Fun With Cam Chain Adjusters. What's your speculation??

[Audi body]

Old guy is so good, he helps him self!

[Wet0willy01]

Replaced my 2nd aftermarket VVT with a used OEM from a known working head. New chain guides installed. Measuring 0* and 22* respectively. Still throwing the crank/cam correlation code. Timing is 100% correct. Oil pressure is in spec at idle, oil pump pick up is new. This is getting annoying.

[old guy]

Replaced my 2nd aftermarket VVT with a used OEM from a known working head. New chain guides installed. Measuring 0* and 22* respectively. Still throwing the crank/cam correlation code. Timing is 100% correct. Oil pressure is in spec at idle, oil pump pick up is new. This is getting annoying.

That is very strange. Are you getting as P0340 or P0341?

Obviously your timing is correct since you are seeing the proper cam phase range from 0° to 22°. I wonder if possibly there is a delay between the cam adjuster activation/deactivation and the correct cam position. Take a drive with someone watching block 91 and see if the cam position immediately follows the cam adjuster on/off switch. If something is hanging up I could see how that would cause an incorrect correlation code.

I'll keep thinking about it to see if I can come up with some other explanation.

Good luck Andrew!

[diagnosticator]

As I have said before, the Cam Correlation DTC is an timing error between the crankshaft timing and the intake camshaft timing. There is no other error or meaning intended with this DTC.

If the intake cam timing is outside of the allowed timing tolerance +/- compared to the crankshaft, the DTC will occur. There is no other situation that can cause this.

Try repositioning the cam timing so that it is on the other side of any tolerance stack up in the cam timing drive.

The actual cam timing is most likely spot-on, but the ECU is not sensing that via the crankshaft and camshaft position sensors.

Another cause for this DTC is a dirty oil pressure control solenoid valve on the intake cam timing adjuster assembly.

[old guy]

I agree with you on the incorrect correlation code. It can come from the cam/crank timing being slightly off as you have pointed out. It can also happen if the cam isn't always positioning properly. That is exactly what happened to me. The cam was capable of going from 0° to 22° but was occasionally sticking around the 10° position long enough to give me a DTC for an incorrect correlation.

I was able to observe this activity my monitoring MB-91.

[Wet0willy01]

Wouldn't in see a negative correction factor if I was on the "opposite end" of the timing tolerance? In reference to MB90.

I watched while driving and monitored on vagscope. It didn't seem to lag. But I'll try monitoring a bit more.

- - - Updated - - -

Edit MB90+91

[old guy]

There is an acceptable range at either end of the intake cam position. It’s spelled out in post 114 in this thread. If your cam position isn’t operating within this range you will get a DTC. Or if your cam is occasionally sticking between the two values you will get a DTC. That was my issue.

What I don’t know is whether the cam position shown in MB-91 is simply in relation to the cam position sensor or it is shown in relation to the overall cam advance as referenced from the crank position.

If it is simply the relationship of the cam to the cam position sensor your cam/crank timing could be off a little and you would still be showing the correct 0° to 22° cam movement. However, you could still get an incorrect allocation code since the ECM would not be seeing the proper relationship between the cam/crank position sensors. This is what John was referring to.

If the cam position shown in MB-91 is in the overall relationship to the crank position your 0° to 22° would indicate that your cam/crank timing is spot on and the issue is probably similar to mine where the cam didn’t always fully advance or fully retard.

[mdewii23]

OK so I have some error codes I can;'t seem to figure out where to start looking for the problem. So here I am. My error codes are as follows.

Fault log report generated by Torque for Android
=================================================
Vehicle VIN: Not present
Vehicle Manufacturer: Unknown
Vehicle Calibration ID: Not present
Current Fault Log
------------------
P0050: HO2S Heater Control Circuit (Bank 2 Sensor 1)
P0160: O2 Sensor Circuit No Activity Detected (Bank 2 Sensor 2)
P0345: Camshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit (Bank 2)
P0011: "A" Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced or System Performance
(Bank 1)
Pending Fault Log
------------------
P0300: Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0304: Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
P0305: Cylinder 5 Misfire Detected
P0306: Cylinder 6 Misfire Detected
Historic Fault Log
------------------
ECU reports no historic faults
Other discovered fault codes
(possibly pending, current or manufacturer specific)
----------------------------------------------------
ECU reports no other fault codes logged
End of report.

Any help would be great.
Thanks

[Sam_]

This doesn't give me much confidence. I went for the EuropaParts tensioner based on "made in the same factory" but I also got an oil pump from them which didn't look great at all and came with the same description.

However, looking at images of the Hudson tensioner, it looks identical (markings, colors, etc) to the one sold by EuropaParts so I guess that's a relief? I don't have an OEM one to replace the pads on as I'm building a new engine to replace my current one so I can sell it as-is.

[Sam_]

Can't seem to edit but I was basing the comparison on these pics:
https://www.ecstuning.com/Search/058109088k/ES3139054/

[MikTip]

https://www.europaparts.com/cam-chai...58109088k.html

[Y888]

After reading this topic im returning fcp economy tensioner,i dont want to do things twice.
Europa parts claims they have oe supplier for 250$ but they dont know name of the manufacturer :)
Europa parts tensioner is made in Turkey.

[EuroxS4]

Anything to do with timing always go OEM if the tensioner hasn't failed you can replace the pads only.After market tensioners are junk!!Ive also seen the screen come out of the tensioners and debris gets lodged I. The tensioner passages causing it to fail.


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[Y888]

Would you say the same thing for the chain?
Iwis is 35$ and oem is 145$

[EuroxS4]

Would you say the same thing for the chain?
Iwis is 35$ and oem is 145$

Definitely.However your might be able to get a better deal at a german auto parts store online.9 times out of 10 they are cheaper than the dealer as they sell the same parts made by the same manufacturer

[Y888]

"This an original equipment continuous chain, not an aftermarket chain with master link which can come apart. Two per engine."
http://www.germanautoparts.com/productdisplay/144484

[danidelev]

I have noticed recently that on a cold start I hear a ticking noise for less than a second. And it happens from time to time only. I scanned my car and found the same error as oldguy.

16395 - Bank 1: Camshaft A (Intake)
P0011 - 002 - Retard Setpoint not Reached (Over-Advanced) - Intermittent

Cleared the code and it is not showing up again.

I also did few logs and here are the results:

1st gear pull:


3rd gear pull:


It is very strange that the intake cam stays closed all the time. The only time I saw it ON and 22kw was for less than a second when I was cruising on fifth gear.

Is it time to change the cam chain adjuster or something else might be causing it? I did the timing belt and all its tensioners + new oil, filters, etc. like 1000 miles ago and everythying is perfect.

[old guy]

The tensioner itself has nothing to do with it. The ECU determines when to activate the CCT. I am going to assume you made that log under heavy throttle. Do the same thing again but log under moderate throttle. I suspect you will see a bit more activity.

[danidelev]

Thanks old guy. When I said tensioner I've meant the cam chain adjuster (corrected in my previous post). I will do some logs under moderate throttle and report back. Also on a cold start the cam adjuster intake status is always OFF, and in post #32 I've read that it should be ON.

[old guy]

Thanks old guy. When I said tensioner I've meant the cam chain adjuster (corrected in my previous post). I will do some logs under moderate throttle and report back. Also on a cold start the cam adjuster intake status is always OFF, and in post #32 I've read that it should be ON.

Cam Tensioner, Cam Chain Adjuster, CCT are all descriptions of the same thing. Is your engine running at the fast idle and the SAI pump running on the cold start? That would be the only time the CCT would run on a cold start. The start up criteria varies with temperature.

[danidelev]

It is pretty hot out here these days. +15degrees C . The engine was runing at fast idle at around 1200ish rmp but i didn't hear the SAI pump.

[old guy]

It is pretty hot out here these days. +15degrees C . The engine was runing at fast idle at around 1200ish rmp but i didn't hear the SAI pump.

If the pump isn't being turned on you probably won't see the cam adjuster activated. Do another log with moderate throttle input and let's see what happens.

[danidelev]

If the pump isn't being turned on you probably won't see the cam adjuster activated. Do another log with moderate throttle input and let's see what happens.

I did some logging during the weekend. So as soon as i start the car the cam adjustment turns on and stays around 20KW for a while. After the idle RPM goes to normal the cam adjustment turns off and stays at +-1.



http://s34.photobucket.com/user/dani...tml?sort=3&o=0

Afterthat I've monitored block 91 on moderate accelaration at almost every gear and the cam adjustment doesn't turn on at any time.

[old guy]

Interesting. You know it works since you can see it functioning in your cold start log. But for whatever reason the ECU isn't "seeing" whatever combination of inputs it wants to see to activate it otherwise. I will poke around in the ME7 strategy guide this evening and see what I can find.

[fR3ZNO]

Another very helpful thread courtesy of old guy.

I think I'm headed down a similar path. Had the original tensioner make the classic diesel sound, replaced with a claimed to be "OEM" tensioner. Now, 10 months later, I'm getting rough running and 16395/P0011.

I already have a replacement tensioner on the way, but after reading this I'm hesitant to put another in. I'm tempted to try replacing only the solenoid from a spare Genuine OEM tensioner I have based on what I find after some troubleshooting with VCDS.

[fR3ZNO]

Bump, I got a warranty replacement from FCP but I went with the Febi Bilstein brand instead of Hudson which was what I installed originally. (They looked identical, probably from the same factory just rebranded and priced accordingly)

Now the P0011 code is gone, but I'm still getting similar symptoms. Car will stutter/jerk lightly while driving and stall out randomly while idling. Only codes I've been able to pull are random/multiple misfire (intermittent, no light on dash).

I also had someone drive while I logged measuring blocks 015 and 093 (misfire counter and cam adjustment on/off and angle). Adjustment was in spec, 0 degree when off and 20 degrees when activated. However, car still had a slight jerk while driving as if it was a misfire even though there were none on the counter. It almost stalled while idling as well, but won't if you keep the RPMs up.

Now I'm stuck. Not sure if I should just install a spare OEM tensioner or try to see if this issue is unrelated to the tensioner. I think it's the tensioner since the car ran fine with the replacement tensioner up until I started getting P0011.

[fR3ZNO]

That is very strange. Are you getting as P0340 or P0341?

Obviously your timing is correct since you are seeing the proper cam phase range from 0° to 22°. I wonder if possibly there is a delay between the cam adjuster activation/deactivation and the correct cam position. Take a drive with someone watching block 91 and see if the cam position immediately follows the cam adjuster on/off switch. If something is hanging up I could see how that would cause an incorrect correlation code.

I'll keep thinking about it to see if I can come up with some other explanation.

Good luck Andrew!

One thing I do recall seeing is that the adjustment angle would briefly sit at 9 degrees sometimes when the cam adjuster was turned on. I'll have to post up the log later.

I agree with you on the incorrect correlation code. It can come from the cam/crank timing being slightly off as you have pointed out. It can also happen if the cam isn't always positioning properly. That is exactly what happened to me. The cam was capable of going from 0° to 22° but was occasionally sticking around the 10° position long enough to give me a DTC for an incorrect correlation.

I was able to observe this activity my monitoring MB-91.

I would guess it could take a few drive cycles before this code sets if the tensioner is sticking?

[old guy]

One thing I do recall seeing is that the adjustment angle would briefly sit at 9 degrees sometimes when the cam adjuster was turned on. I'll have to post up the log later.

This is similar to what I experienced. I was able to drive with my laptop hooked up while my son observed the cam position. It stuck several times around 10° advance.

I would guess it could take a few drive cycles before this code sets if the tensioner is sticking?

I could clear the code and then observe a pending code a few times before it gave a full DTC/CEL. You situation sounds pretty much the same that I experienced.

[fR3ZNO]

This is similar to what I experienced. I was able to drive with my laptop hooked up while my son observed the cam position. It stuck several times around 10° advance.



I could clear the code and then observe a pending code a few times before it gave a full DTC/CEL. You situation sounds pretty much the same that I experienced.

Thanks for the response.

Yeah, sounds like a similar issue. I wish I would have just put in the good, used OEM one I had. Figured I'd be better off with a new one... ugh.

Time to wait for new tensioner pads to come in.

[old guy]

Thanks for the response.

Yeah, sounds like a similar issue. I wish I would have just put in the good, used OEM one I had. Figured I'd be better off with a new one... ugh.

Time to wait for new tensioner pads to come in.

Yep.... BTDT.......

[fR3ZNO]

Yep.... BTDT.......

haha yep, should have known better after reading through this thread. oh well, c'est la vie

[GTA]

I didn't want to start another thread for the CCT so I'll hi-jack this one. I've read through this whole thread and want to know if / when I should change out the Tensioner pads/shoes. I assume it's all original and I'm at about 245,000KM (~150,000M).

I'd figure it's about time to give this some TLC as there are no codes thrown nor any idle or drivability issues. It's not loud nor making diesel sounds on start-up, just the chain noise at the back of the head (1.8T), like you would hear if you dragged a long chain along a piece of plastic. Although I do hear some lifter-related noises at WOT but I'm not WOT most of the time the way I drive.

I've done some initial troubleshooting according to earlier posts from OG , ryanj and others and here's what I've discovered:

- Driving in first gear on moderate to middling throttle, Measuring Block 91 is: OFF -3 to 0, ON +22 to +23.

- Measured resistance of around 17ohms between two pins on CCT; specification range is between 10 to 18 ohms, so the CCT coil is within specs.

- At idle, I measured +Batt at Pin 1 (upper pin) with reference to ground. Between pins 1 & 2 is around 7.6V, and the wiring diagram confirms that pin 1 is reference +batt voltage and pin 2 goes into the ECU, so it is pin 2 that controls the CCT to turn it on and off.

So everything is good, except for the chain noise and the lifter (cam follower) noise. So at this point, I should go ahead and just change out the wear pads on the CCT, valve cover gaskets and CCT gaskets? Should I even bother replacing the chain? As someone mentioned, it is rather expensive from Audi.

Could the lifter knock at WOT (and ONLY at WOT) be related to the CCT? I'd be curious to know. Or should I budget for some lifters 'while I'm in there'?

[old guy]

It wouldn't be a bad idea to replace the wear pads but I wouldn't mess with replacing the chain. I replaced mine and when I compared the old one to the new one there was no measurable difference in the length, sag or link diameters.

[GTA]

I kinda figured that would be the case. Of all the CCT replacements I've seen online, I don't believe anyone had bothered to change out the chain.

Pads and gaskets it is then. Someone on the forum has kindly donated the CCT compression tool so that's a bonus.

[daught]

As a final update, my Hudson CCT had close to 100 000km on it when my car got totalled. It worked perfectly.

[MikTip]

What do you guys think of this? $180 for a supposedly OEM unit.
http://www.europaparts.com/cam-chain...58109088k.html

I have the Europa one in my Audi now....works good!

[jpulll]

So spring is coming and I’m doing my usual TLC and I noticed an odd sound from the engine bay, that’s for another thread though, and I noticed some oil around the solenoid on the CCT. I tried rubbing the oil off and found I was able to spin the solenoid on the CCT. I unplugged the connector and no change in idle.

Am I thinking too hard like when unplugging your MAF to see if you have a defective sensor. Does idle change when you unplug the connector. Also does the solenoid spin. Can anyone confirm/replicate?


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[old guy]

The solenoid is bolted to the body of the CCT with two screws so it should not be able to spin around. Check for missing screws.

Unplugging the CCT at a warm idle will not change anything since the CCT would not be activated at that time.

[jpulll]

The solenoid is bolted to the body of the CCT with two screws so it should not be able to spin around. Check for missing screws.

Unplugging the CCT at a warm idle will not change anything since the CCT would not be activated at that time.

Hmmm that is solid, the white part where the connector would sit is where it’s spinning freely.


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[old guy]

I have an OEM one on the shelf and it doesn't spin. Possibly your solenoid overheated at some point and the plastic melted a little internally?