"APR - Deception, Coverups, and Lies"

[wwhan]

Technology of the 1960s... 1970s. http://www.cherrybomb.com/glasspacks-front.html

http://www.cherrybomb.com/vortex-mufflers.html

[Stubek]

Technology of the 1960s... 1970s. http://www.cherrybomb.com/glasspacks-front.html

http://www.cherrybomb.com/vortex-mufflers.html

I remember stocking Cherry Bombs when I worked at Pep Boys in high school a long long time ago. Forgot about those until this post

[MerkurRS]

I remember stocking Cherry Bombs when I worked at Pep Boys in high school a long long time ago. Forgot about those until this post

Yes- I remember those too, and the when the packing blew out of those is when the neighbors complained to your parents. So, it a nut shell- crappy fiberglass packing is nothing new. See how trends recycle? Maybe whitewalls will come back soon.....

[AQuattro]

Eh?

I'm simply saying that your analysis of a properly packed muffler is incorrect. There should be no gaps. It should be packed tightly with fiberglass.

http://www.supertrapp.com/images/pdf...acking-FAQ.pdf

I see. Since you simply said "no, not at all" I figured you were dismissing my entire statement. Some gaps using pre-filled bags are inevitable, but the bags should contain enough volume for the entire can so the fibers will fill most of it once the bags burn away. It's interesting that the picture in your link shows the inferior short fiber e-glass packing I mentioned. It appears Supertrap may not be the best authority on the subject. OE's and any respectable aftermarket manufacturer now use continuous length, high temperature fiber that won't blow out or melt.

[mr shickadance]

this is pretty shitty for APR for sure. I mean based on the information present, if it was an internal APR worker that released these photos bc they are dealing with supplier issues than they should have pulled the product.

I can certainly understand switching from one stainless steel to another lower grade, i mead, read up on the lower level, it will have surface rust, but it will not penetrate and degrade over time. exhausts are not rocket science here, it's a tube connected to another tube. As the costs of metal increase, as a business you want to keep the same margin without having to raise prices (despite a price hike in 2013, also a head scratcher)

either way, they clearly know that they are selling a product mislabeled and had absolutely no problems doing so for quite some time now. That for me, is unacceptable, as stated, I can totally get swapping metals or using cheaper materials as long as it provides no difference in the end product (surface rust on something that will never be seen unless you literally crawl under the car is not a difference in my opinion, but im sure a few of you might feel differently)

but lying to your customer based flat out and for so long is absolutely something i will never stand behind. If APR comes out and claims this was an internal issue and they are dealing with it then why are still selling the exhausts? i mean seriously, pull the product, explain whats going on and start accruing for what it surely going to be some sort of lawsuit coming you way for selling a product like this.

[PSUGOLD]

WOO WOOOOOOO

[mr shickadance]

Also to anyone doubting the photo of the cut open resonator I would like to cast my vote to thinking this is authentic. Why? because in order to cut into the resonator you need some sort of dremel tool which cutting the metal would produce some metal by product which is clearly seen on the fiberglass packing in the photos. If they cut it open removed the RSC and placed the packing in there you would not see this, either that or it's an incredibly well thoughout dig against APR

[drob23]

Also to anyone doubting the photo of the cut open resonator I would like to cast my vote to thinking this is authentic. Why? because in order to cut into the resonator you need some sort of dremel tool which cutting the metal would produce some metal by product which is clearly seen on the fiberglass packing in the photos. If they cut it open removed the RSC and placed the packing in there you would not see this, either that or it's an incredibly well thoughout dig against APR

According to crew, who has *not been proven wrong* on anything he's said in the past 4 months (note I didn't say verified to be correct on everything), the pictures were taken by APR

http://*******************/forum/ind...86038#msg86038

[boseephuss]

Still no APR folks chiming in. For my own selfish reasons I wish they would, but it's best to leave these alone. Neither confirm or deny. That said, +1 for Borla!!! LOL

[mr shickadance]

According to crew, who has *not been proven wrong* on anything he's said in the past 4 months (note I didn't say verified to be correct on everything), the pictures were taken by APR

http://audirevolution.net/forum/inde...86038#msg86038

yea i saw that, i have a hard habit of being pretty skeptical on anything i see (previously was in public accounting, anyone in that line of work will pretty much share the same line of thought) so i look for other things that would be confirming. It's why i am such a pain in the ass when people come out and make claims against a vendor/product/other member. They need to have the proof to back it up in my opinion and so far 'Crew' has done exactly that.

Look, I know what it takes to run a somewhat small business like APR, having to deal with overseas suppliers and factories and getting the same line of quality day in and day out is an insane struggle that not many people realize. when you have your suppliers overseas, they are also trying to make the part for the cheapest amount of $$ possible and if you don't have good quality control at HQ a supplier will absolutely try and undercut you after a month or two of production. The companies that thrive are the ones who do well in quality control and immediately fire or seek a new supplier when that happens.

The main issue here is that it was very clear that APR knew about this issue, and continued to sell and not let their customers know. I discredit pretty much everything else going on with APR (simply put, not enough people on these forums know about private funding and sel;ling equity in your company does not mean that there are money troubles. When you have a good business, and need to expand there are a millions reasons why equity funding vs loans are a better outcome. Watching these conclusions get made based on that venture had me smiling at points)

The lying to the customer is what will make me never consider APR as a product ever again. They could have easily pulled the exhausts, issued a blanket PR statement, offered some sort of solution to the people who did buy the product (like an actual decent exhaust using the tech they claimed and a covered install by an APR dealer and maybe $100 off of the next APR purchase) because frankly mistakes happen. and a company's true colors show when mistakes happen and they do not handle it correctly.

lying to your customer is never a good idea and frankly other members should really factor that in when making their next purchase for a part.

[Eldog_85]

I went custom exhaust for this very reason. Built my exhaust for just under $600 with Magnaflow parts, and thats including the install. No way I'd shell out $1500-$2000 for an exhaust, especially with alll the b.s APR has put out. No way!

[Arin@APR]

All of the exhaust systems we sell with "RSC" in the name are manufactured by Corsa and do contain RSC technology. We've confirmed this information with Corsa again due to all the recent claims otherwise. RSC technology is designed to eliminate unwanted frequencies, considered "drone," and our customers can attest to this being true. The greatest concern being discussed is related to the appearance of the RSC technology. Corsa has explained RSC technology will vary in appearance from system to system, depending on the frequencies that need removed, and other things like packaging constraints. Some vehicle applications must use large and heavy RSC technology, while other systems have the luxury of using smaller, lighter RSC technology. In each case the end goal is to remove drone, and thus far, that's the case.

[PSUGOLD]

All of the exhaust systems we sell with "RSC" in the name are manufactured by Corsa and do contain RSC technology. We've confirmed this information with Corsa again due to all the recent claims otherwise. RSC technology is designed to eliminate unwanted frequencies, considered "drone," and our customers can attest to this being true. The greatest concern being discussed is related to the appearance of the RSC technology. Corsa has explained RSC technology will vary in appearance from system to system, depending on the frequencies that need removed, and other things like packaging constraints. Some vehicle applications must use large and heavy RSC technology, while other systems have the luxury of using smaller, lighter RSC technology. In each case the end goal is to remove drone, and thus far, that's the case.

I had no idea RSC technology included stuffing a Princess Elsa wig inside part of the exhaust system. If so, APR may want to get permission from Disney.

[LINDW4LL]

Corsa has explained RSC technology will vary in appearance from system to system, depending on the frequencies that need removed, and other things like packaging constraints. Some vehicle applications must use large and heavy RSC technology, while other systems have the luxury of using smaller, lighter RSC technology. In each case the end goal is to remove drone, and thus far, that's the case.

Here are the drawings from the patent filings for Corsa's RSC. Your resonators sure don't look like any version of RSC to me.

[Audacious]

All of the exhaust systems we sell with "RSC" in the name are manufactured by Corsa and do contain RSC technology. We've confirmed this information with Corsa again due to all the recent claims otherwise. RSC technology is designed to eliminate unwanted frequencies, considered "drone," and our customers can attest to this being true. The greatest concern being discussed is related to the appearance of the RSC technology. Corsa has explained RSC technology will vary in appearance from system to system, depending on the frequencies that need removed, and other things like packaging constraints. Some vehicle applications must use large and heavy RSC technology, while other systems have the luxury of using smaller, lighter RSC technology. In each case the end goal is to remove drone, and thus far, that's the case.

I see you've removed the quote in your sig about "the bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." probably a good move.

[chillindrdude]

All of the exhaust systems we sell with "RSC" in the name are manufactured by Corsa and do contain RSC technology. We've confirmed this information with Corsa again due to all the recent claims otherwise. RSC technology is designed to eliminate unwanted frequencies, considered "drone," and our customers can attest to this being true. The greatest concern being discussed is related to the appearance of the RSC technology. Corsa has explained RSC technology will vary in appearance from system to system, depending on the frequencies that need removed, and other things like packaging constraints. Some vehicle applications must use large and heavy RSC technology, while other systems have the luxury of using smaller, lighter RSC technology. In each case the end goal is to remove drone, and thus far, that's the case.

So form follows function? The way I am interpreting your response is, as long as there is no drone, we shouldn't really care what is in that muffler. Are we not, the consumer, paying your premium cost, for not ONLY to minimize drone but for the supposed proprietary tech? and for the higher QA and materials used?

The poster before you fashioned a custom "off the shelf" exhaust that performed the same function (minimize drone) but did it for $600 bucks. Your post also seems to imply that you knew some mufflers did not have the RSC baffles, and failed to indicate that to prospective customers. In addition, you (and perhaps APR) still feel (with hands firmly in cookie jar) that this is "OK".

There's no doubt that some APR products work and even work well, but your unsavory business practices have convinced me to spend my hard earned dollar elsewhere.

[Arin@APR]

The way I am interpreting your response is, as long as there is no drone, we shouldn't really care what is in that muffler.

There really isn't much room for interpretation, or at least, you shouldn't need to interpret anything. There are claims the "RSC" exhaust systems we sell do not contain RSC technology. According to Corsa, the manufacturer of the system, the exhausts do contain RSC technology.

[Stereodude]

But they don't contain Corsa's patented RSC technology of metal baffles which the product listings claim now do they?

[JonS4]

So form follows function?.......

Of course, I could care less what's inside as long as it doesn't drone like the Milltek I had on my RS4. I was more concerned by the rattle mine developed this spring but am no longer since Corsa through APR's Canadian distributor took care of if. In fact, they shipped me a new muffler without benefit of getting the old one back. I've still got the old muffler if someone ones to go all forensic on this.

[Arin@APR]

But they don't contain Corsa's patented RSC technology of metal baffles which the product listings claim now do they?

According to Corsa, the manufacturer of the exhaust system, they do.

[Stereodude]

According to Corsa, the manufacturer of the exhaust system, they do.

So, you're either attempting to insult our intelligence or are accusing Corsa of lying without quite coming out and saying it.

Can you point us to the Corsa patent for fiberglass in a muffler?

It's one thing to claim you're using RSC tech, it's another to say you're using patented RSC tech (complete with diagrams of the metal baffles).

[PSUGOLD]

According to Corsa, the manufacturer of the exhaust system, they do.

So were those pictures falsified that look nothing like metal baffles?? Look like fiberglass and a homeless person's wig in there.

[mr shickadance]

All of the exhaust systems we sell with "RSC" in the name are manufactured by Corsa and do contain RSC technology. We've confirmed this information with Corsa again due to all the recent claims otherwise. RSC technology is designed to eliminate unwanted frequencies, considered "drone," and our customers can attest to this being true. The greatest concern being discussed is related to the appearance of the RSC technology. Corsa has explained RSC technology will vary in appearance from system to system, depending on the frequencies that need removed, and other things like packaging constraints. Some vehicle applications must use large and heavy RSC technology, while other systems have the luxury of using smaller, lighter RSC technology. In each case the end goal is to remove drone, and thus far, that's the case.

Look Arin,

The exhausts you are currently selling right now have been shown, very clearly....by your co-workers as NOT having the structure that you advertise them of having. What is going on, and why have no taken these products off the shelf?

[kandrei]

My Borla exhaust has no drone, no RSC, and no shenanigans.

[LINDW4LL]

Arin,

We can clearly see that the patented RSC technology is not being used in our exhausts. We know that at least one APR employee was aware of this previously. Yet, you still advertise your exhausts as utilizing it.

It doesn't matter that you claim you didn't know. It's very clear now; so why are you still advertising it?


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk

[golfinz]

All of the exhaust systems we sell with "RSC" in the name are manufactured by Corsa and do contain RSC technology. We've confirmed this information with Corsa again due to all the recent claims otherwise. RSC technology is designed to eliminate unwanted frequencies, considered "drone," and our customers can attest to this being true. The greatest concern being discussed is related to the appearance of the RSC technology. Corsa has explained RSC technology will vary in appearance from system to system, depending on the frequencies that need removed, and other things like packaging constraints. Some vehicle applications must use large and heavy RSC technology, while other systems have the luxury of using smaller, lighter RSC technology. In each case the end goal is to remove drone, and thus far, that's the case.

There really isn't much room for interpretation, or at least, you shouldn't need to interpret anything. There are claims the "RSC" exhaust systems we sell do not contain RSC technology. According to Corsa, the manufacturer of the system, the exhausts do contain RSC technology.

According to Corsa, the manufacturer of the exhaust system, they do.

Passing the buck or maybe it's Corsa we should contact to get the correct answer? I'm sure they have a muffler that they have a cut out of to show this "RSC" technology.

Additionally, are you telling us that Corsa manufactures the entire system, then you guys brand it with APR, and sell for a premium, without doing anything further addition to the system? That leads me to believe that you, APR, are just finger pointing at Corsa for not including this "RSC" tech. The whole "It wasn't me" kind of thing

[SpfldS4]

Holy crap, this is terrible business practice. There's a solution for this:

A class action lawsuit is filed when several consumers who have been victimized by similar fraudulent business tactics come together to hold the offending company liable. A class action lawsuit is a lawsuit that is specially created to help consumers recover the financial damages sustained by the fraudulent tactics of the company.

[Stereodude]

Who has contacts at Corsa? It'd be interesting to corroborate that those really are patented RSC tech possessing exhausts.

[Amorphic]

I had no idea RSC technology included stuffing a Princess Elsa wig inside part of the exhaust system. If so, APR may want to get permission from Disney.

thats the unpatented version apparently lol.

[Saracen]

The other thread indicated that at SEMA the news was that Corsa has terminated their relationship with APR "a while back", and are developing their own line of VAG exhausts that will be sold next year.

Why did they drop APR? Because Corsa was not getting paid for their product.

[RainJer]

According to Corsa, the manufacturer of the exhaust system, they do.

Don't want to stand by the product you sell?
That's ok... when my dog shits the bed, he doesn't want to stand by it either.

[mec]

Funny this seems to happen to all vendors who get caught doing something fraudulent or selling a poor quality product.

They have no way of justifying themselves....so whats the easiest thing to do? Throw the next guy under the bus.

Very respectable of you Arin, just throw Corsa under the bus, you guys haven't been paying them anyway so you won't need future business relationships with them.

[Stereodude]

Funny, I didn't realize APR was selling Corsa exhausts. I thought they were selling APR exhausts. I guess the buck doesn't stop at APR for their APR exhausts.

[Sean@APR]

OK, bunch of clarification needed.

1. RSC is a trademark owned by Corsa for an assortment of exhaust system designs
2. Corsa also has a bunch of patents on various implementations of drone-free exhaust
3. The thread over on that landfill of a forum is nothing but a lame attempt at a smear campaign. Every single thing on there is a distortion of reality.

To clarify the patent situation:

Only one picture in that post looks like the inside of an RSC exhaust. The others, I have no idea. Nobody has ever demonstrated that the pictures are authentic in any fashion. Everybody is quick to jump on the hate band-wagon and call us liars but NOBODY even attempts to verify what crew says.


OK, here's the CORRECT patent image from the CORRECT patent that applies to that 1 image of the rear enclosure on a Golf R exhaust:




Beyond that, please learn the difference between patent and trademark. Trademarks are words that companies register to apply to some particular thing: Their business, their product or their technology. Corsa uses the RSC trademark to describe an exhaust system with certain characteristics. They then use some of their patented technology to make a system that meets those requirements. There is nothing deceitful in that. It's precisely the purpose of the trademark system.

Arin,

We can clearly see that the patented RSC technology is not being used in our exhausts. We know that at least one APR employee was aware of this previously. Yet, you still advertise your exhausts as utilizing it.

It doesn't matter that you claim you didn't know. It's very clear now; so why are you still advertising it?


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk

[Sean@APR]

They have no way of justifying themselves....so whats the easiest thing to do? Throw the next guy under the bus.

Very respectable of you Arin, just throw Corsa under the bus, you guys haven't been paying them anyway so you won't need future business relationships with them.

It's not throwing anyone under the bus. Corsa OWNS the RSC TRADEMARK. They are the ones that are, by law, allowed to apply it to products manufactured by them.

If they say it is RSC, it is RSC. We, by trademark law, don't have anything to do with that.

[mec]

It's not throwing anyone under the bus. Corsa OWNS the RSC TRADEMARK. They are the ones that are, by law, allowed to apply it to products manufactured by them.

If they say it is RSC, it is RSC. We, by trademark law, don't have anything to do with that.

Ok, but you have a responsibility to know what you are selling to people. You advertise a multichambered muffler yet deliver and empty muffler with a single chamber.

Let's say I own a restaurant, I'm liable for where I get my food, if I advertise organic gluten free whatever bullshit, it better be organic gluten free bullshit otherwise it's on me because I am the intermediary between my vendor and my customers. I can't just say "Nuhuh it's not my fault he didn't tell me it wasn't organic gluten free"

[Stereodude]

It's not throwing anyone under the bus. Corsa OWNS the RSC TRADEMARK. They are the ones that are, by law, allowed to apply it to products manufactured by them.

If they say it is RSC, it is RSC. We, by trademark law, don't have anything to do with that.

It's one thing to claim you're using RSC™ tech, it's another to say you're using patented RSC™ tech (complete with diagrams of the metal baffles).

So, basically the APR position is that APR didn't know what it was getting from Corsa and were duped?

[Stereodude]

Beyond that, please learn the difference between patent and trademark. Trademarks are words that companies register to apply to some particular thing: Their business, their product or their technology. Corsa uses the RSC trademark to describe an exhaust system with certain characteristics. They then use some of their patented technology to make a system that meets those requirements. There is nothing deceitful in that. It's precisely the purpose of the trademark system.

Oh sure...

To continue with even further refinement and power potential out of the 3.0T, new features never before offered by APR Exhaust Systems are introduced to the B8 S4 application in addition to the patented RSC™ Technology:

To continue with even further refinement and power potential out of the 2.0T, new features are introduced to the B8 A4 & A5 application in addition to the patented RSC™ Technology:

Even where it doesn't say "patented RSC™" the tech is referred to as:

RSC™ incorporates innovative technologies developed in conjunction with NASA. With limited use of packing materials and no baffles...

Keep Digging...

[boseephuss]

My Borla exhaust has no drone, no RSC, and no shenanigans.

+1

[Sean@APR]

Ok, but you have a responsibility to know what you are selling to people. You advertise a multichambered muffler yet deliver and empty muffler with a single chamber.

That's incorrect. The exhaust IS multi-chambered. They just all happen to be inside that can at the top. Look at the drawing I posted.