Exhaust manifolds vs stock manifold

[ama]

So i made a research, and called all the companies that make s4 b5 platform manifolds and there really aren't any good solid product on the market.( i mean the ones that will fit tial 770 turbos) They cost allot, they look good, but they will crack with in 10000km. But the interesting thing is that you cant really find a thread where someone is actually saying i bought this manifold for 3000$ and it f..ed up. So then i searched for used ones on ebay and german market, and found couple of the top aftermarket exhaust manifolds sold by the guys running 605/770 kits. All three of them are fixed and the holes are re welded. So after 3 months of searching reading asking 034 and so on i came to conclusion that more reliable than the stock ones you wont get( and let me point out i said RELIABLE not outperform)
I have another thing to point out there are manifolds ceramic coated and ported ones sold on the market(stock)
Actually porting them in the place where its welded actually makes them weaker,because 70% of the cases when the stock manifold cracks is right at that spot. So porting them and making the metal thinner will actually make it weaker. If anyone would subscribe in this thread and say that they are running this kind of manifold and it took the abuse of 770 at least 550whp i would appreciate it. This is what i have, but i would really want something better.

[topquarkpc]

me no understand what u say.
me stop reading half way.
me sorry.
me found this tho.
http://www.wagner-tuning.com/AUDI-S4...olds_p_27.html
will it help? me don't know...

[ama]

me no understand what u say.
me stop reading half way.
me sorry.
me found this tho.
http://www.wagner-tuning.com/AUDI-S4...olds_p_27.html
will it help? me don't know...

what you mean found? I can find you 3-4 types of manifolds.
Have you used them? Have they proved 1700$? Eres un normal?

[topquarkpc]

well...i don't run 770's so the setup i have won' count...so i'll move on...
good luck tho...

[Drehmoment]

From my research every high end build in Europe uses cast manifolds....MTM Wagner Loba with NO documented failures . MTM has manufacturer status so maybe that has something to do with it and the have been for a decade and a half in circulation.

[ama]

From my research every high end build in Europe uses cast manifolds....MTM Wagner Loba with NO documented failures . MTM has manufacturer status so maybe that has something to do with it and the have been for a decade and a half in circulation.

Wagner don't fit tial 770, and who said they don't fail? They do. Loba is 3600$. Not ready for that.

[ama]

From my research every high end build in Europe uses cast manifolds....MTM Wagner Loba with NO documented failures . MTM has manufacturer status so maybe that has something to do with it and the have been for a decade and a half in circulation.

[haggard69er]

i recently stumbled across these. the slip fittings will deter if not eliminate cracking.

https://www.facebook.com/AGMotorsportUG

[Drehmoment]

Wagner don't fit tial 770, and who said they don't fail? They do. Loba is 3600$. Not ready for that.

If you search there are some pics of Wagners with 770's or 605's, I think the poster is from Scandinavia, a little grinding and it fit.

If you are concerned with Wagner's quality you can get MTM manifolds probably new and for sure on German e bay used.

MTM made them first in the early 2000's and there are several revisions, $$$ wise I believe they are similar to Loba.

[ama]

If you search there are some pics of Wagners with 770's or 605's, I think the poster is from Scandinavia, a little grinding and it fit.

If you are concerned with Wagner's quality you can get MTM manifolds probably new and for sure on German e bay used.

MTM made them first in the early 2000's and there are several revisions, $$$ wise I believe they are similar to Loba.

Not just grinding, you have to modify the downpipe. Thx for the info, ill see what i can find.

[Drehmoment]

http://www.mtm-online.de/de/Audi/RS4...T=m-0s4agk27tl

[ama]

I sent them an email, lets see what they say about fitment on tial 770

[ama]

i recently stumbled across these. the slip fittings will deter if not eliminate cracking.

https://www.facebook.com/AGMotorsportUG

these actually look really good, and the price is ok

[martin0079]

Check out these dxc manifolds thèy are schedule 40 instead of schedule 10

[naudlee]

Properly Ported/Ceramic coated OEM manifolds > unless your spending huge dollar$ on something top tier...

[landfill]

The AG manifolds and the ARD tubular manifolds are identical.
Also Agtronic closed shop so I had to go with ARD.

[Meow]

Cutting slots for expansion helps prevent cracking as well.

[ama]

Properly Ported/Ceramic coated OEM manifolds > unless your spending huge dollar$ on something top tier...

So whats your opinion? When people port them like on the foto at the place where its welded, making the wall thiner. This is the place where i often see cracks on stock manifolds.

[Meow]

thèy

Why is there an acute accent on this e?
Give me a twitch, seeing that...

[ama]

Properly Ported/Ceramic coated OEM manifolds > unless your spending huge dollar$ on something top tier...

And a question for you. The ones you sell, ported and ceramic coated ones. How much miles do they have on them when you buy them ? The one on the photo is actually bought of you as you probably realized by now.

[urS4]

Just 2 weeks ago I bought a new to me B5 S4 with an incredible build list. It was built by a mutual friend, Dave Jones of S-Line Motorsports, that has done 2 previous builds for me and i was around at the end of 2009 during the entire build of this S4. There was a conscious decision to use the stock exhaust manifold because of the failures with existing tubular manifolds. The stock manifold was given a very light porting to enhance flow but not weaken any points and was also thermal coated. Next, there was a custom set of downpipes crafted with a very long waste gate exhaust. This car has had 2 sets of Tial 770 turbos with mixed results. The first set were never right and eventually the passenger side failed. It took several years but the turbos were eventually replaced. This second set were finally installed about 6 months ago. The dyno results i have, 550hp at the wheels, are from the initial tuning event with the first set of turbos. The second set of turbos have shown a marked improvement in spool and top end power. My butt dyno shows somewhere north of 600hp at the wheels. My plan is the enhance the intake from the cold air box and add an SMIC NOS spray bar to cool the charge air. The car should easily deliver consistent 600hp+ runs. More to follow.

So all in all, I don't think I'm losing a whole lot with the stock manifold. More will be revealed in the near future once I get the car back on the rollers.





Hap, wit dakine manis not from Evahboost, Maguire

[ama]

Just 2 weeks ago I bought a new to me B5 S4 with an incredible build list. It was built by a mutual friend, Dave Jones of S-Line Motorsports, that has done 2 previous builds for me and i was around at the end of 2009 during the entire build of this S4. There was a conscious decision to use the stock exhaust manifold because of the failures with existing tubular manifolds. The stock manifold was given a very light porting to enhance flow but not weaken any points and was also thermal coated. Next, there was a custom set of downpipes crafted with a very long waste gate exhaust. This car has had 2 sets of Tial 770 turbos with mixed results. The first set were never right and eventually the passenger side failed. It took several years but the turbos were eventually replaced. This second set were finally installed about 6 months ago. The dyno results i have, 550hp at the wheels, are from the initial tuning event with the first set of turbos. The second set of turbos have shown a marked improvement in spool and top end power. My butt dyno shows somewhere north of 600hp at the wheels. My plan is the enhance the intake from the cold air box and add an SMIC NOS spray bar to cool the charge air. The car should easily deliver consistent 600hp+ runs. More to follow.

So all in all, I don't think I'm losing a whole lot with the stock manifold. More will be revealed in the near future once I get the car back on the rollers.





Hap, wit dakine manis not from Evahboost, Maguire

How much miles on the manifolds? How much psi? I also see you have a rs4 bipipe, and probably rs4 throttle body. Thank you for this info.

[Mikse]

So all in all, I don't think I'm losing a whole lot with the stock manifold.

What is your EGTs on top speed run?

[urS4]

How much miles on the manifolds? How much psi? I also see you have a rs4 bipipe, and probably rs4 throttle body. Thank you for this info.

I do have the RS4 bipipe but I have the 034 DBC(drive by cable) kit and larger throttle body mounted to an RS4 intake manifold that has been ported and has an enlarged plenum. The 034 DBC is because I am MAFless with the 034 iic EMS. The car has many trick mods. I run about 30 lbs of boost on the street with the E85 program. The manifolds have about 8000 miles on them. I do not have an EGT gauge at this time.

Hap, wit dakine mods not from Evahboost, Maguire

[ama]

I do have the RS4 bipipe but I have the 034 DBC(drive by cable) kit and larger throttle body mounted to an RS4 intake manifold that has been ported and has an enlarged plenum. The 034 DBC is because I am MAFless with the 034 iic EMS. The car has many trick mods. I run about 30 lbs of boost on the street with the E85 program. The manifolds have about 8000 miles on them. I do not have an EGT gauge at this time.

Im in love with your Ur-S4, that car is the best definition of perfection. Its a work of art

[getslideways]

The AG manifolds and the ARD tubular manifolds are identical.
Also Agtronic closed shop so I had to go with ARD.

these:

https://www.facebook.com/AGMotorsportUG



and these???


http://www.ardesign.org/Ard-27T-High...ds-Ard-007.htm




The only tubular style i have personally seen from ARD always seemed to be setup for custom turbos utilizing external wastegates or different flanges:

[Meow]

and these???


http://www.ardesign.org/Ard-27T-High...ds-Ard-007.htm

these are badass

[urS4]

Im in love with your Ur-S4, that car is the best definition of perfection. Its a work of art

I would, of course, have to agree with you there. Its currently under the knife to restructure the front end so we can hold on to all its power. New features include a custom chrome moly front subframe and custom a-arm suspension. Custom front engine mounts, girdle, mid plate with mounts and transmission mounts. We just received the custom billet crank. This car has put down 755hp at the wheels with the old turbo which was swapped out with a billet compressor wheel and the corresponding enlarged compressor housing. Once again the butt dyno puts the power at about 850 hp at the wheels. All this new stuff is to be able to protect what we already have. As you know if you know this car the rest of the build sheet is amazing. I do love the way its come together.







Its kind of fun having 52 valves with 5.2 liters and 3 turbos putting out over 1700 hp. Oh the fun.

Hap, wit dakine 3 turbos not from Evahboost, Maguire

[ama]

I would, of course, have to agree with you there. Its currently under the knife to restructure the front end so we can hold on to all its power. New features include a custom chrome moly front subframe and custom a-arm suspension. Custom front engine mounts, girdle, mid plate with mounts and transmission mounts. We just received the custom billet crank. This car has put down 755hp at the wheels with the old turbo which was swapped out with a billet compressor wheel and the corresponding enlarged compressor housing. Once again the butt dyno puts the power at about 850 hp at the wheels. All this new stuff is to be able to protect what we already have. As you know if you know this car the rest of the build sheet is amazing. I do love the way its come together.







Its kind of fun having 52 valves with 5.2 liters and 3 turbos putting out over 1700 hp. Oh the fun.

Hap, wit dakine 3 turbos not from Evahboost, Maguire

So next step would be racelogic numbers 100-200. My guess is that it will run low 5 sec?

[urS4]

So next step would be racelogic numbers 100-200. My guess is that it will run low 5 sec?

Well, we've got to get the car back on the road again before we start assessing performance. I forgot to mention that part of this current build on the urS4 is to incorporate some of what was done to the B5 S4. We had the rear diff sent off for a rebuild and strengthening and added limited slip. We also had the tranny rebuilt with close ratio gears, added limited slip and chryo treated everything. The tranny already had the high bias center diff treatment done. After getting some time behind the wheel of the B5 in all sorts of conditions on summer tires I'm really glad we did all this stuff to the urS4. The traction is just spooky good.

Hap, wit dakine spooks not from Evahboost, Maguire

[ama]

Well, we've got to get the car back on the road again before we start assessing performance. I forgot to mention that part of this current build on the urS4 is to incorporate some of what was done to the B5 S4. We had the rear diff sent off for a rebuild and strengthening and added limited slip. We also had the tranny rebuilt with close ratio gears, added limited slip and chryo treated everything. The tranny already had the high bias center difftreatment done. After getting some time behind the wheel of the B5 in all sorts of conditions on summer tires I'm really glad we did all this stuff to the urS4. The traction is just spooky good.

Hap, wit dakine spooks not from Evahboost, Maguire

Are you the only owner since 1993?

[urS4]

Are you the only owner since 1993?

Yes, I bought it brand new in 1993. Started modifying it the first day.

[ama]

Yes, I bought it brand new in 1993. Started modifying it the first day.

21 years, i guess thats what you call one love

[urS4]

21 years, i guess thats what you call one love

Yes it is. Same thing with my wife. High school sweethearts that married 46 years ago. She's an amazing woman that puts up with my hobbies almost without objection.

[Mikse]

these are badass

Did you mean bad From ass? Those are just simply horrible.

[slowrideBC]

im surprised no one has mentioned KKD...he uses carbon steel 2.6mm thick.....some bad ass shit

Im happy with my ARD tubular GT manis...

really nice urS4

[beerock]

From all the header threads I've read no one can seem to get the aftermarket headers right. The OEM headers have a inner and outer design to transfer heat. Most tubulars if im not mistaken don't.
Another problem is people wrapping their aftermarket headers and that causes premature failure due to the metal wanting to expand and the heat wrap stops it, so they crack.

I dont see a tubular header design working unless they incorporate an inner and outer header design, the problem with doing this is the amount of space needed to do it. Im not sure you can hack away the area where the headers are to make more room, if there is then its possible.

Another way to make headers work would be to make them inner and outer with a water cooling design, the inherent problem with this is space as the headers will need to be designed to have a larger inner diameter because they will not expand with water cooling, and now we are back to the space constrictions.

One other way to possibly stop cracking would be to increase the thickness of tubing and while the increased thickness will probably make the tubular design the same inner diameter as a OEM header, the exhaust flow out if each cylinder would be made equal length thus improving flow characteristics.

As far as the OEM headers go the only thing I dont like is they are not equal length, and most turbo charged cars do not need equal length due to the charged intake side firing its way through, however the fact that the OEM headers are not equal and the shorter length pipes actually spit out exhaust fumes and they hit a wall so to speak and then turn towards the exhaust outlet is in my opinion not optimized for exhaust flow and inherently slows the flow down compared to a tubular design.

So its a catch 22



Sent from my bad ass Nokia Lumia 920

[AwdOwns]

these are badass

Do they not have the same issue as when he made them for Vast as seen in the link below?

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...anifolds-B5-S4

[ama]

Do they not have the same issue as when he made them for Vast as seen in the link below?

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...anifolds-B5-S4

They do, i know 2 guys which bought them and they cracked.

[ama]

From all the header threads I've read no one can seem to get the aftermarket headers right. The OEM headers have a inner and outer design to transfer heat. Most tubulars if im not mistaken don't.
Another problem is people wrapping their aftermarket headers and that causes premature failure due to the metal wanting to expand and the heat wrap stops it, so they crack.

I dont see a tubular header design working unless they incorporate an inner and outer header design, the problem with doing this is the amount of space needed to do it. Im not sure you can hack away the area where the headers are to make more room, if there is then its possible.

Another way to make headers work would be to make them inner and outer with a water cooling design, the inherent problem with this is space as the headers will need to be designed to have a larger inner diameter because they will not expand with water cooling, and now we are back to the space constrictions.

One other way to possibly stop cracking would be to increase the thickness of tubing and while the increased thickness will probably make the tubular design the same inner diameter as a OEM header, the exhaust flow out if each cylinder would be made equal length thus improving flow characteristics.

As far as the OEM headers go the only thing I dont like is they are not equal length, and most turbo charged cars do not need equal length due to the charged intake side firing its way through, however the fact that the OEM headers are not equal and the shorter length pipes actually spit out exhaust fumes and they hit a wall so to speak and then turn towards the exhaust outlet is in my opinion not optimized for exhaust flow and inherently slows the flow down compared to a tubular design.

So its a catch 22

Nice info