"APR - Deception, Coverups, and Lies"

[LINDW4LL]

But it looks APR has been screwed just as much as the owners of the exhaust.

Corsa was not ripping off APR. Not a chance. Not to mention that the photos of the cut open muffler/resonators were taken TWO YEARS ago by an APR employee.




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[AKPS4]

If that's the case, then APR should simply take care of it's customers and deal with corsa which APR is not doing. This is why APR will and is going down due to their business practice and lack of PR skills.

[doug97gxe]

Corsa was not ripping off APR. Not a chance. Not to mention that the photos of the cut open muffler/resonators were taken TWO YEARS ago by an APR employee.




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ok one last one i promise..

when i say APR looks to have been screwed as the customers, i'm going based on what i see in this thread..

Corsa has a design that they put in the patent (i learned from this thread)
Corsa said they used certain materials in the exhaust (i learned from this thread)
Exhaust Opened looks nothing like the baffle design or materials advertised (i learned from this thread)

So unless APR opened the exhaust they got from Corsa removed what was advertisted and replaced it with what i see in these pictures, it would appear they didn't get the product they purchased just as the customers did either.

Now we know APR is a big company and the last thing they are going to do is start an out and out bash of Corsa, that would destroy their relationships with other vendors they deal with.

Again this is all my assumptions based on the pics and posts and APR's responses (reading between the lines of their posts)

I could be wrong.. i could be right.. i could be crazy.. i could be all of the above..

seems to be alot of egg on faces in this situation .. again i hope everyone comes out happy in the end

[seanj130]

How about changing to a cheaper material and without changing their advertising?

its my assumption APR opened these exhausts because they felt they weren't getting what they paid for, then at that point it was too late to stop the train from rolling. Was that deceitful? if thats the case then YES.. absolutely.. But it looks APR has been screwed just as much as the owners of the exhaust.

That being said the actual owners of this exhaust need to speak up and get some compensation if they so choose to without the other bashing.

Don't forget as humans we can do 99 things right, but the moment we get 1 thing wrong its magnified. Let the actual owners get their compensation fix that situation and let the other 99 things APR has done for the community continue to benefit those that need it

Sent from my Atari while playing Pac Man

[mr shickadance]

ok so small update from the indiegogo side of things.

So far we have raised $86 and it does not seem like we are going to make our goal.

However, a veteran member at AZ pm'd me and was talking about how currently his 2010 apr exhaust (with rsc) has developed a rattle, and he needed to open up the exhaust to fix a likely broken weld to begin with.

He was not planning on opening up the resonator side of things, however given the situation, he asked me if he could be involved in this project and maybe the funding could go towards opening up his exhaust.

Honestly, I think this is a fair option and should be considered. I told him I would ask the community what they felt and we could go from there.

This way, the funds will benefit a member, benefit the community, and will not give the company any sales.

So, having said that, how does everyone feel about this as an option?

[Joker S4]

ok so small update from the indiegogo side of things.

So far we have raised $86 and it does not seem like we are going to make our goal.

However, a veteran member at AZ pm'd me and was talking about how currently his 2010 apr exhaust (with rsc) has developed a rattle, and he needed to open up the exhaust to fix a likely broken weld to begin with.

He was not planning on opening up the resonator side of things, however given the situation, he asked me if he could be involved in this project and maybe the funding could go towards opening up his exhaust.

Honestly, I think this is a fair option and should be considered. I told him I would ask the community what they felt and we could go from there.

This way, the funds will benefit a member, benefit the community, and will not give the company any sales.

So, having said that, how does everyone feel about this as an option?

I don't think we'd make that goal either looking at it. I donated to the cause, and I'm alright with it going to a member to assist in patching up his current exhaust if he/she is willing to keep everyone informed. +1.

[Hansel]

I'm good with that. At least my donation will go to a member.

[Mobileguy]

I don’t see what’s wrong with APR opening an exhaust because they want to build their own. If it is not patented or otherwise protected from an intellectual property perspective, its fair game. And after seeing these pictures, I don’t blame APR at all for wanting to build their own. There is nothing wrong with sourcing products in China – I am almost certain you are commenting on this thread via computer/tablet/cellphone made in China…

With that said, I don’t understand how useful it is to open even more of their exhausts. They are likely to show what was already posted in the pictures (APR never disputed their legitimacy).

IMO, the main issue here is how this has been handled by APR. You don’t advertise features or specifications that you don’t have, and when you get caught, you don’t argue over technicalities with your buyers in a public forum (or even worse, get into a pissing match with former employees). APR is hardly a “big company”. How many employees do they have? Maybe 20 or 30? As a small business, you sometimes have to cut corners simply to survive. The question is how you handle these “corners” once you made it out of it…

Personally, I like to see APR make it out of this as a stronger company because these issues seem to date back to a time before their private equity investors came on board. Perhaps extra training for some of the employees would be a good idea.

[Arin@APR]

How about changing to a cheaper material and without changing their advertising?

The current "RSC" exhaust systems consist of 304 and 439 stainless steel. The design specifications do not call for 409 as suggested here. Our website does not make false claims about the materials used.

The exhaust systems also still carry the same warranty as before, which can be handled through APR or Corsa. Corsa has the warranty information on their website: http://www.corsaperformance.com/Warr...rrantyReg.aspx

[hyperunion]

ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING

Don't let this thread end up like this - http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...g-To-Do/page11

It seems like most people here like this thread, at some point APR will want to shut it down and push teh moderators/anthony to do it. Chances are that they will resist and say no, but if apr tries to be persuasive, then its very easy to come up with an excuse such as that VWvortex mod did.

"This thread has turned into bickering, i'm closing it"
"This thread has turned into jokes, i'm closing it"
"this thread has gotten out of hand, I'm closing it"

Don't make this thread into easy prey to be closed, that will make the Mod's job easier to resist APR.

It may have been closed on the b8 thread ...I'm hoping its put back...

[hyperunion]

Very rational and realistic observations. People need to remember this is aftermarket. All cars break eventually, even stock exhausts.
Exhausts are somewhat of a wear item anyway. If your paying double for a "brand name", example APR vs AWE then that is your choice. APR is free to outsource fabrication as a business but in this case it is hurting them at this point. No denying that its now cheaper steel.

Its " business 101"...

[Mr.Wrong]

[hmk6]

Hi Arin,
Recently I bought an Mk6 GTI and actually I was 120% sure that with this car I will be fully loaded with APR’s products. My impression was that this is a great company and has the best product in the market for my car.
But since this case, it made me a bit confused.

Are all your products are APR branded? (Manufactured by other brands - Carbonio, Corsa is new for me.)
In any problem that I have you will send me to the real supplier and I will need to deal with him on the warranty?
Can you please write the products that are just branded by APR?
Or on the contrary what APR manufactures? (I guess that the software is or am I wrong?)

Last thing, it was very sad actually to see that this is the way APR handles crises.

Thanks
H

[Joker S4]

Hi Arin,
Recently I bought an Mk6 GTI and actually I was 120% sure that with this car I will be fully loaded with APR’s products. My impression was that this is a great company and has the best product in the market for my car.
But since this case, it made me a bit confused.

Are all your products are APR branded? (Manufactured by other brands - Carbonio, Corsa is new for me.)
In any problem that I have you will send me to the real supplier and I will need to deal with him on the warranty?
Can you please write the products that are just branded by APR?
Or on the contrary what APR manufactures? (I guess that the software is or am I wrong?)

Last thing, it was very sad actually to see that this is the way APR handles crises.

Thanks
H

You created an account so recently, and this is kind of redirecting the thread. I would suggest posting a thread in your own model forum, or talking with APR privately.

[S4 00 2.7]

If that's the case, then APR should simply take care of it's customers and deal with corsa which APR is not doing. This is why APR will and is going down due to their business practice and lack of PR skills.

Exactly what we would all expect.

APR let everyone down with their sub-par responses.

[Sgibb16]

agreed 100%

while i did not read the thread completely just a few of my thoughts and just my opinion, so put down the pitch forks ( against me anyways).

technology can be measured many ways. some people have higher expectations than others. look at android vs apple. we all know apple is "late" with their features and technologies while android has had it for years, yet apple users always praise it like a godsend.

so if their technology to get rid of drone is as simple as putting a wig in between the mufflers, so what? it gets rid of drone, it does its job, does it not? did you think of it first?

all that aside, why was none of this mentioned prior to that pic being released? had anyone complained that their exhaust didnt perform like its supposed to? so it takes one picture, of an exhaust, that no one here owns, and everyone comes with pitchforks saying they had a bad product? so if that pic never got released, will you guys still be enjoying ur exhausts?

and regarding price, that is all moot. its your company. u can charge watever the hell you want. if its too pricey, dont buy it. simple as that.

im sure vendors always have their share of good and bad experiences. so i am not saying APR is not guilty of anything by no means. i am ubiased, but i do have an APR tune, which i love. had the tune not performed the way i wanted or if i had a problem, im pretty sure the company would have done something about it ( hopefully ). just as if someone had a defective exhaust, im sure the company or vendor would have taken care of it. AND if someone did in fact own that specifc exhaust in question, im sure things would have played out differently.

feel free to negate anything i have said. because like i said, i did not read the thread 100% so i could be wrong in many of my views, but as it stands, thats how i see this situation.

edit* its like the bill cosby scandal. one person claims rape, possibly lawsuit settlement. and all of a sudden a shit load of other chicks says their raped and wants in. probably how society works now. everyone wants compensation.

The problem isnt the performance of the exhaust its the false advertising.....

[drob23]

agreed 100%

while i did not read the thread completely just a few of my thoughts and just my opinion, so put down the pitch forks ( against me anyways).

technology can be measured many ways. some people have higher expectations than others. look at android vs apple. we all know apple is "late" with their features and technologies while android has had it for years, yet apple users always praise it like a godsend.

so if their technology to get rid of drone is as simple as putting a wig in between the mufflers, so what? it gets rid of drone, it does its job, does it not? did you think of it first?

all that aside, why was none of this mentioned prior to that pic being released? had anyone complained that their exhaust didnt perform like its supposed to? so it takes one picture, of an exhaust, that no one here owns, and everyone comes with pitchforks saying they had a bad product? so if that pic never got released, will you guys still be enjoying ur exhausts?

and regarding price, that is all moot. its your company. u can charge watever the hell you want. if its too pricey, dont buy it. simple as that.

im sure vendors always have their share of good and bad experiences. so i am not saying APR is not guilty of anything by no means. i am ubiased, but i do have an APR tune, which i love. had the tune not performed the way i wanted or if i had a problem, im pretty sure the company would have done something about it ( hopefully ). just as if someone had a defective exhaust, im sure the company or vendor would have taken care of it. AND if someone did in fact own that specifc exhaust in question, im sure things would have played out differently.

feel free to negate anything i have said. because like i said, i did not read the thread 100% so i could be wrong in many of my views, but as it stands, thats how i see this situation.

edit* its like the bill cosby scandal. one person claims rape, possibly lawsuit settlement. and all of a sudden a shit load of other chicks says their raped and wants in. probably how society works now. everyone wants compensation.

I believe it's this:







Take from it what you will.

[Zillon]

This isn't about money or compensation for me. I want to see APR do the right thing, and admit they were wrong, and move forward on the right foot.

That is what should have been done when word started leaking out about the recent acquisition of APR by Mangrove Equities. Someone at APR or Mangrove should've crafted up a response that said, well guys, we (APR) screwed up. But, we're not going anywhere, we're going to get things right, we're in this for the long haul.

Be honest and transparent, and you'll reap the rewards. Screw over your customer base, and well... I think we already know where that will lead you. Oh wait, we're already there.

[dirtydub]

This isn't about money or compensation for me. I want to see APR do the right thing, and admit they were wrong, and move forward on the right foot.

That is what should have been done when word started leaking out about the recent acquisition of APR by Mangrove Equities. Someone at APR or Mangrove should've crafted up a response that said, well guys, we (APR) screwed up. But, we're not going anywhere, we're going to get things right, we're in this for the long haul.

Be honest and transparent, and you'll reap the rewards. Screw over your customer base, and well... I think we already know where that will lead you. Oh wait, we're already there.

This is dead on!!

[Mobileguy]

This is dead on!!

+1

[cory_can]

I agree, pretty close to what I wrote the other day on AR....

"What they should have done is have a Mangrove executive post, admitting they (the "old" regime) fucked-up, and that they are changing policies/processes going forward. "Cleaning house" It would be partially a load of BS but I believe they would have cleaned-up some of the mess. Instead, they tried to pass the buck and just aggravated everyone even more."

[Zillon]

I agree, pretty close to what I wrote the other day on AR....

"What they should have done is have a Mangrove executive post, admitting they (the "old" regime) fucked-up, and that they are changing policies/processes going forward. "Cleaning house" It would be partially a load of BS but I believe they would have cleaned-up some of the mess. Instead, they tried to pass the buck and just aggravated everyone even more."

I probably read it, but I feel there's a pretty large number of us all in the same boat of agreement.

I just don't understand how an equity group with a vested interest in turning a company around can allow an attitude that has resulted in what we've all read here, to continue. There's still some serious brand equity in the APR name, and it's incredibly stupid to throw it all away by refusing to accept one's wrongdoings.

[Mobileguy]

I probably read it, but I feel there's a pretty large number of us all in the same boat of agreement.

I just don't understand how an equity group with a vested interest in turning a company around can allow an attitude that has resulted in what we've all read here, to continue. There's still some serious brand equity in the APR name, and it's incredibly stupid to throw it all away by refusing to accept one's wrongdoings.

I am pretty sure they don’t know… I deal with firms like that quite a bit and the last place I would expect them to hang out is a car blog.

[Zillon]

I am pretty sure they don’t know… I deal with firms like that quite a bit and the last place I would expect them to hang out is a car blog.

Refusing to properly research or understand the dynamics of your customer base as a part of a restructuring process is as asinine as car dealerships refusing to accept the internet as a valid source of customers.

And I deal with the latter half of that sentence on a regular basis.

[dirtydub]

I am pretty sure they don’t know… I deal with firms like that quite a bit and the last place I would expect them to hang out is a car blog.

Problem is, they do know. Mangrove is in FULL CONTROL at APR HQ. They have come in and have a new CEO and CFO in place. Make no mistake, they are watching threads like this and are only allowing Arin to be the voice of APR...which completely baffles me. Notice how Sean hasn't chimed in lately? That's because Mangrove told him to shut his cake hole.

[getslideways]

That part I am not understanding after reading all this (and my sincerest apologies if I missed it) is why the sudden revision to the Corsa page, which seems to broaden the RSC definition to a much larger scope?

If the allegations are true that relations between APR and Corsa are no more as a result of unpaid bills (which members of the forum have alledged), and if the allegations of APR cutting open Corsa units to copy their R&D are true (which was one of the explanations given by members here for why these photos exist, again, alledged), then why would Corsa alter their RSC Technology description to broaden its definition which would in no clear way benefit them? And seemingly only serve to benefit APR?

It would seem Corsa would be upset if someone was using their trademark name to push a product that wasn't it, which potentially risks their Brand's Image, and their investment in creating that brand.

If someone owed you money, you quit talking as a result, then they came asking you to alter and potentially risk your Brand Name's Equity by allowing it to encompass a broader definition to aid in their troubles, what reasoning would there be to oblige?

It would loosely be like Shell buying regular gas from Chevron, then selling it as "Premium with Techron". Then people finding out its just regular gas and getting mad, and Shell running to Chevron asking "please say that the Techron definition can really be applied to anything that is combustible, even though that undermines its implied value you have invested years into creating" Why would Chevron do that?

Perhaps the Corsa page change is pure coincidence, I am just trying to understand why Corsa would suddenly (seemingly) broaden the definition, or how it would benefit them to do so?

[LINDW4LL]

If the allegations are true that relations between APR and Corsa are no more as a result of unpaid bills (which members of the forum have alledged), and if the allegations of APR cutting open Corsa units to copy their R&D are true (which was one of the explanations given by members here for why these photos exist, again, alledged), then why would Corsa alter their RSC Technology description to broaden its definition which would in no clear way benefit them? And seemingly only serve to benefit APR?

You bring up a good point; but I'd guess they went along with it because they may have been afraid of litigation.

[phillips2024]

on the bright side, I think the phrase "2 weeks" has been replaced with "cut it open!"

[Subsonic]

its my assumption APR opened these exhausts because they felt they weren't getting what they paid for, then at that point it was too late to stop the train from rolling. Was that deceitful? if thats the case then YES.. absolutely.. But it looks APR has been screwed just as much as the owners of the exhaust.

That being said the actual owners of this exhaust need to speak up and get some compensation if they so choose to without the other bashing.

Don't forget as humans we can do 99 things right, but the moment we get 1 thing wrong its magnified. Let the actual owners get their compensation fix that situation and let the other 99 things APR has done for the community continue to benefit those that need it

Do some more reading :) There's apparently some good information you've missed but I've forgotten if I read it here, Vortex, AR, or wherever. I think I've read at least 50 pages of posts in the last couple of days. Starts to jumble together but the main message was clear as day.

Don't forget as humans we can do 99 things right, but the moment we get 1 thing wrong its magnified. Let the actual owners get their compensation fix that situation and let the other 99 things APR has done for the community continue to benefit those that need it

That may be but APR has a track record of poor customer service (imho) and lying/BSing at times. Personally, that doesn't fly with me. I don't support companies with questionable morals, ethics, and service after the sale. I see you just joined but I know that doesn't mean you're ignorant and/or haven't read the forums before. Take some time, dig back a ways, read the APR threads that look longer than average, and then ask yourself if you'd like to support them. If so, that's your decision to make. But it sounds like you're not fully up to speed on what's occurred over time and not just this exhaust issue.

[ILB8S4]

If the allegations are true that relations between APR and Corsa are no more as a result of unpaid bills (which members of the forum have alledged), and if the allegations of APR cutting open Corsa units to copy their R&D are true (which was one of the explanations given by members here for why these photos exist, again, alledged), then why would Corsa alter their RSC Technology description to broaden its definition which would in no clear way benefit them? And seemingly only serve to benefit APR?

You bring up a good point; but I'd guess they went along with it because they may have been afraid of litigation.

"Hey Corsa, you know that money we owe you? Well if you do this one small thing for us...." Probably that + the fear of litigation.

[Subsonic]

You bring up a good point; but I'd guess they went along with it because they may have been afraid of litigation.

But isn't it a bit late for a web page change to protect them from that?

[Okan509]

I agree, pretty close to what I wrote the other day on AR....

"What they should have done is have a Mangrove executive post, admitting they (the "old" regime) fucked-up, and that they are changing policies/processes going forward. "Cleaning house" It would be partially a load of BS but I believe they would have cleaned-up some of the mess. Instead, they tried to pass the buck and just aggravated everyone even more."

agreed

as silly as it is. it works. and works for the majority of customers.

[S4 00 2.7]

Well the trend I see coming from APR is always excuses.

Catback is misrepresented
Excuse: must be Corsa's fault

Stage 2 tune added no power
Excuse: close windows, turn a/c off and hold wheel straight

OR
Your ECU is busted. No refunds

[srt2evo]

Well the trend I see coming from APR is always excuses.

Catback is misrepresented
Excuse: must be Corsa's fault

Stage 2 tune added no power
Excuse: close windows, turn a/c off and hold wheel straight

OR
Your ECU is busted. No refunds

Pretty much. They STILL haven't manned up and admitted their Stage 2 doesn't work. I think I've seen Arin specifically say they work "just fine" despite the mounting evidence and proof that they don't. Never mind the fact Giac even released a v2 to correct theirs (though they won't admit it). What a joke.

[will13k7]

the exhaust is a straight through design and there is no drone, they called it RSC, they can call it XYZ, makes no difference to me, its just a marketing term for a set of technologies to eliminate drone while still having a straight through design. I don't feel shafted at all. That's just me though. To each their own

[cory_can]

Ok spidey, hit it....this thread is now getting boring until the next APR PR disaster.

[Zillon]

Ok spidey, hit it....this thread is now getting boring until the next APR PR disaster.

Hah.

You guys should visit the GolfMk6 APR/RSC thread.

[MerkurRS]

.... again i hope everyone comes out happy in the end

I love a happy ending

[Mobileguy]

Problem is, they do know. Mangrove is in FULL CONTROL at APR HQ. They have come in and have a new CEO and CFO in place. Make no mistake, they are watching threads like this and are only allowing Arin to be the voice of APR...which completely baffles me. Notice how Sean hasn't chimed in lately? That's because Mangrove told him to shut his cake hole.

Sorry, but I call that bull… You have no idea how restructuring works. I do understand that you must have been really hurt by [enter names here] at APR. And you appear to have some inside information as well. Or you think you do. I read through this entire thread and think I understand your claim to have been involved with APR one way or another for a while. And yet you just joined this blog a few days ago. I have upmost respect for anyone who blows a whistle on shady business practices but I am unfortunately getting the impression that you are simply here to flame APR for whatever happened to you personally. So just for clarity, you were on APR’s payroll for at least some period of time, right?

I am relatively new here myself- but unless there is anything else other than inflammatory speech or wild accusations that you can contribute to this forum, you should simply shut the fuk up for your own good. Most companies that are restructured by PE with some sort of founder liquidity result in the placement of an external CEO/CFO who will take control but don’t dig into details right away. Once they do, employees that can communicate and seem knowledgeable (such as Arin) get extra training in dealing with situations like this while guys like you get sued for slander or breach of (statutory) confidentiality obligations. With that in mind, good luck to you and I hope you work things out because this thread alone is a gold mine for any litigator…

[MerkurRS]

Sorry, but I call that bull… You have no idea how restructuring works. I do understand that you must have been really hurt by [enter names here] at APR. And you appear to have some inside information as well. Or you think you do. I read through this entire thread and think I understand your claim to have been involved with APR one way or another for a while. And yet you just joined this blog a few days ago. I have upmost respect for anyone who blows a whistle on shady business practices but I am unfortunately getting the impression that you are simply here to flame APR for whatever happened to you personally. So just for clarity, you were on APR’s payroll for at least some period of time, right?

I am relatively new here myself- but unless there is anything else other than inflammatory speech or wild accusations that you can contribute to this forum, you should simply shut the fuk up for your own good. Most companies that are restructured by PE with some sort of founder liquidity result in the placement of an external CEO/CFO who will take control but don’t dig into details right away. Once they do, employees that can communicate and seem knowledgeable (such as Arin) get extra training in dealing with situations like this while guys like you get sued for slander or breach of (statutory) confidentiality obligations. With that in mind, good luck to you and I hope you work things out because this thread alone is a gold mine for any litigator…

++++/ close thread