OSIR cf spoiler installed

[s4buckeye]

I have driven my C63 on several tracks, including his favorite: Thunderhill.

Pretty sure it does absolutely nothing on the track and it was not $2k or some nonsense like West said as it was part of a CF package that I don't think was even $2k.




Sent from my iPhone

[s4buckeye]

btw, I have not driven it without the spoiler, but it does not matter. It is all cosmetic.

even in the turns or on front straight at 130mph + it means nothing.

Sent from my iPhone

[squashman]

No, it still generates 6 kg-f of lift. But it reduces downforce.

Nope. It's a stick on cosmetic piece. That's all.

[CircuitTested]

I'm going to estimate a stock B8 S4 generates 36 kg-f at 200 km/h which is 125 MPH. I'm going to estimate my spoiler reduces it to 6 kg-f at the same speed. Enter this into the Audizine wiki.

You do realize you can actually run your own aero tests with just some tape, string and a GoPro, right? The data, while not quantitative, can solve this stupid debate in no time.

What would you say the aspect ratio is on your nifty little lip spoiler there? Important part of the CL calculation. +CL/Lift is not always corrected by the introduction of -CL/downforce. It can come from a reduction in turbulent flow, re-attachment of laminar flow, addition of vortices, etc...pick your poison. Once you figure out the AR, I think you'll realize what you're trying to justify through a pretty obvious bout of confirmation bias is not only nonsensical, it's got completely the wrong sign.

[chrisbryan89]

You do realize you can actually run your own aero tests with just some tape, string and a GoPro, right? The data, while not quantitative, can solve this stupid debate in no time.

What would you say the aspect ratio is on your nifty little lip spoiler there? Important part of the CL calculation. +CL/Lift is not always corrected by the introduction of -CL/downforce. It can come from a reduction in turbulent flow, re-attachment of laminar flow, addition of vortices, etc...pick your poison. Once you figure out the AR, I think you'll realize what you're trying to justify through a pretty obvious bout of confirmation bias is not only nonsensical, it's got completely the wrong sign.

I don't know what the hell you just said, but it sounded good

[westwest888]

I don't have much knowledge of aerodynamics, but I believe you guys are oversimplifying. If a car has X kg lift pre-spoiler and Y kg downforce with spoiler, it does not mean that the spoiler is literally producing X+Y kg downforce and bearing all that weight. Lift is produced by the overall airflow around the car which the spoiler/wing alters. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This is correct.

Sent from Sony Android by Google Play

[helix139]

I think you'll realize what you're trying to justify through a pretty obvious bout of confirmation bias is not only nonsensical, it's got completely the wrong sign.

West is the walking embodiment of confirmation bias

[helix139]

This is correct.

Sent from Sony Android by Google Play

Not really.

[squashman]

This is correct.

Sent from Sony Android by Google Play

The biggest joke here is the fact that the S4 is probably the fastest car you've ever owned or driven, and your first foray into a modified car. Your previous POS 328i had as much horsepower as a hamster. Yet now, behind the wheel of the S4, you're an expert in driving technique and aerodynamics after a few HPDE days with the BMW club or Audi club. You lose to an A4 avant (and it's always a race, by the way), yet your S4 with AWD and it's special lip spoiler would keep up with or beat 99.9% of the cars on the track, the new M3 included.

Dude, I'm sorry, but you're just a gigantic joke.

[essfour]

Yesterday, while travelling at 90 mph on an empty highway I decided to test West's theory using his tried and true West Logic TM, so I pressed the button and manually retracted my spoiler. The second that it was fully down was the second that my rear end broke loose and caused me to spin off the road. My car just made too much lift at that speed to the point that I became entirely unstable and actually crashed into the guard rail. I was lucky because any faster and my car would have momentarily taken flight. I can see now the reasoning behind Audi's decision to include my speed deploy-able spoiler, it's totally not for looks, at all.

[westwest888]

The biggest joke here is the fact that the S4 is probably the fastest car you've ever owned or driven, and your first foray into a modified car. Your previous POS 328i had as much horsepower as a hamster. Yet now, behind the wheel of the S4, you're an expert in driving technique and aerodynamics after a few HPDE days with the BMW club or Audi club. You lose to an A4 avant (and it's always a race, by the way), yet your S4 with AWD and it's special lip spoiler would keep up with or beat 99.9% of the cars on the track, the new M3 included.

Dude, I'm sorry, but you're just a gigantic joke.

In 8 years of going to the track, I've most assuredly driven and ridden in far faster cars with both more and less horsepower. Your infatuation with horsepower tells me you know nothing about cars. I've ridden in a 10 year old Z4 with that same hamster engine (the N52, man's greatest achievement prior to the 3.0TFSI) that is faster than any Audi on this board. It was a magnesium block and the engine shaved over 100 pounds over the outgoing 3.0L. The limiting factors on that platform were: no aftermarket forced induction like a SC; no LSD. The chariot really was sent from god to remedy my issues with my old BMW, which was faster than the early V8 S5 models but was leagues below the RS4.

Regarding "is this a joke", this is a forum that exists only to sell advertisements and placement for vendors. I patronize vendors by ordering their parts, and attempt to find and quantify the merit in their products. I could have said "this spoiler looks sick" and I'd only made a qualitative judgement - a matter of taste. We know BMW is able to take 10kg-f of lift off of the M3 compared to the 328i with only a diminutive lip spoiler barely as tall as a penny. I've gone with a much more aggressive lip spoiler in an attempt to fight more lift and get the best aero possible without a full trunk wing.

I'm so emboldened by my findings that I'm now moving on to front aero. Naturally, you all know this is happening:

[IanCH]

You would be much better served to panel off the bottom of the car and add a functional rear diffuser.

There is an echo in here, but that front piece is even more laughably beneficial than the lip.

[westwest888]

I would like opinions on what punching out the plastic fog light filler panel would do to front aero. On the driver's side it's open for the secondary heat exchanger; as you see here on the passenger side it's a filler plate. If I punch it out, I will increase the coefficient of drag. I'm not certain if that will create downforce also. What do people who can follow this thread think?

[SwankPeRFection]

Yes, it will increase drag... obviously.... because the air cannot escape out the back properly. Additionally, it'll open up the components behind that panel up to debris from the front not he road. Also, the force of air coming into that area will also push against the wheel well covers behind them and since those aren't louvered, they'll tell to bow out a bit under the pressure and if they gear really soggy and wet from such weather conditions in the area you may live in, the tires will eventually make contact and over time wear out/destroy them to the point where they need to be replaced. If you follow this forum closely, you'll know this has happened before on the driver side for some people and they all wonder why their covers are screwed up... this is why. Now, you could louver them by cutting slats in them as long as doing so won't help throw in dirt and water to vital components that should be protected behind there... but then all that does is take all that air and send it rushing out the back and around you wheels, so it may no anything for you or it may add additional airflow for brake cooling, but I doubt it would make a big impact if any.

[squashman]

In 8 years of going to the track, I've most assuredly driven and ridden in far faster cars with both more and less horsepower. Your infatuation with horsepower tells me you know nothing about cars. I've ridden in a 10 year old Z4 with that same hamster engine (the N52, man's greatest achievement prior to the 3.0TFSI) that is faster than any Audi on this board. It was a magnesium block and the engine shaved over 100 pounds over the outgoing 3.0L. The limiting factors on that platform were: no aftermarket forced induction like a SC; no LSD. The chariot really was sent from god to remedy my issues with my old BMW, which was faster than the early V8 S5 models but was leagues below the RS4.

Regarding "is this a joke", this is a forum that exists only to sell advertisements and placement for vendors. I patronize vendors by ordering their parts, and attempt to find and quantify the merit in their products. I could have said "this spoiler looks sick" and I'd only made a qualitative judgement - a matter of taste. We know BMW is able to take 10kg-f of lift off of the M3 compared to the 328i with only a diminutive lip spoiler barely as tall as a penny. I've gone with a much more aggressive lip spoiler in an attempt to fight more lift and get the best aero possible without a full trunk wing.

I'm so emboldened by my findings that I'm now moving on to front aero. Naturally, you all know this is happening:

...

[Leor604]

I would like opinions on what punching out the plastic fog light filler panel would do to front aero. On the driver's side it's open for the secondary heat exchanger; as you see here on the passenger side it's a filler plate. If I punch it out, I will increase the coefficient of drag. I'm not certain if that will create downforce also. What do people who can follow this thread think?

Yes, it will increase drag. It is far less efficient to move air *through* the vehicle as opposed to *around* the vehicle. It will not create downforce, as front downforce is created by decreasing air under the car and increasing air over the car (ground-hugging air dam). By opening a hole in the front, that additional air has to exhaust under the car as we don't have hood vents ala Ford GT, Ferrari F50.

A vented hood would help with downforce (and underhood temps) as some of the massive amount of air coming into the front grill would then be allowed to exhaust over the car instead of pressurizing the underside of the car. I would love a vented hood except for the fact they are a little too boy racer for my taste.

[westwest888]

Yes, it will increase drag... obviously.... because the air cannot escape out the back properly. Additionally, it'll open up the components behind that panel up to debris from the front not he road. Also, the force of air coming into that area will also push against the wheel well covers behind them and since those aren't louvered, they'll tell to bow out a bit under the pressure and if they gear really soggy and wet from such weather conditions in the area you may live in, the tires will eventually make contact and over time wear out/destroy them to the point where they need to be replaced. If you follow this forum closely, you'll know this has happened before on the driver side for some people and they all wonder why their covers are screwed up... this is why. Now, you could louver them by cutting slats in them as long as doing so won't help throw in dirt and water to vital components that should be protected behind there... but then all that does is take all that air and send it rushing out the back and around you wheels, so it may no anything for you or it may add additional airflow for brake cooling, but I doubt it would make a big impact if any.

Funny you mention this, my driver's side wheel well felt is all blown out and I can see the back of the heat exchanger. I just laugh when I see it because racecar.

What if I put a funnel behind the fog light and piped the air to the inside of the wheel well, for right side brake cooling?

[NWS4Guy]

Funny you mention this, my driver's side wheel well felt is all blown out and I can see the back of the heat exchanger. I just laugh when I see it because racecar.

What if I put a funnel behind the fog light and piped the air to the inside of the wheel well, for right side brake cooling?

You would be better off doing something more professional like PsY did with his NACA ducts for brake cooling. Taking air from the back of a radiator to cool brakes? How well do you think piping heated air onto something to cool them will work?


http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post7531722

[S|Quattro|4]

Honestly, you're better off strapping a 45lb plate in your trunk than with the lip spoiler you added. The spoiler will only generate the downforce down the straight at high speeds. You won't be able to generate any of that downforce in the corners, since the car doesn't have the ability to maintain a high enough minimum speed through the corners for the spoiler to be able to its job. On the other hand, if you have the 45lb plate, you will have that extra 45lbs throughout the corner regardless of the speed that you go.

The point of downforce is not to generate it down the straights, its to generate it in the corners so the car can brake later, turn in faster, maintain a higher minimum speed, and be able to get back on power faster. Unfortunately, having wings generates a lot of drag, which slows you down, and the peak downforce is generated at top speed. F1 teams found some ways around that to lessen the drag, with flexible wings, f-ducts, off throttle blown diffusors, and now the FIA mandated DRS. Also, they found ways of designing front wings and little wings/extensions on other parts of the car that generate more downforce while the car is in yaw. These wing extensions do very little while going in a straight line too, so they don't generate a lot of drag down the straights.

Again, if your lip spoiler is only generating that amount of downforce above 130mph, you really won't be able to use it, bc I doubt there are any corners that this car can go 130mph in.

[svander]

You would be better off doing something more professional like PsY did with his NACA ducts for brake cooling. Taking air from the back of a radiator to cool brakes? How well do you think piping heated air onto something to cool them will work?


http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post7531722

You're making too much sense. Please stop.

[westwest888]

Honestly, you're better off strapping a 45lb plate in your trunk than with the lip spoiler you added. The spoiler will only generate the downforce down the straight at high speeds. You won't be able to generate any of that downforce in the corners, since the car doesn't have the ability to maintain a high enough minimum speed through the corners for the spoiler to be able to its job. On the other hand, if you have the 45lb plate, you will have that extra 45lbs throughout the corner regardless of the speed that you go.

The point of downforce is not to generate it down the straights, its to generate it in the corners so the car can brake later, turn in faster, maintain a higher minimum speed, and be able to get back on power faster. Unfortunately, having wings generates a lot of drag, which slows you down, and the peak downforce is generated at top speed. F1 teams found some ways around that to lessen the drag, with flexible wings, f-ducts, and now the FIA mandated DRS. Also, they found ways of designing front wings and little wings/extensions on other parts of the car that generate more downforce while the car is in yaw. These wing extensions do very little while going in a straight line too, so they don't generate a lot of drag down the straights.

Again, if your lip spoiler is only generating that amount of downforce above 130mph, you really won't be able to use it, bc I doubt there are any corners that this car can go 130mph in.

I'd like to confront this head on. How much faster can a Carrera go through a turn than me? 3 MPH? 4 MPH at most? Entry speeds for most fast turns are around 82 MPH.

There aren't any road courses where you start turns at 130 MPH.

[westwest888]

You would be better off doing something more professional like PsY did with his NACA ducts for brake cooling. Taking air from the back of a radiator to cool brakes? How well do you think piping heated air onto something to cool them will work?


http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post7531722

There's no radiator on the passenger side. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[S|Quattro|4]

I'd like to confront this head on. How much faster can a Carrera go through a turn than me? 3 MPH? 4 MPH at most? Entry speeds for most fast turns are around 82 MPH.

There aren't any road courses where you start turns at 130 MPH.

Right, so your entry speed is 82mph, what is your spoiler generating at that speed?

There are better ways to increase your minimum speed, losing weight, better tires, adjusting shocks and springs, etc.

[westwest888]

I think what we need to have is an honest discussion about what aero is used for, and how it applies to my situation. If you watch a GT3 Cup race, you'll see 40 of the same car all turning identical lap times with 1/10 of a second of each other. Aero tweaks are what make the cars competitive, everything else being regulated as equal. On a course where I am lucky to pull out a 1:45 lap they're pulling out 1:27 repeatedly. On relatively small straights where I am able to push 110 MPH, they're pushing 135 MPH. The cup cars get into the aero sweet spot for a much higher percentage of their travel around the course.

Of course these cup body kits make it onto the fastest road cars like the GT3, the R8, and the special edition M3 and C63 cars. The question is why does the manufacturer do it if the car isn't going fast enough to really use it? Who is the buyer and why do they care? Let's drill into the M3 GTS, since the M3 is a very popular track car in California (a market with a lot of wealthy buyers who can afford to ball up an $80k car). If you go to an average BMW CCA or Audi Club California event (any chapter) you'll see that over 50% of the models are ///M, S or GT(x) models. When I go out on track there may be 30 cars in the field and 5 other B8 S4's I'm sharing the road with, and maybe 10 B8 models in total (from A4 to RS5). We've all done brake work. The A4 might go aggressive on their tune, turbo and suspension kit to keep up with the pack, which those cars can easily do. It's amazing once they're going 90 MPH it's not hard to keep them there - you just brake less and hold on for dear life.

Aero is one way you give yourself a very small handling edge, given a field of cars with extremely similar capability running the same mods. If you're on track with 15 guys and girls running the e90 and e92 M3, and you can run a GTS you have a slight advantage. The M3 engine doesn't tune cheaply or easily and is more or less stuck at 414 HP unless you put $25,000 into it. Of course the S4 is engine tuneable so aero is a secondary consideration. I've already tuned so I'm considering aero an advantage over other tuned drivers at the top of the HPDE game. Now you can start hating on the HPDE game.

[drob23]

Why don't you just buy a wing?

[S|Quattro|4]

I think what we need to have is an honest discussion about what aero is used for, and how it applies to my situation. If you watch a GT3 Cup race, you'll see 40 of the same car all turning identical lap times with 1/10 of a second of each other. Aero tweaks are what make the cars competitive, everything else being regulated as equal. On a course where I am lucky to pull out a 1:45 lap they're pulling out 1:27 repeatedly. On relatively small straights where I am able to push 110 MPH, they're pushing 135 MPH. The cup cars get into the aero sweet spot for a much higher percentage of their travel around the course.

Of course these cup body kits make it onto the fastest road cars like the GT3, the R8, and the special edition M3 and C63 cars. The question is why does the manufacturer do it if the car isn't going fast enough to really use it? Who is the buyer and why do they care? Let's drill into the M3 GTS, since the M3 is a very popular track car in California (a market with a lot of wealthy buyers who can afford to ball up an $80k car). If you go to an average BMW CCA or Audi Club California event (any chapter) you'll see that over 50% of the models are ///M, S or GT(x) models. When I go out on track there may be 30 cars in the field and 5 other B8 S4's I'm sharing the road with, and maybe 10 B8 models in total (from A4 to RS5). We've all done brake work. The A4 might go aggressive on their tune, turbo and suspension kit to keep up with the pack, which those cars can easily do. It's amazing once they're going 90 MPH it's not hard to keep them there - you just brake less and hold on for dear life.

Aero is one way you give yourself a very small handling edge, given a field of cars with extremely similar capability running the same mods. If you're on track with 15 guys and girls running the e90 and e92 M3, and you can run a GTS you have a slight advantage. The M3 engine doesn't tune cheaply or easily and is more or less stuck at 414 HP unless you put $25,000 into it. Of course the S4 is engine tuneable so aero is a secondary consideration. I've already tuned so I'm considering aero an advantage over other tuned drivers at the top of the HPDE game. Now you can start hating on the HPDE game.

"If you watch a GT3 Cup race, you'll see 40 of the same car all turning identical lap times with 1/10 of a second of each other. Aero tweaks are what make the cars competitive, everything else being regulated as equal."

Sorry, but that isn't completely true. They can't make a lot of aero tweaks (all they can really do is adjust rear wing). So that is not the reason why some are a couple tenths faster than others. The main reason, aside from driver ability, is the set up of the car, as in shocks (rebound, bump), springs, ride height, rake, camber, toe, tire pressure, etc. Its not just one thing, its a combination of things, and aero is probably the least important, Actually, aero is one of the last tweaks a driver will ask for. If the driver feels like the car is handling good, but its *just* oversteering or understeering in high speed corners, or fast entries, then they make a slight aero change to adjust the balance of the car.

The best way to give yourself an advantage over the other cars is to lose weight. This car is a pig, weighing almost 4000lbs. If you can lose weight, not only will you be able to go faster on the straights, but you'll also be able to take turns slightly quicker.

[chrisbryan89]

But west, if it isn't a race then why does it matter how you compare to other cars? I mean, that is what you said when confronted that a B8 A4 closed on you pretty hard, "It isn't a race."

[westwest888]

But west, if it isn't a race then why does it matter how you compare to other cars? I mean, that is what you said when confronted that a B8 A4 closed on you pretty hard, "It isn't a race."

The idea is to drive around the track with the least amount of driver effort possible. If you walk off track relaxed, not only were you likely safer but you probably also put down one of your fastest laps (or at least were the most consistent, building muscle memory and repetition). The A4 might need to muscle it to keep up. A highly tuned S4 might be doing a Sunday drive at similar lap times.

[NWS4Guy]

There's no radiator on the passenger side. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Read what you wrote that I quoted, then read my reply. You were talking about the driver's side, then talked about ducting in there. If you would like to have a discussion about the passenger's side, you need to know that people do not read minds, and change the topic to that in text when you are changing frames of reference.

If you want to open the passenger side to cool that sides brakes, what are you going to do with the drivers side? No cooling?

[S|Quattro|4]

The idea is to drive around the track with the least amount of driver effort possible. If you walk off track relaxed, not only were you likely safer but you probably also put down one of your fastest laps (or at least were the most consistent, building muscle memory and repetition). The A4 might need to muscle it to keep up. A highly tuned S4 might be doing a Sunday drive at similar lap times.

Mate, quit acting like you know a ton about racing. If an A4 needs a little more muscle to keep up, and the driver comes out tired, then that means he was pushing harder and getting more out of the car. If you're doing a Sunday drive in your faster S4, then you aren't getting the most out of your car. A fast lap will feel like the car is on the edge and it'll feel like there is very little room for error, specially if this is the fastest car you have driven.

[chrisbryan89]

I'm just saying, you are always talking crap about how you beat up on much more expensive cars on the track with your $20k cheaper S4, but when you get passed by an A4 it's not a race. Again, comments like these are why people are always on your case around here. And the only reason I am starting to point this out is because others seem to think you are some innocent child that is always getting picked on, when in fact, you bring it on yourself most of the time. Emphasis on most, because there are times when you actually have constructive things to say.

[westwest888]

Mate, quit acting like you know a ton about racing. If an A4 needs a little more muscle to keep up, and the driver comes out tired, then that means he was pushing harder and getting more out of the car. If you're doing a Sunday drive in your faster S4, then you aren't getting the most out of your car. A fast lap will feel like the car is on the edge and it'll feel like there is very little room for error, specially if this is the fastest car you have driven.

Well, it is usually on Sunday. And most people work 50 hour weeks and are tired by then. And the point of the schools is instruction and learning. Over 80% of the drivers on track have their stability programs enabled, so how much can they even learn? There's guys out there blowing 2 turns a lap and letting the computer clip their car back on line.

The goal of each mod is to make it slightly less harrowing to place the car around the track. I've achieved my goal and it's worth $500 of incremental value to me. Meaning I don't need $500 for something else, and I perceive value in the new setup. I know it's not the $5900 aero cup kit you can add to any 911 order. I know it won't create actual downforce at 125 MPH. I know it does make the S4 more stable.

[Audacious]

I know it won't create actual downforce at 125 MPH. I know it does make the S4 more stable.

what

[CircuitTested]

Well, it is usually on Sunday. And most people work 50 hour weeks and are tired by then. And the point of the schools is instruction and learning. Over 80% of the drivers on track have their stability programs enabled, so how much can they even learn? There's guys out there blowing 2 turns a lap and letting the computer clip their car back on line.

The goal of each mod is to make it slightly less harrowing to place the car around the track. I've achieved my goal and it's worth $500 of incremental value to me. Meaning I don't need $500 for something else, and I perceive value in the new setup. I know it's not the $5900 aero cup kit you can add to any 911 order. I know it won't create actual downforce at 125 MPH. I know it does make the S4 more stable.

If you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen. The sport is attractive to a large number of people because it is difficult, because it is technically complicated and because it is one helluva adrenaline rush. If what you are looking for is an easy lap around a track then go talk to the Google driverless car guys and reduce the stress level entirely.

[S|Quattro|4]

Well, it is usually on Sunday. And most people work 50 hour weeks and are tired by then. And the point of the schools is instruction and learning. Over 80% of the drivers on track have their stability programs enabled, so how much can they even learn? There's guys out there blowing 2 turns a lap and letting the computer clip their car back on line.

The goal of each mod is to make it slightly less harrowing to place the car around the track. I've achieved my goal and it's worth $500 of incremental value to me. Meaning I don't need $500 for something else, and I perceive value in the new setup. I know it's not the $5900 aero cup kit you can add to any 911 order. I know it won't create actual downforce at 125 MPH. I know it does make the S4 more stable.

Man listen, if people are getting their cars so out of shape that the car's traction/stability controls need to get the car back in line multiple times, then they aren't being taught right and don't know where the limits of their cars are.

Im not flaming you on spending $500 on a spoiler, if you like it good for you. You're just making unrealistic claims. You have said things that have merit, but other things that come out of you know where. I don't know what your racing background is, but I promise you, even if you had a big wing attached to the back of your car, you wouldn't be able to feel the difference, Im pretty sure you wouldn't even be able to take advantage of the added downforce. It takes years, and lap after lap, for a driver to get a feel of what the car does out on track, and what each change does to the balance of the car, especially if they are tiny changes .

[westwest888]

Man listen, if people are getting their cars so out of shape that the car's traction/stability controls need to get the car back in line multiple times, then they aren't being taught right and don't know where the limits of their cars are.

Im not flaming you on spending $500 on a spoiler, if you like it good for you. You're just making unrealistic claims. You have said things that have merit, but other things that come out of you know where. I don't know what your racing background is, but I promise you, even if you had a big wing attached to the back of your car, you wouldn't be able to feel the difference, Im pretty sure you wouldn't even be able to take advantage of the added downforce. It takes years, and lap after lap, for a driver to get a feel of what the car does out on track, and what each change does to the balance of the car, especially if they are tiny changes .

Agreed on most points. I'm quantifying the claim. I'm not saying you'll be able to know the difference between 50 pounds of lift and 0 lift when your ass is tighter than a snare drum for the brief 0.5 seconds the car is above 125 MPH.

I have over 1500 laps on Thunderhill (and probably another 1000 laps sitting shotgun in other cars). Other than finding the reckless limit of a particular turn on Pilot Super Sports until the car pitches itself sideways, the way to keep it interesting is to tweak something (one thing) and repeat your line/lap for a weekend.

[Akatsuki...]

I know it won't create actual downforce at 125 MPH. I know it does make the S4 more stable.

Quote of the year.

[westwest888]

Quote of the year.

-25kg-f of lift. Isn't that what we all want? Neutral handling?

[NWS4Guy]

I think what he is saying (which is accurate), is that you don't need to have down force to negate the lift. You can lower drag, or speed up the air coming over the top of the car to decrease lift.

Decreasing lift will increase the "down force" which gravity will supply.

[paulo6]

I worked in the automotive industry for 12 years, I am an Engineer (mechanical with automotive dynamics concentration believe it or not), STILL ..even though some of what Im reading above is Chinese to me, Im enjoying this thread tremendously.... very entertaining... Im not going to bash West theory (enough of that going on) or side with it ...Im just observing and enjoying and thought I share that with you all and thank you :)