Zimbu's more go to my 3.Slow thread (B6 A4 3.0 V6 mods and tuning)

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I wouldn't be surprised at ~250 HP at the crank, but I would doubt 250 HP at the wheels. From the mods listed, a 15% gain isn't that unreasonable, and I'm sure owners of V8 Mustangs have gotten more (percentage wise) from tuning, catless exhaust, and a changed up intake.

That's kinda my logic, I figure 250 CHP is within reason given the modifications. However, numbers aside, the real takeaway from this is that for around $1200 (or less if you DIY the downpipes) you can make these cars into a reliable daily driver that's actually fun to drive.

[Charles.waite]

Yea but you still have a 3.slow. You get zero scene points and all the cool kids will laugh at you while they constantly wrench on their 1.8ts.

[DiertyEuroSpec]

Yea but you still have a 3.slow. You get zero scene points and all the cool kids will laugh at you while they constantly wrench on their 1.8ts.

Hahaha soo regrettably true

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Yea but you still have a 3.slow. You get zero scene points and all the cool kids will laugh at you while they constantly wrench on their 1.8ts.

Lol, whatever, I'll grow an ironic beard, toss on a pair of Chuck Taylors, put on some skinny jeans and tell them between sips of my Pabst Blue Ribbon that 1.8t's are soooo 2012 and that I'm thinking of modding a W12 when 3.0's get too mainstream



(before changing out of my hipster clothes and sneaking into a garage to secretly wrench on my 1.8T )

[rollerton]

you can make these cars into a reliable daily driver that's actually fun to drive.

Awesome how this can only be said of the N/A motors. 3.0 Qualifies...but just barely!!!

[ZimbutheMonkey]

posted a 1-3 gear pull with the tuned and catless setup vs a stock setup in post #3

[texasboy21]

I think it would be interesting to compare some CAPS/FATS times (time it takes to go from3000 - 6500 RPMs in third gear) between your 3.0 and a 'big injector' 1.8T. I have a 5 speed, so the gearing isnt the same as the 3rd gear in the 6 speeds, but I can post some times to compare.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

yeah I agree, maybe let me know what RPM/speed range gets you in the meat of your powerband with your 01A and I can see what the equivalent is on my 01E and we can go from there

[texasboy21]

yeah I agree, maybe let me know what RPM/speed range gets you in the meat of your powerband with your 01A and I can see what the equivalent is on my 01E and we can go from there

Get the car in 3rd gear around 1000-1500RPMs and floor it until fuel cutoff at 7200.

The issue will be 1. different gearing and 2. small differences between the exact RPM's time stamps. The B5 A4 and S4 guys both have excel documents that compensate for this, link below.

http://www.modifieda4.com/web/caps/c....php?type=b518

Solid database:

http://www.modifieda4.com/web/caps/b518-new.html

[ZimbutheMonkey]

So I wanted to add a quick update to this thread.

Up to this point I've been running the car with no intake manifold changeover system (it had been taken out when I bought the car as it was broken).

However, once I was made aware of how much low end power you loose without the changeover system, I ponied up the $500 to buy a new one from ECS.

While I haven't taken any video footage or logs yet, I can still say that it makes a SUBSTANTIAL difference on the low end. The car has way more torque during 'normal' driving conditions (2000-4000 RPM) and during part throttle transitions.

For those of you who don't have a functioning changeover system, I highly recommend getting a new changeover mechanism.

[SJorge3442]

^ You could have bought a used one for like $10-$40.

Now you're going to need to spend another ~$100 on the GruvenParts billet aluminum linkage arms, because your plastic ones will break.

I wish I could find one that cheap. I've been searching for about a year.

It's good to know this is a worthwhile part. OP where you running without the cylinder in the car, or did you just have it slid into in there.

[imnuts]

^ You could have bought a used one for like $10-$40.

Now you're going to need to spend another ~$100 on the GruvenParts billet aluminum linkage arms, because your plastic ones will break.

My plastic arms and changeover system are fine after 190k miles...

Sent from my Moto X

[SJorge3442]

My plastic arms and changeover system are fine after 190k miles...

Sent from my Moto X

I never really understood what causes the arms to break. I just cruise around at 3k all the time so I don't have to worry about my changeover lol.

[imnuts]

I never really understood what causes the arms to break. I just cruise around at 3k all the time so I don't have to worry about my changeover lol.

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that they break under actuation. If one was hard on the throttle and the actuators moved the runners, then the car shifts just after they cycle, causing a quick open/close, it may put more stress on the arms and let them break. Another situation would be if the runners bind up under actuation and cause an abrupt stop of the arms partially actuated.

Sent from my Moto X

[Chard_bb6]

How would I know if my "changeover system" was still functional?

[imnuts]

How would I know if my "changeover system" was still functional?

There is a change in the tone of my engine when it makes the switch. The only real way to tell would probably be to take off the intake manifold and inspect it though.

Sent from my Moto X

[SJorge3442]

How would I know if my "changeover system" was still functional?

If you undo the two torx bolts holding the actuator on, you should be able to slide the unit out of the manifold. If it's broken, you will see it.

[Boost_creep]

Could you elaborate a little more on this lemmiwinks, and how to attain it?

I've tuned all my previous cars and wouldn't mind squeezing a bit more out of my new daily :)

[AudiTLC]

interesting thread since I have a 3.0 but I'm running the tiptronic.

The metal Gruven Parts changeover is new to me, something to look into. Nice recommend, thanks!

The only thing I would care about is improving the under 80mph performance - meaning real-world street use improvements.
I'm interested because it seems like you are looking at that too.

I used to have a 1.8T 5spd, but much prefer the sound and power of the 3.0. In S mode, it's pretty snappy around town.
I think it slots in nicely between the V8 and 1.8T. Much better mpgs than the V8, much more torque than the 1.8T

As a daily, I think the 3.0 is the best B6 out of the box.

I don't see it as very easy to mod. V motor doesn't leave much space,
and i'm always wary that larger exhaust will kill my low end torque. I'm skeptical it'll do much for the effort and money.
(I have to keep my cats - CALIF)

do the 4.2 and 3.0 run the same tip trans?
The only thing that really appeals to me is a 4.2 or diesel swap, but then you would have the same nightmare that is the 4.2 V8 servicing protocol

I agree there is a cumalative effect from a lot of small changes but you can only determine from the dyno if you want to claim numbers.

but some new info in here Ive never read before so I hope you continue to mod away! :) Happy holidays!

[texasboy21]

Could you elaborate a little more on this lemmiwinks, and how to attain it?

I've tuned all my previous cars and wouldn't mind squeezing a bit more out of my new daily :)

Lemmi is far from a true of 'tuning' software.

http://www.vaglinks.com/OBDII/EdyJun...or_Dummies.pdf

Link to download in the first post:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...inks-The-guide

[imnuts]

It activates at ~3500 RPM, so if you open the hood and somebody revs the engine (not on a cold engine), you will see them work.

Pretty sure it is higher than that, like 4500-5000 RPM.

Sent from my Moto X

[ZimbutheMonkey]

NOTE THIS WAS POSTED IN MY UPDATE #3 SLOT AS WELL

So, I got a chance to do some more tinkering over the holidays and today I decided that I wanted to make a CAI for my car.

Now, let me get this out of the way: "blah blah blah stock Audi airbox is magic blah blah blah, millions of dollars and hundreds of engineers, blah blah blah your car will explode and kittens will die..."

I know all about the dogma surrounding the stock airbox and I don't buy it. I've proven that a properly built CAI on a 1.8t works better than the stock airbox and I have no reason to believe that the 3.0 is any different.

Here's the simple facts behind the design of the stock airbox. All the money and man-hours spent designing that airbox has resulted in the best possible design within the parameters and constraints that Audi imposed on them. Factors like space, noise, cost, etc... drive the design, not optimal performance.

Now, the stock airbox has a few good design features. Namely, isolation from the engine heat and airflow from behind the leading edge of the hood (albeit 4-5 inches and behind a radiator). So I designed some heat shielding as well as keeping the intake duct. My reasoning is that the air blowing through it and onto the filter would displace any hot air that might get past the heat shielding. As well, I made sure to leave a good 6 inches of straight piping in front of the MAF sensor to ensure that I'm getting accurate readings.










I was quite happy with the end result. My driving impressions are that it makes noticibly more torque from 2500-4000 RPM. Didn't notice much on the top end, but I would take the extra torque any day. It's super useful in day to day driving.

So, my verdict is: do it, you'll be glad you did

[texasboy21]

I know all about the dogma surrounding the stock airbox and I don't buy it. I've proven that a properly built CAI on a 1.8t works better than the stock airbox and I have no reason to believe that the 3.0 is any different.

Here's the simple facts behind the design of the stock airbox. All the money and man-hours spent designing that airbox has resulted in the best possible design within the parameters and constraints that Audi imposed on them. Factors like space, noise, cost, etc... drive the design, not optimal performance.

Now, the stock airbox has a few good design features. Namely, isolation from the engine heat and forced airflow from the leading edge of the hood. So I designed some heat shielding as well as keeping the intake duct. My reasoning is that the air blowing through it and onto the filter would displace any hot air that might get past the heat shielding. As well, I made sure to leave a good 6 inches of straight piping in front of the MAF sensor to ensure that I'm getting accurate readings.

So, my verdict is: do it, you'll be glad you did

Any evidence to support the claims that your intake works as well or better than stock? Lets see some before and after logs of the AITs, MAF, timing, etc.?

[SJorge3442]

what the part number on the changeover system?

[SJorge3442]

Never mind. Found it . Called shokane. They want $265 for a used unit. Now I'm trying to justify if it's worth it. I know it is, but I've lived without it for so long.

[Audi 4 Life]

I'm sorry but that is the dumbest mod anyone can do. no matter what you or your ass dyno say a HAI will never be better than the stock (real CAI) system. The ONLY thing you can do is buy K&N.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I'm sorry but that is the dumbest mod anyone can do. no matter what you or your ass dyno say a HAI will never be better than the stock (real CAI) system. The ONLY thing you can do is buy K&N.

Sigh, did they learn you to read at the home...?

You explain to me how my setup is a hot air intake when there is a 3 mm thick metal barrier, with DEI thermal reflective material between the filter and the engine, along with the stock snorkel which is blowing outside air into the partitioned air filter area...

It kinda boggles my mind how so many people here blindly buy into the notion that the stock airbox simply cannot be improved on.

1) If you actually look at the stock intake snorkel location, it's not at the leading edge of the hood. In fact, it's about 4-5 inches back and draws air that has to pass though a heat exchanger first (the A/C rad IIRC). So you're actually getting turbulent air (b/c it's blocked by the rad) which has picked up radiated heat as it passes through the A/C radiator assembly.

2) the incoming air into the stock airbox has to make a sharp 90 deg bend to get into the airbox, then make another 90 deg bend before passing through the panel air filter into the intake tube.

3) there are 2 sections of accordion type tubing (which does not make for smooth laminar flow) in the stock airbox. the first being in the intake snorkel and the second just after the MAF sensor.

Now can someone explain to me how that is somehow more efficient than drawing through a cone filter in a partitioned area being fed by the same snorkel that supplies the stock airbox, which then passes into an internally smooth 90 degree radius bend and then takes a straight shot into the engine through the same diameter, smooth walled silicone tubing (which BTW, is thicker and more heat resistant than the thin walled plastic accordion tubing which is used in the stock intake system?).

I'm sorry, but when I look at the facts laid out here, there is no logical reason for me to believe that the stock airbox flows better than what I have made....

If I was to blindly accept these types of arguments, I'd still be buying $60/gal G-12 coolant, because remember, anything other than that was supposed to wreck my coolant system right? Or maybe never changing my transmission fluid when I had a 5HP-19 transmission because VW said that it was 'lifetime' fluid. Or better yet, not changing my timing belt on my AEB 1.8T until 105,000 miles because that was the factory recommended interval.

In other words, don't blindly believe that everything the manufacturer makes or recommends is the right/best way of doing things.

[SJorge3442]

I mean I'm all for improvement. You should get baseline numbers and compare the after. Otherwise any improvements can't be calculated

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I mean I'm all for improvement. You should get baseline numbers and compare the after. Otherwise any improvements can't be calculated

And I may very well do so once I get another 'dumb' VCDS dongle to replace the one that the crackheads stole when my car got broken into

The one issue I have with straight MAF readings though is that I don't know how well they correlate to torque values. As I stated earlier, I didn't notice much of any improvement in terms of absolute top end HP. Where the improvement seemed to manifest was in midrange torque and throttle response.

So if anyone has any input as to how to accurately measure engine VE, which I understand to be associated with torque values (as opposed to just straight MAF values) I'm all ears.

Never mind. Found it . Called shokane. They want $265 for a used unit. Now I'm trying to justify if it's worth it. I know it is, but I've lived without it for so long.

Oh, and if you can get a changeover mechanism for $265, DO IT! As I said earlier, it makes a very noticeable difference. Perhaps even more so than an ECU flash IMO.

[AudiA4_20T]

dude. Toss a 2.7T block in there with the 2.7T turbos (keep the 3.0 heads and engine harness) and make some power

[ZimbutheMonkey]

dude. Toss a 2.7T block in there with the 2.7T turbos (keep the 3.0 heads and engine harness) and make some power

Lol, oh, it's been considered, trust me. Kinda sucks though at the moment as I'm living 3 1/2 hours away from my garage facilities at my folk's place. Oh yeah, and I'm also just sorting out my solo legal practice and have another $60,000 in student loans to pay off

So, probably no 2.7T swaps in the near future

That said, I'm kinda having fun seeing what I can get out of this engine. I haven't really done a whole lot of N/A tuning before, so it's been interesting to get to know all the ins and outs of how to get power out of them. Definitely different than forced induction tuning. Way, way more incremental and additive. All that being said, I think these 3.0 engines actually have some potential. Sure they're never gonna make the power that you can with a turbo engine, but my impressions with mine is that they can certainly be made fun to drive tho

Also, on a bit of a different note, I was under the impression that the 3.0 heads weren't really compatible with the 2.7T block. I know Polishdupa was trying to adapt them, but IIRC the camshaft system was giving him some serious issues.

Still though, it would be great if you could get the 20 deg variable cam phasing of the 3.0 intake cams working on a 2.7T engine. I'm sure it would be a win win in terms of spool and power gains.

[AudiA4_20T]

Lol, oh, it's been considered, trust me. Kinda sucks though at the moment as I'm living 3 1/2 hours away from my garage facilities at my folk's place. Oh yeah, and I'm also just sorting out my solo legal practice and have another $60,000 in student loans to pay off

So, probably no 2.7T swaps in the near future

That said, I'm kinda having fun seeing what I can get out of this engine. I haven't really done a whole lot of N/A tuning before, so it's been interesting to get to know all the ins and outs of how to get power out of them. Definitely different than forced induction tuning. Way, way more incremental and additive. All that being said, I think these 3.0 engines actually have some potential. Sure they're never gonna make the power that you can with a turbo engine, but my impressions with mine is that they can certainly be made fun to drive tho

Also, on a bit of a different note, I was under the impression that the 3.0 heads weren't really compatible with the 2.7T block. I know Polishdupa was trying to adapt them, but IIRC the camshaft system was giving him some serious issues.

Still though, it would be great if you could get the 20 deg variable cam phasing of the 3.0 intake cams working on a 2.7T engine. I'm sure it would be a win win in terms of spool and power gains.

Not true, he got scared off because someone told him the 3.0 heads are unreliable which is dumb. Agreed with you on spool & power gains.

Anyways I hear you on shop space, $$, etc. I had to pay someone to do an oil change and have to take public transportation down to where my car is. FML

[SJorge3442]

And I may very well do so once I get another 'dumb' VCDS dongle to replace the one that the crackheads stole when my car got broken into

The one issue I have with straight MAF readings though is that I don't know how well they correlate to torque values. As I stated earlier, I didn't notice much of any improvement in terms of absolute top end HP. Where the improvement seemed to manifest was in midrange torque and throttle response.

So if anyone has any input as to how to accurately measure engine VE, which I understand to be associated with torque values (as opposed to just straight MAF values) I'm all ears.



Oh, and if you can get a changeover mechanism for $265, DO IT! As I said earlier, it makes a very noticeable difference. Perhaps even more so than an ECU flash IMO.

I ended up getting one for $100! It sitting in a box at home. I need to wait for the intake manifold gaskets so i can pull the manifold to do the job and solve other issues.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

No need for new intake gaskets to install the changeover mechanism as far as i know. From what I can see, the 3.0 intake manifold uses an o-ring type gasket which should be re-useable. All I did was undo the intake manifold bolts, undid the accordion hose that comes off the MAF (I have already pulled the Hemholz resonator off tho) and tilted the manifold up. That gave enough clearance to pop the new changeover mechanism in.

[SJorge3442]

No need for new intake gaskets to install the changeover mechanism as far as i know. From what I can see, the 3.0 intake manifold uses an o-ring type gasket which should be re-useable. All I did was undo the intake manifold bolts, undid the accordion hose that comes off the MAF (I have already pulled the Hemholz resonator off tho) and tilted the manifold up. That gave enough clearance to pop the new changeover mechanism in.

Im fighting two lean codes so I wanna swap the gasket to ensure everything is kosher under there any way. Hopefully i can get the codes solved.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Im fighting two lean codes so I wanna swap the gasket to ensure everything is kosher under there any way. Hopefully i can get the codes solved.

Gotcha, in fact I probably should have done that myself, I just didn't think about it at the time. Oh well, I've been considering getting some JHM intake spacers as I want to put some of that DEI gold thermal wrap on the entire intake tract and underside of the manifold, so maybe I'll do it then.

[Spike00513]

Im fighting two lean codes so I wanna swap the gasket to ensure everything is kosher under there any way. Hopefully i can get the codes solved.

Why not spray around the base of it with something like carburetor cleaner, to see if it changes the idle, thus indicating a leak there?

Gotcha, in fact I probably should have done that myself, I just didn't think about it at the time. Oh well, I've been considering getting some JHM intake spacers as I want to put some of that DEI gold thermal wrap on the entire intake tract and underside of the manifold, so maybe I'll do it then.

JimmyBones found something better than the DEI

[ZimbutheMonkey]

JimmyBones found something better than the DEI

Got a link by chance?

[imnuts]

I'm sorry but that is the dumbest mod anyone can do. no matter what you or your ass dyno say a HAI will never be better than the stock (real CAI) system. The ONLY thing you can do is buy K&N.

The intake will be better when the car is moving, and either a little worse or even when not moving. I think the intake temps will rise faster if one is sitting not moving, but not significantly. The reason behind this thought is that the stock air box has to heat up before the air inside it can, where this just has to have the heat emanate around the shield, which is easier to do. It'd still be nice to see some logging of intake v. outside temperatures while moving and when idle to compare to stock.

1) If you actually look at the stock intake snorkel location, it's not at the leading edge of the hood. In fact, it's about 4-5 inches back and draws air that has to pass though a heat exchanger first (the A/C rad IIRC). So you're actually getting turbulent air (b/c it's blocked by the rad) which has picked up radiated heat as it passes through the A/C radiator assembly.

No it doesn't. While the intake pipe doesn't come from the very leading edge of the car, it doesn't pull air from behind the A/C evaporator or radiator. It comes from right next to them, and I'd imagine that the heat transfer between the two is fairly negligible. I also doubt that you get much heat from the bumper or grill of the car. I've taken the intake piping out several times and I look in at the front portion that screws to the radiator support to ensure that it is lined up properly every time, and I'm not looking through the radiator.

2) the incoming air into the stock airbox has to make a sharp 90 deg bend to get into the airbox, then make another 90 deg bend before passing through the panel air filter into the intake tube.

Your intake setup still has the two bends. I think most of your power gains will come from the fact that you removed the flexible piping from Audi and replaced it with flexible tubing that has a smooth interior.

Now can someone explain to me how that is somehow more efficient than drawing through a cone filter in a partitioned area being fed by the same snorkel that supplies the stock airbox, which then passes into an internally smooth 90 degree radius bend and then takes a straight shot into the engine through the same diameter, smooth walled silicone tubing (which BTW, is thicker and more heat resistant than the thin walled plastic accordion tubing which is used in the stock intake system?).

While I think your system is an improvement, I think that one could get a little more out of the intake, but it would require a lot more fab work. Just replacing the flex piping Audi used and putting in smooth piping would probably get you about the same changes and allow you to still use the stock filter.

If I was to blindly accept these types of arguments, I'd still be buying $60/gal G-12 coolant, because remember, anything other than that was supposed to wreck my coolant system right? Or maybe never changing my transmission fluid when I had a 5HP-19 transmission because VW said that it was 'lifetime' fluid. Or better yet, not changing my timing belt on my AEB 1.8T until 105,000 miles because that was the factory recommended interval.

I don't think VW/Audi sell G12 anymore, and most other places probably don't either. I think they've all moved to G13 or G12+/++ by now. And the reason you don't run other coolants is that most people wouldn't think to fully flush the old coolant out. You can't mix the G12/13 coolants with the green stuff. The G12/13 coolants are also better for the car cooling system as they have additives that prevent mineral buildup in the cooling system. Also, VW/Audi revised the factory recommended interval for timing belt changes for all 1.8T's AFAIK, and it is now something like 60k or 80k miles as the new interval.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

So here's an interesting set of dyno plots. It was from A-FourLO's thread where he dynoed the stock airbox vs an open aluminium tube. Seems that the open tube picked up about 4-5 WHP and WTQ across the RPM band. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-thread/page11

Unfortunately, no one really seemed to pick up on it. Rather than actually trying to rebut the evidence that was in front of them, the naysayers in this thread just devolved into ripping on him for making his AWD car into a FWD...

This is the dyno plot of the stock airbox vs the open intake tube. Green is the stock Airbox