Warm start rattle solved on my car!

[badger.]

I'm pretty sure you can re-use the intake manifold gaskets but I'm not 100%.

I called JHM when I did mine and they recommended replacing the gaskets. Spacers are fine to re-use.

[Jake@JHM]

I called JHM when I did mine and they recommended replacing the gaskets. Spacers are fine to re-use.

Yup . They are too cheap to even take the risk.

http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalo...-v8-p-423.html

[combsatl]

Yup . They are too cheap to even take the risk.

http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalo...-v8-p-423.html

Jake - any thoughts on this thread? So far, four have tried. Three said it completely fixed startup rattle but one said it fixed his warm rattle but not the cold.

You guys spend a lot of time with these cars so I was just curious. Thanks!

[Jake@JHM]

Jake - any thoughts on this thread? So far, four have tried. Three said it completely fixed startup rattle but one said it fixed his warm rattle but not the cold.

You guys spend a lot of time with these cars so I was just curious. Thanks!

Well, the reason they make the clacking noise is because the guide has failed. So regardless if the valve masks the noise or not there is still an issue. The noise is telling you that there is an issue so you will want to address it instead of covering it up. Once that guide completely breaks up into little pieces (And they do) your chain will be allowed to flop around violently and can cause engine damage if teeth are skipped.

[combsatl]

I thought the rattle was because oil pressure dropped in the tensioners and they 'slap' against the guides until pressure is built back up. I'm not sure how a small check valve will mask any noise. It's already heard inside/outside the motor, we're not soundproofing it.

Sorry, just confused.

[Jake@JHM]

With the dozens of S4s that we have done timing chains on, a good percentage of them had warm rattle. Once replacing the broken guides (normally in two or more pieces) the rattle was 100% gone.

[jmcS4]

Well, the reason they make the clacking noise is because the guide has failed. So regardless if the valve masks the noise or not there is still an issue. The noise is telling you that there is an issue so you will want to address it instead of covering it up. Once that guide completely breaks up into little pieces (And they do) your chain will be allowed to flop around violently and can cause engine damage if teeth are skipped.

So why do some cars still experience rattle after being serviced?

[Jake@JHM]

So why do some cars still experience rattle after being serviced?

We have yet to have a car that still rattles after doing this service. However, mechanical adjusters that have failed can make a rattling sound, so if they did not replace them because they chose our basic or minimal kit, some noise can still be present.

[SlickFix]

I'm pretty sure you can re-use the intake manifold gaskets but I'm not 100%. Check the IM removal DIY. The spacers are a 'mod' - basically, helps cool the IM (they say up to 50 degrees Fahrenheit) which, in turn, allows for cooler air to be pushed into the engine. I don't ever plan on taking this crap apart again so I figured why the heck not. I'm not a very big 'mod' guy, but this just makes sense.

The pintle caps are these little plastic caps that go over the end of the injectors, covering the O-Rings. The purpose is so that the o-ring doesn't get sucked down into the cylinder. From what I've read, many people crack the pintle caps when removing the fuel rail when doing the intake manifold job. I've got 132k on the clock and figured it was probably not a bad idea to order 8 as mine will almost assuredly be brittle. I want to get the job done in one fell swoop, so to speak.. I don't want to have to run to the stealership for anything.

Thank you, sir. Very informative post. I will be getting the spacers and pintle caps, too. And the IM gaskets.

Unfortunately, I have to postpone this job for a bit. Wifey's Avant just blew the steering rack yesterday.

[combsatl]

Thank you, sir. Very informative post. I will be getting the spacers and pintle caps, too. And the IM gaskets.

Unfortunately, I have to postpone this job for a bit. Wifey's Avant just blew the steering rack yesterday.

Damn man, that sucks. Good luck w/ the wifey's. If you get the JHM Intake Manifold Spacer kit, it comes with new gaskets so there's no need to buy additional ones.

All my stuff is scheduled to arrive on or prior to Friday so I'm all set to dive into this, this weekend. I'm pretty excited. If nothing else, it'll be some decent maintenance, although I hope it corrects my rattle by leaving the timing area pressurized. We'll see what happens :)

[JimmyBones]

Today I did this on R&Cs4's car and the Torx bolts are T30s - not T27s. Please update the first post.

I will let him comment on the rattle that he was hearing.

[R&Cs4]

Today I did this on R&Cs4's car and the Torx bolts are T30s - not T27s. Please update the first post.

I will let him comment on the rattle that he was hearing.

Fine job as always!

So before doing this, I was getting 1/2 second cold rattle after the car sat for >48 hrs. Was also getting warm rattle on occasion after the car was completely to temp, then turned off for 10-30 mins. So far, that warm rattle is completely gone (though its only a small sample size). Can't speak on the cold rattle yet, but I'll update once I find out.

The check valves weren't seized open, but they had a lot of resistance when pushing them in by hand. Compared to the new ones I purchased, it was a very noticeable difference.

[Kookie]

Fine job as always!

So before doing this, I was getting 1/2 second cold rattle after the car sat for >48 hrs. Was also getting warm rattle on occasion after the car was completely to temp, then turned off for 10-30 mins. So far, that warm rattle is completely gone (though its only a small sample size). Can't speak on the cold rattle yet, but I'll update once I find out.

The check valves weren't seized open, but they had a lot of resistance when pushing them in by hand. Compared to the new ones I purchased, it was a very noticeable difference.

So that's 4 out of 5 cases that it solved all of the rattle.. I think JHM should start throwing this into the timing chain kit!

[R&Cs4]

So that's 4 out of 5 cases that it solved all of the rattle.. I think JHM should start throwing this into the timing chain kit!

I don't feel comfortable yet that this has solved all of the rattle, since I've started the car maybe 4 times since this was done. Should have a better idea after the weekend if the warm and cold rattles are completely gone.

[Kookie]

I don't feel comfortable yet that this has solved all of the rattle, since I've started the car maybe 4 times since this was done. Should have a better idea after the weekend if the warm and cold rattles are completely gone.

Fair enough, keep us posted

[bioluminescent]

So that's 4 out of 5 cases that it solved all of the rattle.. I think JHM should start throwing this into the timing chain kit!

And give royalties to p3u & crc

[Kookie]

And give royalties to p3u & crc

...

I think it's safe to say not many entities out there knew about this proposed 'fix' - results seem good so far, and I can almost bet some wheels are turning over at JHM

[Jake@JHM]

No wheels are turning. Like I stated previously in this thread that even though is valve may be failed, the clack is because the guides are broken/cracked and/or your mechanical adjuster is failing. Applying pressure to the broken guide is only going to mask the sound of an issue that could lead to engine fatality. Every time we have a customers car in here for timing chain jobs with warm start rattle, replacing the broken guide with the new updated guides and new adjusters have solved the issue.

[bioluminescent]

No wheels are turning. Like I stated previously in this thread that even though is valve may be failed, the clack is because the guides are broken/cracked and/or your mechanical adjuster is failing. Applying pressure to the broken guide is only going to mask the sound of an issue that could lead to engine fatality. Every time we have a customers car in here for timing chain jobs with warm start rattle, replacing the broken guide with the new updated guides and new adjusters have solved the issue.

I agree with this completely, and won't do this fix until I get the timing service done because I want to be aware if the components are deteriorating more.
But it's entirely logical that these valves is a potential source of timing failure, if not the source. So, if someone does a timing service without replacing these valves, it seems like there's a good chance the real problem was never fixed. It makes a lot sense to do this job while doing the timing service, or before you get any rattle.

[combsatl]

No wheels are turning. Like I stated previously in this thread that even though is valve may be failed, the clack is because the guides are broken/cracked and/or your mechanical adjuster is failing. Applying pressure to the broken guide is only going to mask the sound of an issue that could lead to engine fatality. Every time we have a customers car in here for timing chain jobs with warm start rattle, replacing the broken guide with the new updated guides and new adjusters have solved the issue.

I'm by no means an expert on B6/B7 S4's, but my 2004 S4 has 132k and it's rattled for the past 50k. I find it very difficult to believe that a broken guide would last for 50k and still show only beginning signs of issues (only a cold start rattle). It's not that I don't believe you - you guys have vastly more experience with this - but, more-so, for so long it's been commonly accepted as "this is a $7k required maintenance if you want your car to last". I find it a little odd that, now, 4 out of 5 people have tried this and it's corrected their issue at hand but isn't even being given a second glance by the experts.

Sorry man, but that really seems fishy to me.

EDIT: Not to mention - if you're replacing all the timing components, and one of those check valves has failed, the customer will be right back in the same place in a bit. The timing system will depressurize, the chains will slap against the guides which will lead to them cracking. Why wouldn't you include that as part of the servicing if they're being shown to fail?

[Denker]

No wheels are turning. Like I stated previously in this thread that even though is valve may be failed, the clack is because the guides are broken/cracked and/or your mechanical adjuster is failing. Applying pressure to the broken guide is only going to mask the sound of an issue that could lead to engine fatality. Every time we have a customers car in here for timing chain jobs with warm start rattle, replacing the broken guide with the new updated guides and new adjusters have solved the issue.

Fixed the issue yes, but perhaps not the cause? I would think that this would now be a recommendation during this service to minimize the chance of reoccurrence down the road. It's such a cheap bit of insurance at the very least along with the labor overlap.

[Kookie]

No wheels are turning. Like I stated previously in this thread that even though is valve may be failed, the clack is because the guides are broken/cracked and/or your mechanical adjuster is failing. Applying pressure to the broken guide is only going to mask the sound of an issue that could lead to engine fatality. Every time we have a customers car in here for timing chain jobs with warm start rattle, replacing the broken guide with the new updated guides and new adjusters have solved the issue.

I would say it's a combination of both Jake.

The adjusters do fail due to wear, and cause slop in the chain tension.. but there are hydraulic components that require the oil that these check valves store. If they are seeping, or leaking and allow the oil from the heads to join the general population of oil in the engine, they're effectively accelerating the rate of wear in the adjusters as well as aiding in cracking the guides.

I'm not discounting what you're saying, but I do think that these are PART of the timing chain issue and should be part of the kit. They're inexpensive(comparatively speaking), and with minimal labor during timing chain kit install....it wouldn't make sense to leave them while in there.

[Kookie]

Fixed the issue yes, but perhaps not the cause? I would think that this would now be a recommendation during this service to minimize the chance of reoccurrence down the road. It's such a cheap bit of insurance at the very least along with the labor overlap.

What he said

[dolphin B6 S4]

No wheels are turning. Like I stated previously in this thread that even though is valve may be failed, the clack is because the guides are broken/cracked and/or your mechanical adjuster is failing. Applying pressure to the broken guide is only going to mask the sound of an issue that could lead to engine fatality. Every time we have a customers car in here for timing chain jobs with warm start rattle, replacing the broken guide with the new updated guides and new adjusters have solved the issue.

In that case I have a brand new broken guide or a failing adjuster, right? I really hope not, may as well update this.. I had a couple (2-3) small incidents of cold start and warm start rattle BEFORE I changed my oil, and that was out of maybe 15-20 starts. I still had the oil that our dealership uses in the volkswagens in my car which is castrol(?) 5w30. Now there is fresh lubro moly in it and start ups are still quiet. I think it was probably a combination of those weak check valves + watery oil that was causing my rattle.

[rixonichard]

No wheels are turning. Like I stated previously in this thread that even though is valve may be failed, the clack is because the guides are broken/cracked and/or your mechanical adjuster is failing. Applying pressure to the broken guide is only going to mask the sound of an issue that could lead to engine fatality. Every time we have a customers car in here for timing chain jobs with warm start rattle, replacing the broken guide with the new updated guides and new adjusters have solved the issue.

Have you ever taken apart an engine that rattled and not found broken guides? If not that would lend weight to your theory that every engine that rattles has broken guides. However, it is possible that there are cars out there that rattle with guides intact. The chicken and egg question is whether the rattle causes broken guides, or if the broken guides cause the rattle. Since it is impossible to know if the guides were in good shape when the rattle started, the only way to get an answer to the question is to find someone who had chain rattle without broken guides.

[BCsniper]

I'm not discounting what you're saying, but I do think that these are PART of the timing chain issue and should be part of the kit.

This is how I see it. I am not going to say that any one part of the system is the cause of all the timing problems that happen with the V8 S4's. I do think that all of these things add into why we have problems, so to leave any one item out would seem to be a mistake.

You guys remember this, right?

By the way, I was looking through my Bentley Software for more information about these valves and I saw it mentioned: "Note: If irregular valve noise occurs repeatedly during short journeys and disappears after extended driving, the oil check valves must be replaced."

So it looks like Audi knew all along about this issue but nobody apparently went searching through the factory repair manual information to find this stuff out.

If Audi came out to officially say that this is a problem then I would say that it is something that might want to be addressed.

[IslandHydro]

For those of us with highly intermittent rattle, some sort of occasionally sticking component must be to blame, whether that be an adjuster or a check valve. I don't see how a broken guide could result in this type of intermittent behavior. And, as a followup to this, you have to wonder how many broken guides are CAUSED by the stuck component allowing the chain to slap around during those moments of slackness. Or for that matter, how many adjusters are worn prematurely by check valves not keeping tension on the chain? Given how cheap it is to change out these check valves, seems only sensible that one would try this first. It would be really interesting to find out how many people who have experienced timing chain failures started out with highly intermittent symptoms.

[EvoRam]

I am going to order these up for my next oil change service and do JHM spacers while Im in there. Im def interested to see the difference it will make in my car. I get cold start rattle most of the time. I get the occasional warm start rattle, but they are few and far between and have been less frequent since I switched to Mobil 0w40.

[SlickFix]

I get cold start rattle most of the time. I get the occasional warm start rattle, but they are few and far between and have been less frequent since I switched to Mobil 0w40.

This is exactly my situation, too. I rarely get a warm rattle. In fact I can only remember two or three in the three years I've had my car. But I get a cold rattle almost every startup in the morning. I use Mobil One 0w40, too.

[Kookie]

This is exactly my situation, too. I rarely get a warm rattle. In fact I can only remember two or three in the three years I've had my car. But I get a cold rattle almost every startup in the morning. I use Mobil One 0w40, too.

So that would be inconsistent with guides being broken to cause rattle.. the point I was trying to make. The guides aren't kinda broken when cold, and magically repair themselves when warm ;) It sounds like you have oil seeping slowly out of the heads through the check valves as the car cools and replacing them could get rid of the rattle. If I were you, I'd replace them to see if it solves the issue and prevents the chain from slapping into those guides any more than it needs to!

Thanks for posting Slick!

[Kookie]

I'm going to do mine just as a preventative measure since I'll be throwing on a JHM intake manifold next month. I'll report my findings as well.

[EvoRam]

I'm going to do mine just as a preventative measure since I'll be throwing on a JHM intake manifold next month. I'll report my findings as well.

Kookie, maybe I missed it, but do you have any chain rattle at all?

[Kookie]

Kookie, maybe I missed it, but do you have any chain rattle at all?

I do not get it very often. Only twice since getting the car back with a new long block, but the block came BARE.. I mean BARE.. we swapped a lot of components over with some exceptions. The timing chain assembly was brand new OEM.

[Jake@JHM]

Hey Guys,

So far EVERY timing chain job we have done on cars with 80K+ miles have had damaged guides and we have seen these guides be cracked as little as 45K miles. Driving too long damaged guides will eventually cause severe damage to you engine because the guides will continue to break down until they are in little bits and pieces, which we have seen before and it is not pretty.

We have been aware of these valves for several years and we have seen this issue here before with a valve being stuck open. However, it was only once on a very high mileage engine we purchased for R&D a few years ago. Since the first time we saw this issue, we have been inspecting the valves with every local chain job that we perform (3-4 a month) as well as every engine that we acquire for R&D. Since that high mileage engine a few years ago we have not seen another case of the valve stuck open. That being said this valve hasn't occurred as a major pattern or issue, or at least on all of the engines we get our hands on for chain jobs.

This is why we love the Audizine and the online community in general. It helps us see more cars than what comes in our door and who calls us. We’ll continue to watch this thread and the forum in general and as the cars continue to get older we might find that this happens more.

In addition, since this thread has popped up we have had a lot of inquiries about this valve, so we are in the process of putting together a valve kit for those of you who want to replace it.

Jake

[auxnbus]

In addition, since this thread has popped up we have had a lot of inquiries about this valve, so we are in the process of putting together a valve kit for those of you who want to replace it.

Jake

Now that's customer service (and smart business)! I'm interested to see the long term effectiveness of this check valve job- great to hear people having positive experience.
However, I tend to trust the experts here, so I want to make sure I am understanding this correctly, Jake.. This 'fix' should not be in lieu of timing service, rather something that should maybe be done at the same time? And it is possibly effective in postponing catastrophic failure if timing service isn't done..? Or is this just masking the symptoms?

[R&Cs4]

Hey Guys,

So far EVERY timing chain job we have done on cars with 80K+ miles have had damaged guides and we have seen these guides be cracked as little as 45K miles. Driving too long damaged guides will eventually cause severe damage to you engine because the guides will continue to break down until they are in little bits and pieces, which we have seen before and it is not pretty.

We have been aware of these valves for several years and we have seen this issue here before with a valve being stuck open. However, it was only once on a very high mileage engine we purchased for R&D a few years ago. Since the first time we saw this issue, we have been inspecting the valves with every local chain job that we perform (3-4 a month) as well as every engine that we acquire for R&D. Since that high mileage engine a few years ago we have not seen another case of the valve stuck open. That being said this valve hasn't occurred as a major pattern or issue, or at least on all of the engines we get our hands on for chain jobs.

This is why we love the Audizine and the online community in general. It helps us see more cars than what comes in our door and who calls us. We’ll continue to watch this thread and the forum in general and as the cars continue to get older we might find that this happens more.

In addition, since this thread has popped up we have had a lot of inquiries about this valve, so we are in the process of putting together a valve kit for those of you who want to replace it.

Jake

Correct me if I'm wrong, but just because the valve isn't stuck open when you pull it out doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't failing intermittently? We pulled mine out the other day and while they weren't stuck open, there was definitely significant resistance to pushing them open with your finger compared to the new ones we put in. Also, I'm assuming you pulled the valves out after the engine oil had cooled down, meaning that the valves potentially had time to close slowly if not right away as designed.

[Jake@JHM]

Now that's customer service (and smart business)! I'm interested to see the long term effectiveness of this check valve job- great to hear people having positive experience.
However, I tend to trust the experts here, so I want to make sure I am understanding this correctly, Jake.. This 'fix' should not be in lieu of timing service, rather something that should maybe be done at the same time? And it is possibly effective in postponing catastrophic failure if timing service isn't done..? Or is this just masking the symptoms?

Thanks!

Since we have not seen the connection between failed valves and broken guides, I would say based on our experience that replacing the valve is not going to prevent your guides from failing. Additionally since every car above 80k miles has broken guides (based on the dozens we have done the job on) replacing the guides with a timing chain kit is going to be highly recommended over just replacing the valve to try and get rid of the noise. I don't see an issue with replacing them at the same time though, since you are already tearing into your engine!

Jake

[Baggio]

Thanks!

Since we have not seen the connection between failed valves and broken guides, I would say based on our experience that replacing the valve is not going to prevent your guides from failing. Additionally since every car above 80k miles has broken guides (based on the dozens we have done the job on) replacing the guides with a timing chain kit is going to be highly recommended over just replacing the valve to try and get rid of the noise. I don't see an issue with replacing them at the same time though, since you are already tearing into your engine!

Jake

When you say every car above 80K has broken guides, do you mean the ones that exhibit warm start chain rattle, consistent cold start chain rattle, or the combination of both? Or do you mean any car with 80K or more on the odometer?

[SliverJay]

In addition, since this thread has popped up we have had a lot of inquiries about this valve, so we are in the process of putting together a valve kit for those of you who want to replace it.

Jake

Glad I just checked this thread! Should be a intake spacers, valve kit and MAF all in one.

[Kookie]

My car had over 80k when replacing the long block.

-Guides intact(you can verify when Dru works out how to get my block to you Jake )
-Rattled warm & cold
-Adjusters didn't seem overly worn


Jake - How is there NOT a connection?

Check valves trap oil in heads>Allows adjusters to pressurize immediately>guides don't get bitch slapped by chain..

Verified with Audi, there were new check valves in my long block.