason this test is dumb is that basically all of the oils were failing at 90,000 psi, when you'll see pressures of 300k+ psi depending on the engine. Based on this guy's results, every engine should blow up or have severe wear. Not how it works at all.

[Schläfer]

Blah blah blah, is this a good oil or not cause I am friends with a guy who can get me a great price.

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...?code=EFMQT-EA

[julex]

Actually, Castrol Edge 0W-30 European Formula is VW/Audi 502 certified. It's available at most auto parts stores.

Expensive. Relatively speaking. New Castrol Edge 0w40 with Titanium is also VW 502 certified and so it Mobil 1 0w40, both available for $22ish at walmarts on every corner. Catrol GC is much more than that and only sold in 1q bottles for something like $7 a pop if you're lucky to find it as not every chain auto store stocks it... and you need about 6-7 to fill the crankcase with new filter in...

[julex]

Blah blah blah, is this a good oil or not cause I am friends with a guy who can get me a great price.

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...?code=EFMQT-EA

Some people swear by Amsoil, I have no experience with their oils first hand...

[julex]

This test is completely unscientific and garbage.

Testing the film strength of brand new oil at operating temps for 30 seconds and claiming it shows an accurate picture of what oils are good/bad is pretty damn stupid. The reason Zinc/Phosphorus (ZDDP) is used in oils is because it forms a sacrificial layer in the incredibly thin oil film (we're talking .0005"/10 microns or less). That's why ZDDP has been used for years and years - it works.

Another reason this test is dumb is that basically all of the oils were failing at 90,000 psi, when you'll see pressures of 300k+ psi depending on the engine. Based on this guy's results, every engine should blow up or have severe wear. Not how it works at all.

Now it is 300k PSI? Where are you pulling these numbers out of?

The only place where anything approaching "an impressive number" of PSIs it at camshaft lobe to lifter contact point because our engines are still using antique flat tappet tech. I would be interested in actual article/research showing (if only theoretical) what the pressures in that area really are. Do you have that as I cannot dig out anything that looks legit, only hear say and misquotes everywhere.

However, since even with ZDDP cams are not expected to last forever, there is always some metal to metal contact, if only softened by ZDDP, and scarring and that's what he measured. It is not to say that once scarring takes place and ZDDP activates that the protection will go up with high ZDDP oil. I know that even my pre-lubed cams with 3k ppm ZDDP souped up oil still experienced some wear for first few thousands of miles as the stuff was wearing into each other. This tells me that the oil film indeed breaks in there and his measurements seem to make sense.

When I read that article, the only lesson I take from there is:
Choose oil from the top of list BUT MAKE SURE that it is a formula with shit load of ZDDP in it most importantly it is VW 502 approved (which means lots of wear protection) for use with tappet cams!

Thus, I would not use that Mobil 5w30 even though it has seemingly high PSI resistance only because it doesn't have enough ZDDP in it since it falls under FULL SN regulations for ZDDP additive. Mobil 1 0w40 also falls under SN regulations but not for ZDDP additive since it is over 30 weight.

GC is SL group for exmaple, different regulations and has proper amount of ZDDP even though it is 0w30.