Fun With Cam Chain Adjusters. What's your speculation??

[old guy]

As long as you have 16 links between the cam notches you are good to go. The alignment on the cam cap pointers will vary depending upon the position of the cam position actuator.

[daught]

Thought so. So what about the slightly pressed valve? That going to be an issue when reinstalling?

[old guy]

Thought so. So what about the slightly pressed valve? That going to be an issue when reinstalling?

Not at all. Just maintain. The 16 links between the cam notches.

[daught]

New tensioner is in. I had to loosen the exhaust cam too. Then it popped right out.

I still have a faint rattle. I have to turn off heating to beatly hear it. Dunno if it's the chain or the lifters. When the timing belt comes up, I will probably change the chain and sprockets.

[msharifi]

Here's the deal......

Back in May of this year my engine developed a nasty noise. Long story short, it ended up being a defective water pump bearing. During the process of finding the issue I replaced the cam chain adjuster. I figured at 190k+ miles it was a reasonable PM to perform. So the timing chain adjuster was replaced along with a complete TB service (TB, water pump, TB tensioner, idler pulley etc). The OEM timing chain adjuster was still functioning OK but upon removal the wear pads had some significant wear. Life was good for three months.

Then in August I started getting a P0011 and a P0012 indicating an over-advanced or over-retarded intake cam. Since I never had these codes in the previous 190k+ miles I had to assume a defective cam chain adjuster. I contacted the supplier and had the adjuster replaced under warranty. Life was good for another three months.

Then last Friday I put ~600 miles on the car. I stopped at the Hospital on the way home to visit a coworker and when I went out and started the car I was graced with a CEL for a P0011. I reset it and on the trip from the Hospital to home (10 miles) I was the graced with a P0012. (over advanced / over-retarded cam position codes). Since then I no longer get a P0011/0012 but I do get a daily P0340 and I have a bad idle with reduced vacuum. My speculation is that the cam adjuster is now stuck in the middle between full retard and full advance. Consequently the ECM doesn't know what the hell is going on since the cam position sensor can't tell if the cam is at full advance or full retard. So it gives me a P0340 position sensor malfunction code since it doesn't know what else to do.

I should mention that I had a spare cam position sensor and changing it made no difference. The cam position sensor is getting a 5v trigger signal as it should and the cam adjuster solenoid is getting a 12v activation signal as per spec. I checked the resistance on the OEM solenoid activator as well as the replacement solenoid activator and both were at 13Ω resistance. According the the Bentley it should be between 5-8Ω at 20°C. Technically it is out of range but when I apply a 12v signal I can hear both of them activate so I don't think that is an issue.

So what are the chances that I received two defective cam adjusters? Although it seems highly unlikely I am running out of things to check. So here is what I am going to do this weekend. I ordered and received replacement wear pads for the OEM cam adjuster. Tomorrow or Sunday (weather permitting) I am going to replace the replacement cam adjuster with the OEM one and see if the problem goes away.

So wadda you think?? Will it fix the problem? Do I have some other issue that I need to address? I'm getting pretty tired of replacing the same part over and over again. All suggestions are appreciated. Bad adjuster? Lightning strikes twice in the same place or something else going on?

If its not Audi Brand then its defective. I'm on my 2nd replacement and I get the error code along with a nasty sound. my next replacement will be from Audi.

[msharifi]

I reused my OEM cam adjuster. I just replaced the wear pads. Lesson learned. Yes I would recommend just replacing the wear pads and putting the OEM one back in. I was doing what I though made sense and replacing the cam adjuster as a PM for a high mileage engine. Apparently it wasn't such a smart idea after all.

When you reused old Cam adjuster after you replaced the pads it was fine? I still have my old one thinking to do what you did if replacing the pads will fix the error code.

[daught]

I have no codes with hudson, yet... fingers crossed.

[msharifi]

I have no codes with hudson, yet... fingers crossed.

Old unit just new pads and no codes?

[old guy]

When you reused old Cam adjuster after you replaced the pads it was fine? I still have my old one thinking to do what you did if replacing the pads will fix the error code.

That is correct. Keep in mind my OEM one was performing fine. I thought I was doing a good thing replacing it after 200k miles. I wasn't getting any error codes until after I replaced it with an aftermarket unit. Then the warrantied one also gave me a code. Went back to the OEM one with new pads and now life is good again.

[daught]

Old unit just new pads and no codes?

Complete unit, made by hudson sold by FCP.

My rattle is gone after a few days now. Dunno maybe it took the chain a few days to get properly lubed with the new unit. I noticed the tensioners have an oil port that lube the chain. Maybe that was not functioning properly on my old tensioner.

[daught]

Rattle is back. It's driving me nuts because it's not audible with the hood open. It's only audible in the car or when I put my ear by the wipers.

[BlazinB5]

i haven't changed anything yet (too busy with work/school), but i have noticed a new sound come up.. is this ticking (1 tick per second) sound related to the cam chain tensioner pad possible breaking into pieces?

edit: i have no idea why i didn't record the back of the motor

[spindoctor]

Rattle is back. It's driving me nuts because it's not audible with the hood open. It's only audible in the car or when I put my ear by the wipers.

Not good.

How did you go? Did you end up going back to OEM?

[daught]

Oh it's NOT the CCT. It's valve lifters. They are rarely noisy, but when they are they piss me off. Here is something weird. After that cct replacement I installed a oil pressure sender. Meanwhile I was doing an engine flush with my usual totella 0-40 and seafoam. My plan was to drive 200 km and dump my oil. The oil tube shattered so I drain my oil to make sure no pieces went in. I filled with castrol 5-30 and half a bottle of sea foam. I drove 1000 km and NOT one tick. I put rotella 0-40 back in. I caught it ticking once since then. An improvement.

Dunno what makes it better, lighter oil or sea foam. It seems to be better on rotella after the flush so my guess is the seafoam might have helped.

[spindoctor]

Phew, so i suppose it's safe to say the hudsons are ok to use.

Thanks for that. I have a better option now

[daught]

Yes, no noise and the v-tech works :p

[Wet0willy01]

Now I get the camshaft sensor code daily. Luckily I have a spare vvt I can toss in.

Put my spare VVT in. Still throwing codes. Swapped sensors. Oil pressure is fine. Next I'll swap the trigger window and check my wiring.

[lyates1987]

If the only symptom is a rattle on cold starts then yes I think it would be worth trying a pad replacement first. Pads plus gaskets should be no more than $50.

I see about 3 different color pads on ebay. Any idea which color is best?

[old guy]

I see about 3 different color pads on ebay. Any idea which color is best?

Nope. I went with some dark brown ones. Sure hope they hold up!

[lyates1987]

Nope. I went with some dark brown ones. Sure hope they hold up!

Ha I was leaning toweds those too! Seems like it would benefit. I'm about to do valve and cct gasket. Might as well knock out the adjuster shoes before it's an issue. I had a short to ground code for a while at the cct. I fixed it but It safe to say I should take a look at em while I'm in there

[lyates1987]

Nope. I went with some dark brown ones. Sure hope they hold up!

Did those new tensioner shoes work out for you? no codes?

[old guy]

Did those new tensioner shoes work out for you? no codes?

So far so good. But I should point out that the pads weren't what caused my codes. The OEM tensioner was working fine. I just figured it would be a good PM practice to replace it after ~200k miles. My mistake. So I replaced the pads on the OEM one and put it back in. That's what I get for trying to stay ahead of things;)

[lyates1987]

So far so good. But I should point out that the pads weren't what caused my codes. The OEM tensioner was working fine. I just figured it would be a good PM practice to replace it after ~200k miles. My mistake. So I replaced the pads on the OEM one and put it back in. That's what I get for trying to stay ahead of things;)

Awesome. My pigtail connector was fouled causing a short to ground on my tensioner. figured it would be a good idea to replace the pads while im doing the valve cover and CCT gasket.

[BlazinB5]

So far so good. But I should point out that the pads weren't what caused my codes. The OEM tensioner was working fine. I just figured it would be a good PM practice to replace it after ~200k miles. My mistake. So I replaced the pads on the OEM one and put it back in. That's what I get for trying to stay ahead of things;)

Have you tried checking your oil pressure yet? It would be very interesting to see if a clogged oil pickup has something to do witht the CCT failing.

[old guy]

Have you tried checking your oil pressure yet? It would be very interesting to see if a clogged oil pickup has something to do witht the CCT failing.

Yep. Oil pressure is right where it should be. My OEM positioner never failed. I replaced it as a PM measure and ended up going back to the OEM one with new pads. The aftermarket positioners were the issue. not my OEM one.

[Wet0willy01]

I kept my brand new aftermarket one in favor of a 50k mile oem tensioner when I sold my spare head. I regret that now. 2nd aftermarket vvt, still have codes.

[lyates1987]

I am going to change the pads on my CCT and was wondering what to expect when I take the tool off of it after I pull it off the car. Anything I should know in particular?

[old guy]

I am going to change the pads on my CCT and was wondering what to expect when I take the tool off of it after I pull it off the car. Anything I should know in particular?

The cam adjuster can be reassembled with hand pressure. No big deal. Just pull the adjuster pistons out, change the pads and put them back in.

[lyates1987]

Easy enough! Thanks OG!

[lyates1987]

Made the mistake of buying the cheap EWK CCT holding tool off ebay. Didn't fit in the slot the screw goes down. Heads up y'all! Buy nice or buy twice also applies to this tool.

[AKB6A418TQUSP]

I have some data points to throw into this thread. About 14,000 miles ago @ 158,000 I changed out my CCT because I have a yet undiagnosed noise that I have been playing part swap roulette with since I bought the car at 120k. The part I installed was this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VLCBZ0 I think it was $100 and of suspicious origin. Couple weeks ago I had all of the same symptoms that OG had in the beginning. I threw VCDS at it and saw that the n205 wasn't doing anything at startup or high rpm. The solenoid body had failed and oil had contaminated the connector. Bought and installed this one: http://www.ecstuning.com/ES2561988/ . After checking all the signals and wires to the N205/CCT, G40, and timing I threw it all back together and it worked great (same old noise still persisted though, not cam chain related). Only problem with the new (third) CCT was one of the check balls on the back of it must not have been sealed and at idle it would weep oil and at solenoid movement/high RPM it would spray a fine mist of oil all over the back end of the engine; read: tons of smoke. ECS was great though and sent me a new one. The new one seems to be working great.

[daught]

I put 20K on the car since new year and the hudson unit is good. The tool it comes with is also really good. My cct was very stuborn and I overtightened the hudson tool. It held together.

[audi_s450501]

Here's the deal......

Back in May of this year my engine developed a nasty noise. Long story short, it ended up being a defective water pump bearing. During the process of finding the issue I replaced the cam chain adjuster. I figured at 190k+ miles it was a reasonable PM to perform. So the timing chain adjuster was replaced along with a complete TB service (TB, water pump, TB tensioner, idler pulley etc). The OEM timing chain adjuster was still functioning OK but upon removal the wear pads had some significant wear. Life was good for three months.

Then in August I started getting a P0011 and a P0012 indicating an over-advanced or over-retarded intake cam. Since I never had these codes in the previous 190k+ miles I had to assume a defective cam chain adjuster. I contacted the supplier and had the adjuster replaced under warranty. Life was good for another three months.

Then last Friday I put ~600 miles on the car. I stopped at the Hospital on the way home to visit a coworker and when I went out and started the car I was graced with a CEL for a P0011. I reset it and on the trip from the Hospital to home (10 miles) I was the graced with a P0012. (over advanced / over-retarded cam position codes). Since then I no longer get a P0011/0012 but I do get a daily P0340 and I have a bad idle with reduced vacuum. My speculation is that the cam adjuster is now stuck in the middle between full retard and full advance. Consequently the ECM doesn't know what the hell is going on since the cam position sensor can't tell if the cam is at full advance or full retard. So it gives me a P0340 position sensor malfunction code since it doesn't know what else to do.

I should mention that I had a spare cam position sensor and changing it made no difference. The cam position sensor is getting a 5v trigger signal as it should and the cam adjuster solenoid is getting a 12v activation signal as per spec. I checked the resistance on the OEM solenoid activator as well as the replacement solenoid activator and both were at 13Ω resistance. According the the Bentley it should be between 5-8Ω at 20°C. Technically it is out of range but when I apply a 12v signal I can hear both of them activate so I don't think that is an issue.

So what are the chances that I received two defective cam adjusters? Although it seems highly unlikely I am running out of things to check. So here is what I am going to do this weekend. I ordered and received replacement wear pads for the OEM cam adjuster. Tomorrow or Sunday (weather permitting) I am going to replace the replacement cam adjuster with the OEM one and see if the problem goes away.

So wadda you think?? Will it fix the problem? Do I have some other issue that I need to address? I'm getting pretty tired of replacing the same part over and over again. All suggestions are appreciated. Bad adjuster? Lightning strikes twice in the same place or something else going on?

Hey would you be ok with possibly contacting me I need someone else to brain storm that same code. I don't believe my problem to be with the adjuster.

[old guy]

Hey would you be ok with possibly contacting me I need someone else to brain storm that same code. I don't believe my problem to be with the adjuster.

The first step that I would recommend would be to hook up your VCDS and monitor block 91. You will see four display zones. Zones 1 and 2 are for engine speed and engine load. You are going to want to look at zones 3 and 4. Zone 3 tells you if the cam adjuster is on or off. Zone 4 will tell you the amount of intake cam advance.

There are only two positions for the camshaft, the normal position and the switched position. To bring the camshaft into the switched position, accelerate the vehicle in 1st gear from rest. Under moderate acceleration the cam adjuster will activate around 2,000 rpm and deactivate around 4,500 rpm.

Display zone 4 shows the actual position of the intake camshaft. If the activation of the cam adjuster is ON (display zone 3) it can be seen in display zone 4 if in fact an adjustment of the camshaft has occurred. The camshaft in its normal position should be between -3° to +6° advance. The camshaft in switched position should be between 16° to 25° advance. If the cam adjuster is working properly your readings should fall within those ranges.

If during test drive display zone 4 displays a value between 6° and 16° you will have confirmed that the camshaft adjustment valve is getting an electrical signal and operating to direct oil pressure to the mechanical portion of the camshaft adjuster but it cannot attain its end position. This would be an indication that either the cam adjuster is sticking or it isn't getting enough oil pressure to fully activate the adjuster. Low oil pressure could be from a clogged pickup screen, a clogged filter screen on the bottom of the adjuster itself or excessive wear on the adjuster itself allowing excessive oil to bypass the adjuster piston.

[KSEADUB]

OP,

I just read through your whole saga. Thanks for all the detailed info you provided as to the operation of the CCT in normal engine operation, as well as the linked writeups to the CCT replacement. I might have missed this in your thread, but what engine were you performing this work on? Your use of the singular pronoun when referring to the CCT and head makes me think its a 1.8T (as does your profile), but I wanted to confirm.

I'm currently in the process of replacing one of my CCTs in my 2000 V6 Passat with the ATQ engine (similar to a B5 A4). The threaded hole that the tensioner compressor threads into stripped out while i was attempting to remove the CCT while replacing the CCT gasket and half moon plug. Anyhoo - I got the CCT and the intake cam out eventually, but I'm having a hard time finding a resource that describes what the expected operation of this device should be. IE- what happens at the CCT when the solenoid is activated? Under what conditions does the CCT 'activate' to advance or retard the intake camshaft position. What is the total magnitude of the advancement/retardation? I'm wondering where you pulled that diagnostic/background information from for your specific engine application that you linked a snapshot of in your last post... Do you know if anything like that is available for the ATQ engine?

I attempted to test the resistance of the N205 sensor on the CCT itself, and i was getting out of spec values (referenced back to the bentley). That, plus the stripped compressor hole has me thinking about replacing the whole thing. The photo you posted of the 'lifter' portion of the OEM and aftermarket CTTs is pretty interesting. Weird that the aftermarket part is missing the chamfers as well as what i assume is an oil feed hole. Perhaps this is the reason for the scoring you see on the shaft? Just to clarify, the aftermarket part you ordered was never listed as 'OEM' was it?

[old guy]

All of this diagnostic work pertained to the 1.8T AMB engine. The cam phase position for the ATQ engine functions differently. With the ATQ the cam position is both load and RPM dependant. It isn't an on/off position as with the AMB engine. Here is a PDF with some information that may be helpful with the cam phase testing for your engine. Clicky click®

You made an interesting observation with the oil feed hole on the aftermarket CCT. If you look closely it does have one. It's just visually obscured because of the scarring.

[KSEADUB]

All of this diagnostic work pertained to the 1.8T AMB engine. The cam phase position for the ATQ engine functions differently. With the ATQ the cam position is both load and RPM dependant. It isn't an on/off position as with the AMB engine. Here is a PDF with some information that may be helpful with the cam phase testing for your engine. Clicky click®

You made an interesting observation with the oil feed hole on the aftermarket CCT. If you look closely it does have one. It's just visually obscured because of the scarring.

Thanks very much! That screenshot alone is worth gold. What is your electronic resource for this kind of stuff? Seems a yard and a mile ahead of what is available in the Bentley. I haven't had much luck identifying anything electronic that seems like its worth it.

[old guy]

Thanks very much! That screenshot alone is worth gold. What is your electronic resource for this kind of stuff? Seems a yard and a mile ahead of what is available in the Bentley. I haven't had much luck identifying anything electronic that seems like its worth it.

I do have a rather extensive database. In fact it's so big that I lose stuff in it all the time. but with perseverance I can usually find it again. I'll be glad to share it with you ;-)

Clicky click®

[KSEADUB]

Haaa. You got me. :)


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[old guy]

Haaa. You got me. :)

It really is quite amazing what is available once you figure out a few search techniques and apply a bit of perseverance. It's kinda funny, at times when I'm looking for an answer and come up with something I posted a few years ago and totally forgot about. Onset of senility? Hope not....