Warm start rattle solved on my car!

[mistral cytz]

Those plastic knobs are not needed anymore, throw them away and you should definitely plug your intake ports with clean shop towels to minimize any sand or stuff falling inside. I used some carb cleaner and a tooth brush to clean up some of the buildup but didn't go too crazy.

[SlickFix]

Those plastic knobs are not needed anymore, throw them away and you should definitely plug your intake ports with clean shop towels to minimize any sand or stuff falling inside. I used some carb cleaner and a tooth brush to clean up some of the buildup but didn't go too crazy.

Thank you, mistral cytz. I stuffed a nitrile glove in each port to keep the crud out while I cleaned up. Holy cow, it takes a long time to do a good job of cleaning under the IM. I spent at least 6 hours just cleaning using carb cleaner, Simple Green, a toothbrush and rags. I'm still not quite done cleaning before I remove the old valley pan, but almost. Unplugging all the knock sensors and the vacuum lines from in front of the IM was a definite PITA just to get the IM off. This is one of the most tedious jobs I've done on my B6s. It ranks right up there with replacing the crankcase breather hoses on my 3.0 B6 A4 Avant.

[mistral cytz]

Thank you, mistral cytz. I stuffed a nitrile glove in each port to keep the crud out while I cleaned up. Holy cow, it takes a long time to do a good job of cleaning under the IM. I spent at least 6 hours just cleaning using carb cleaner, Simple Green, a toothbrush and rags. I'm still not quite done cleaning before I remove the old valley pan, but almost. Unplugging all the knock sensors and the vacuum lines from in front of the IM was a definite PITA just to get the IM off. This is one of the most tedious jobs I've done on my B6s. It ranks right up there with replacing the crankcase breather hoses on my 3.0 B6 A4 Avant.

I agree, a very long and tedious task. If you were to drop the car off at a shop and say replace the check valves, oil jet and valley pan, they would probably charge 3 hours labour and get the job done quick and dirty.

But if you want to clean and do a good job like we did prepare to spend an entire day doing this job. I started during a Saturday afternoon by removing the manifold and started on some cleaning, then woke up fresh the next morning to clean and take my time for most of the day. As others have mentioned, the cleaning takes most of the time and it's all up to you how much you want to do.

[blackedoutt]

Just wanted to weigh in with my experience on changing gaskets for the people that are leaving the oil filter housing attached to the valley pan cover.

I replaced both the oring and the double D for the oil filter housing in addition to the valley pan gasket and my "oil consumption" (read leaks) has dropped significantly. 1000 miles later and no noticable change in oil level where I was previously losing around 1 qt/3000 miles. My valley pan gasket looked good, but oil filter orings looked very compression set, and for the couple bucks and three bolts while you're in there you really can't complain.

[pagrosse]

Just wanted to weigh in with my experience on changing gaskets for the people that are leaving the oil filter housing attached to the valley pan cover.

I replaced both the oring and the double D for the oil filter housing in addition to the valley pan gasket and my "oil consumption" (read leaks) has dropped significantly. 1000 miles later and no noticable change in oil level where I was previously losing around 1 qt/3000 miles. My valley pan gasket looked good, but oil filter orings looked very compression set, and for the couple bucks and three bolts while you're in there you really can't complain.

Yeah, I ended up removing the oil filter housing and replacing the double D o-ring (wouldn't it be better to call it a B o-ring??) since I was in there.

[GOR720]

Did this job and it still rattles, about a year and half ago the chain and tensioner job was done and it still rattled thats the reason I did this one, also I changed oil from 5w-30 to 0w-40 mobil 1 European car blend and no difference

[jbmark33]

Update: Oil was changed on Wednesday and my chain rattle is entirely gone. It was almost exactly 5,000 miles since my last oil change (Nov. 23, 2013). I suppose that my oil check valves and oil jet replacement was inconclusive. I will say that I am extremely happy, but didn't realize how picky the 4.2 is with oil change intervals. I suppose it's off to do some searching in the B7 section on oil change intervals, maybe I will keep it closer to 3,000 miles now?

[Priest]

What oil?

[jbmark33]

What oil?

I am reluctant to tell you that the local Audi Dealership changed my oil. My wife and I just bought a house, so we have been slammed for time.. i let them change the oil while it was in for inspection.

I looked on my receipt, but it doesn't say specifically what type.

[SlickFix]

Well, finally done with this job. I ended up having to put it into service position in order to get those damn knock sensor mounts screwed back into the block. What a pain in the ass that was!

Upon inspection, my old oil valves and jet appeared to be fine, and were not stuck open. I replaced the oil filter o-rings, too. The old ones also appeared to be fine. So I reassembled everything with the new parts in it, thinking that I went through a lot of work for nothing.

My totally unscientific results after two starts is promising, however. Absolutely no chain rattle. Not even a 1 second rattle. Before this job, my cold start rattle was about 2-3 seconds. Only time will tell if this is solved for good, however. I think I'm also dealing with a plugged, or partially plugged pre-cat on the driver's side, so I'm not going to start driving her around town until I get that resolved. It's piggies time.

[0396]

Guys,
The more I read about these concerns, one thing in common component is changing "oil" and the possibility of clogged oil injectors / plugs below the I M.
Where I'm I going with this....on my 2004 S/4 with 78k. The only thing different that I do differently is to add two ( some times three ) pints of Swepco Oil a Improver. This product has moly in it and I'm sure a host of other products that are geared to enhance " heavy " machinery like earth movers that operate 24 hrs a day.
The only time my S/4 rattles one bit is - if I don't utilize it for up to a month.
Some might say this is snake oil....if it is, it's worked for my little S/4.
Oh for oil, I use M 0-40.
Enjoy your day / week.

[SprintBlueWorld]

Guys,
The more I read about these concerns, one thing in common component is changing "oil" and the possibility of clogged oil injectors / plugs below the I M.
Where I'm I going with this....on my 2004 S/4 with 78k. The only thing different that I do differently is to add two ( some times three ) pints of Swepco Oil a Improver. This product has moly in it and I'm sure a host of other products that are geared to enhance " heavy " machinery like earth movers that operate 24 hrs a day.
The only time my S/4 rattles one bit is - if I don't utilize it for up to a month.
Some might say this is snake oil....if it is, it's worked for my little S/4.
Oh for oil, I use M 0-40.
Enjoy your day / week.

I agree. I like what ive seen with moly oils and I like what I've heard from moly oil users in the s4. I'm planning to move to lubromoly my next oil change.

[SlickFix]

I agree. I like what ive seen with moly oils and I like what I've heard from moly oil users in the s4. I'm planning to move to lubromoly my next oil change.

Maybe, but I had worse rattle with Liqui-moly 5w40 than I ever had with Mobil One 0w-40.

Btw, after the oil valve and jet job, I ran a VCDS test(Thank you JimmyBones!) on my cats, and they both passed. So, I'm going to replace the original snub mount and call it a day. I'm not fully convinced that my misfire problems are 100% cured, but I'll deal with it when some more codes are thrown.

[SlickFix]

I took the car out of service position today, and started it up and got a little bit of chain rattle. For a split-second immediately on start up, then another one second "slap" about two seconds later. Engine was cold.

I pulled out of the garage to give her a test drive, and then the red low oil pressure light came on. I've never seen the red light on this car before. Did anyone else who did this job get the oil pressure light afterwards?

I parked the car, and it's going to stay there until I figure out what is wrong. I hope it's not chain guide time. I may need to open a new thread to get some help from you guys.

[Slow4]

^^ have you checked your oil level?

Remember when you took the valley pan gasket out AND oil filter housing out, you can lose a good amount of oil.

Run through these set of questions:

Are the check valves firmly pushed in till click or pop?
Is the nozzle firmly in place?
Is the gasket sitting flush and proper?
Are the 16 bolts on valley pan torqued to spec?
Are the knock sensors torqued to spec?
Are the 12 bolts on IM torqued to spec?

That's all I have for now but ya, mental checks and if need be, go back and double check everything.

EDiT:

I went back and re-read your posts.

You did this DIY AND piggies?
Did you start the car in service position after you finished the DIY?

[SlickFix]

^^ have you checked your oil level?

Remember when you took the valley pan gasket out AND oil filter housing out, you can lose a good amount of oil.

Run through these set of questions:

Are the check valves firmly pushed in till click or pop?
Is the nozzle firmly in place?
Is the gasket sitting flush and proper?
Are the 16 bolts on valley pan torqued to spec?
Are the knock sensors torqued to spec?
Are the 12 bolts on IM torqued to spec?

That's all I have for now but ya, mental checks and if need be, go back and double check everything.

EDiT:

I went back and re-read your posts.

You did this DIY AND piggies?
Did you start the car in service position after you finished the DIY?

Thanks for the reply and the questions, Slow4.

Oil level is full, I had to add about 1/2 qt. after the job. The answers to your other questions are "yes", but the logical explanation is that I didn't get the valves or oil jet pushed in far enough. But, I do remember distinctly making sure that I pushed them down firmly until they wouldn't go anymore. The frustrating thing about this, is that I had another "reduced power and misfires on multiple cylinders" just before I performed this job. So now, I don't know if the light is related the the misfires & reduced power, or the oil valve job.

I did not do piggies yet, because after the oil valve job, I started the engine, warmed it up, then performed the catalyst check on both cats within VCDS. Both passed. Incidentally, when I first fired up the engine after the job, while it was still in service position, the oil pressure light came on for maybe two seconds, then went off. But after reassembly and rolling out for the test drive, the light came on and stayed on. I decided the smart thing to do was to park it and not ignore it.

Could a plugged pre-cat still allow a cat test in VCDS to pass? I've got the whole next week off from work, so I've got some time to really try to figure this out. Here's my game plan as of now:

- Recheck the oil valve job.
- Check the oil pressure with my HF oil pressure gauge.
- Perform a compression test(I hope there is a DIY on how to do this, as I've no clue).

The engine is down on power, and runs normally, except that it's louder than normal when under acceleration. No codes as of now, but then again I cleared them right before the oil valve job, and probably have less than a 1/4 mile on the engine since then.

Does my plan sound good to you?

[Slow4]

Could a plugged pre-cat still allow a cat test in VCDS to pass? I've got the whole next week off from work, so I've got some time to really try to figure this out. Here's my game plan as of now:

- Recheck the oil valve job.
- Check the oil pressure with my HF oil pressure gauge.
- Perform a compression test(I hope there is a DIY on how to do this, as I've no clue).

Does my plan sound good to you?

Yup, a solid and cheap plan of attack.

I personally think it might be your check valves or nozzle jet; pop them out, make sure they are functioning and put them back in until they are flush then put everything back in to place.

** make sure the valley pan gasket is the way it's suppose to be
** make sure the oil filter housing gaskets are in place and not slightly off
** torque ALL the bolts in the area to spec (you do have a torque-wrench correct? If not, Advance Auto, Autozone, Sears, Harbor Freight, etc could loan you a tool): valley pan bolts, three? oil filter housing bolts, knock sensor bolts, IM bolts

** Make sure your fuel rail and injectors are sitting correctly
** make sure your injectors have their pintle caps and o-rings sitting squat (seriously don't think this would cause an oil pressure drop but never know)
** make sure your IM is sitting proper before torquing everything down to spec
** do you have intake spacers? If yes, make sure they sit properly (again, don't think this would cause oil pressure to drop but I'll prevent future vacuum leaks).

As for a DIY compression check, no clue man. I've never done one but I have seen how a pressurized Leakdown test works; JimmyBones walked me through the process when he did it to my Avant.

Good luck man.

[Squatteee]

Oil check valves, oil jet, etc plus pcv and jhm intake spacers all installed last wed (thx AUtuning!). Just keeping an ear on things. So far still intermittent cold start noise for no more than a couple seconds. Warm start noise was intermittent before the install and less than a second but have heard it a few times after install. Tho it's more muffled. Will see how it goes. But I have over 175k miles now. Just hoping to get another 25k miles before I send it in for full timing chain service.

Btw the replaced check valves were not stuck in any position tho the spring action was way looser than new ones.

[rixonichard]

Oil check valves, oil jet, etc plus pcv and jhm intake spacers all installed last wed (thx AUtuning!). Just keeping an ear on things. So far still intermittent cold start noise for no more than a couple seconds. Warm start noise was intermittent before the install and less than a second but have heard it a few times after install. Tho it's more muffled. Will see how it goes. But I have over 175k miles now. Just hoping to get another 25k miles before I send it in for full timing chain service.

Btw the replaced check valves were not stuck in any position tho the spring action was way looser than new ones.

Are you still on your original timing components? If so, how long ago did your rattle start? I'm at 110k on original timing components and have no chain rattle. I'd love to hear that you're still on original timing.

[0396]

Oil check valves, oil jet, etc plus pcv and jhm intake spacers all installed last wed (thx AUtuning!). Just keeping an ear on things. So far still intermittent cold start noise for no more than a couple seconds. Warm start noise was intermittent before the install and less than a second but have heard it a few times after install. Tho it's more muffled. Will see how it goes. But I have over 175k miles now. Just hoping to get another 25k miles before I send it in for full timing chain service.

Btw the replaced check valves were not stuck in any position tho the spring action was way looser than new ones.

Great to hear. .175 K and still going. There's hope!

[Squatteee]

rixonichard and 0396, actually am on original timing components. thought the stealership replaced some components around 100k when i was experiencing oil leaks and intermittent cold start noise but they only fixed the oil leaks and the cold start noise disappeared completely. so i just assumed the noise was likely from oil loss and possible low compression from the oil loss. started hearing cold start noise for a couple seconds on cold start last year right after a new to me shop performed oil service and put in lubromoly. my bad because i forgot to tell them i always used Mobil 1. but i really can't say that the diff oil caused the noise because when i went immediately back to mobil oil on the next service the cold start noise still occurred. plus i do have alot of miles now and expect the timing components to be wearing out. AUTuning started working on my car last year and quite a few months ago performed a tune up and oil service (castrol full synth 5w40). since then my s4 has been running very nicely. i still have intermittent cold start noise and intermittent warm start noise. tho warm start noise is much less frequent than cold start and when it does occur is quite faint and less than a second.

this is just my 154kish mile experience to date. bought it from a friend when it had 21k. i think i have been lucky so far but am expecting the sell-or-fix-timing-components-decision to arise.

[BCsniper]

this is just my 154kish mile experience to date. bought it from a friend when it had 21k.

so wait........you have owned and driven your S4 for just over 130k miles so far?


jeesh, I thought I had a lot at ~65k miles in a couple B6 S4's

[Squatteee]

so wait........you have owned and driven your S4 for just over 130k miles so far?

jeesh, I thought I had a lot at ~65k miles in a couple B6 S4's

drove over 154k miles so far. got it with 21k miles. have about 176k miles on it now.

[IslandHydro]

drove over 154k miles so far. got it with 21k miles. have about 176k miles on it now.

_______

[Squatteee]

_______

not deserved... definitely experienced some not so minor issues over the years. can't forget all the auto transmission issues and eventual replacement hassles.

[Mr. Corey]

Did this over the weekend as a preventative along with IM spacers and JHM Mani cars running solid both valves seems to be working fine but reassurance is nice.

[SpoolBus]

not deserved... definitely experienced some not so minor issues over the years. can't forget all the auto transmission issues and eventual replacement hassles.

At what mileage did the tip fail?

[Squatteee]

At what mileage did the tip fail?

complete failure right around 100k

[nr103]

complete failure right around 100k

Was the trans fluid ever serviced previous to this out of curiosity?

[Squatteee]

Was the trans fluid ever serviced previous to this out of curiosity?

yep. had it serviced multiple times before it seized. was experiencing intermittent slippage in 2nd gear which a fluid change seemed to resolve around 60k. fluid level was normal at that time. then developed a hard shift and downshift in 3rd gear and the yellow triangle warning light for traction control lit up. turned out i was leaking fluid so level was low. surprising the hardshifting went away after gasket fix/fluid refill. i figured a syncro or teeth must be busted.

[mistral cytz]

My rattle is back!! I hate to be writing this, but since I replaced all the parts mentioned by the OP of this thread almost 2 months ago I haven't heard any rattle until today...

I changed out the oil with fresh Motul 5W-40 less than 500 miles ago as well. Cold start rattle has still been gone but it is summer so time will tell during the colder months if that will come back?? However, the warm start rattle is definitely back and my car only has 50k miles on it. I did notice that when I first got the warm start rattle my car was parked nose down on a hill and so throughout the day I experimented by repeatedly parking on the upside of a hill with the nose of the car elevated. I repeated this about 4 times with a 5-10 minute shut down and each time I started, I got no rattle while the 2 out of the 3 starts after shutdowns with the car facing down hill (nose of the car lowered) I had the rattle.

Either way, I'm pretty disappointed that the warm rattle is back after doing this job since it's only been 2 months but has anyone confirmed that the rattle seems to happen more often or only when the car is parked down hill?

After reading over the months that many people have start up rattle warm and cold for years and even into pretty high mileage, plus some have even had a full timing service including the tensioners and adjusters replaced and still continued to get the rattle. I just have decided that I'm not going to worry about it anymore. The rattle only happens on warm start up but I'm sure the cold start will return this winter. With my car only having 50k miles the rattle is pretty mild compared to most youtube videos I have listened to.

Hope others have longer rattle freedom than I have

[Squatteee]

My rattle is back!! I hate to be writing this, but since I replaced all the parts mentioned by the OP of this thread almost 2 months ago I haven't heard any rattle until today...

sorry to hear this. kinda crazy that you are getting warm start and not cold noises. did you replace the pcv also?

you have the right idea though. just drive the frickin car!

[SpoolBus]

that the rattle seems to happen more often or only when the car is parked down hill?

My parking is downhill and I've noticed no difference in the cold (winter months) rattle either way (even though I did the same experiment )
I don't have warm rattle yet but maybe I'll be able to chime in soon!

[Concavitor]

You have mad mechanic skills. Bravo! I am jealous, but happy for you.

[mistral cytz]

PCV valve is fresh in my car and so is the oil. Has anyone used any engine oil treatment stabilizer to successfully silent startup rattle? I've never used anything like it but noticed that Liqui Molly makes it and have thought about giving it a try even though I believe the owners manual states not to use any.

[lolo22]

PCV valve is fresh in my car and so is the oil. Has anyone used any engine oil treatment stabilizer to successfully silent startup rattle? I've never used anything like it but noticed that Liqui Molly makes it and have thought about giving it a try even though I believe the owners manual states not to use any.

I would like info myself on this ?

[S4Bennett]

I just started the job this morning. Took about 40 mins to remove the manifold. Somebody had already bypassed the coolant line so I didn't have deal with that typical part of the job.

I haven't looked at the oil system schematics but given there's only one IN/OUT on the filter housing, my guess is that my check valve is just fine given how much oil spilled out when I removed the filter housing.

This is after I cleaned up the spill. The oil was to the brim.


Planning my next move to decide how much I want to get into porting the throttle body housing, removing a cylinder head for valve stem seals, or install a JHM manifold.

[crc]

Hi all,

I'd like to post my progress update with the check valve replacement in my 05 B6 S4.

I originally put together the parts list that has been quoted multiple times here, and one forum member (can't remember who, sorry) indicated that these parts aren't required:

1 x Oil filter housing O ring (double D)
1 x Oil filter housing O ring (single O)

You do NOT need these if you are doing check valves only. The reason I included them in the original parts list is that I had a significant oil leak in to the valley pan that was dripping down the front of the motor (my valley pan gasket was cracked significantly). I did them on precaution only, but this being said there was a slight leak from the double ring. Cleaned the surface on reinstallation and I have no oil leaks any more (apart from the sump, but that is another story - I actually also replaced the oil cooler O rings to stop another leak).

I have a little disappointing news, and that is that my car is now showing ~0.5 sec of rattle on start up (apparently within Audi spec... ha). According to the V8 study guides, there are check valves upstream of the chain tensioners (the ones that we are all replacing here) but there are also some others that I am trying to track down: one in the oil filter housing (???) and one upstream of the oil pump. I think I have found the one upstream of the oil pump, it is part 44 here. I'm trying to determine where this valve is - I suspect it may be accessible with the sump off, but I can't be sure. If this valve was gone it would have an equal affect as one of the top valves being stuck open.

I'm looking to the community now - especially those who have stripped down these motors in full - to help as to where this valve is? It seems to be the main one way delivery valve after the oil pump.

Thanks all for doing all the work here, and hopefully we'll continue to make progress.

crc

[mistral cytz]

Hi all,

I'd like to post my progress update with the check valve replacement in my 05 B6 S4.

I originally put together the parts list that has been quoted multiple times here, and one forum member (can't remember who, sorry) indicated that these parts aren't required:

1 x Oil filter housing O ring (double D)
1 x Oil filter housing O ring (single O)

You do NOT need these if you are doing check valves only. The reason I included them in the original parts list is that I had a significant oil leak in to the valley pan that was dripping down the front of the motor (my valley pan gasket was cracked significantly). I did them on precaution only, but this being said there was a slight leak from the double ring. Cleaned the surface on reinstallation and I have no oil leaks any more (apart from the sump, but that is another story - I actually also replaced the oil cooler O rings to stop another leak).

I have a little disappointing news, and that is that my car is now showing ~0.5 sec of rattle on start up (apparently within Audi spec... ha). According to the V8 study guides, there are check valves upstream of the chain tensioners (the ones that we are all replacing here) but there are also some others that I am trying to track down: one in the oil filter housing (???) and one upstream of the oil pump. I think I have found the one upstream of the oil pump, it is part 44 here. I'm trying to determine where this valve is - I suspect it may be accessible with the sump off, but I can't be sure. If this valve was gone it would have an equal affect as one of the top valves being stuck open.

I'm looking to the community now - especially those who have stripped down these motors in full - to help as to where this valve is? It seems to be the main one way delivery valve after the oil pump.

Thanks all for doing all the work here, and hopefully we'll continue to make progress.

crc

Thanks for the honest update and my results have been similar to yours. Are you getting the 0.5 second rattle during warm start like me or mainly cold start?

Either way, the start up is a bit quieter and I've still read of a few people that have had the complete timing service done and still get rattle and others who have had start up rattle replaced guides that were not even cracked once the motor was pulled.

Until the rattle gets worse than 1 second or the car starts running rough I will likely just ignore it like many others have.

[thejsando1]

Ok, two short records. One is morning after replace valves and second movie is after work, same day, about 8 hours cooling down the car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_JV...ature=youtu.be
Second:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBEI...ature=youtu.be

mine sounds EXACTLY like this on cold start up...can anyone confirm if this sound is definitely caused by cracked guides? I have no problem replacing the oil check valves, but like Jake said I don't want to be covering up a potential larger issue with cracked guides, etc. Does anyone else have experience with this sound on start up?