Warm start rattle solved on my car!

[mistral cytz]

All,

I finally got my parts in (took 2.5wks from Bullstuff) and began the work. The disassembly went well ran into a few issues and made a few notes for others:

1. The T30 bolts on the valley pan nearly stripped. I noticed that grit and rust filled part of the head not allowing the T30 socket to be fully seated. I made sure to clean all the heads and pick out the grit.
2. You do not have to take off the oil filter housing from the valley pan (so I didn't need those O-rings.)
3. Clean as much as you can before removing the manifold as inevitably tiny amounts of grit/gasket pieces will fall into the intake. Since 6 or 7 of cylinders intake valves will be closed, you can suck the debris out with a shopvac
4. Quite a bit of oil comes out when the valley pan is removed, I'd say a good 1/2qt which drains down the engine. Anyway of purging this oil so it doesn't leak down the engine? I guess you can take out the oil filter and suck out some of the oil.
5. I found some RTV gasket material was lodged in one of the check valves! I do know the engine was rebuilt at ~12k from a dropped valve so I'm guessing this has been there ever since (now at 90k)

Still need to reassemble as I also found out the previous owner removed the intake manifold runner flaps! No wonder I don't have low RPM torque! I"m finding all sorts of hack jobs on this car but they are getting corrected...

When removing the valley pan bolts I cleaned as much of the bolt as possible and still had to lightly tap the torx bit with a hammer to get it fully seated in the bolt since I nearly stripped two.

As far as the oil seepage once the valley pan comes off, removing the oil filter which is obviously full of oil should greatly help with the oil spilling. I pulled out the saturated filter and put it into a plastic bag but still had to use a ton of shop towels to mop up the oil. Doing this job when the oil is stone cold should definitely help since most of the oil will be drained down to lower areas of the engine.

This job can be done without removing the oil filter housing but since the rubber gaskets under the housing tend to crack and leak over time I changed them out while I was in there.

[Squatteee]

How's the noise y'all that have replaced these valves?

Received all of the parts and will have my local do the installation including intake spacers and PCV. My ride has over 175k miles. A bit over a year ago started having bad cold start noise after an indy changed my oil with lubromoly. Always used Mobil 0w40. Then it became intermittent after I quickly changed back to mobil then now mostly occurs for couple of seconds. A few months ago the occasional warm start noise appeared then mostly went away when I changed to Castrol Edge Full synth 5w40. So I just wanna try these oil check valves out before I sign up for full timing chain service. Can't find my receipts nor records on what was serviced timing chain-wise at 100k miles. And no good records at my former mechanic but assured me the tensioners and guides were replaced.

[ZenkaiRacerS4]

Well mine still makes a noise at start up all the time after these have been replaced. But the noise is now reduced to the point where I am questioning whether or not it's the chain/adjuster rattle at all.

[SlickFix]

My parts are arriving tomorrow or Saturday. I hope to do this job on Sunday, and am really hopeful this will help with the rattle.

[SlickFix]

Guys,

I found two of these under the IM. What are they, and where do they live?






Also, I've got carbon buildup inside the intake ports(I think that's what they're called). Do I attempt to clean this up? If so, how do I prevent crud falling down into the combustion chamber, or whatever the name is of the place where I can see the valves?

[B5man17]

They are used for lining up the intake manifold.

[blackedoutt]

Go back a few pages, all your answers are here.

[bigbseehagen]

Awesome

[mistral cytz]

Those plastic knobs are not needed anymore, throw them away and you should definitely plug your intake ports with clean shop towels to minimize any sand or stuff falling inside. I used some carb cleaner and a tooth brush to clean up some of the buildup but didn't go too crazy.

[SlickFix]

Those plastic knobs are not needed anymore, throw them away and you should definitely plug your intake ports with clean shop towels to minimize any sand or stuff falling inside. I used some carb cleaner and a tooth brush to clean up some of the buildup but didn't go too crazy.

Thank you, mistral cytz. I stuffed a nitrile glove in each port to keep the crud out while I cleaned up. Holy cow, it takes a long time to do a good job of cleaning under the IM. I spent at least 6 hours just cleaning using carb cleaner, Simple Green, a toothbrush and rags. I'm still not quite done cleaning before I remove the old valley pan, but almost. Unplugging all the knock sensors and the vacuum lines from in front of the IM was a definite PITA just to get the IM off. This is one of the most tedious jobs I've done on my B6s. It ranks right up there with replacing the crankcase breather hoses on my 3.0 B6 A4 Avant.

[mistral cytz]

Thank you, mistral cytz. I stuffed a nitrile glove in each port to keep the crud out while I cleaned up. Holy cow, it takes a long time to do a good job of cleaning under the IM. I spent at least 6 hours just cleaning using carb cleaner, Simple Green, a toothbrush and rags. I'm still not quite done cleaning before I remove the old valley pan, but almost. Unplugging all the knock sensors and the vacuum lines from in front of the IM was a definite PITA just to get the IM off. This is one of the most tedious jobs I've done on my B6s. It ranks right up there with replacing the crankcase breather hoses on my 3.0 B6 A4 Avant.

I agree, a very long and tedious task. If you were to drop the car off at a shop and say replace the check valves, oil jet and valley pan, they would probably charge 3 hours labour and get the job done quick and dirty.

But if you want to clean and do a good job like we did prepare to spend an entire day doing this job. I started during a Saturday afternoon by removing the manifold and started on some cleaning, then woke up fresh the next morning to clean and take my time for most of the day. As others have mentioned, the cleaning takes most of the time and it's all up to you how much you want to do.

[blackedoutt]

Just wanted to weigh in with my experience on changing gaskets for the people that are leaving the oil filter housing attached to the valley pan cover.

I replaced both the oring and the double D for the oil filter housing in addition to the valley pan gasket and my "oil consumption" (read leaks) has dropped significantly. 1000 miles later and no noticable change in oil level where I was previously losing around 1 qt/3000 miles. My valley pan gasket looked good, but oil filter orings looked very compression set, and for the couple bucks and three bolts while you're in there you really can't complain.

[pagrosse]

Just wanted to weigh in with my experience on changing gaskets for the people that are leaving the oil filter housing attached to the valley pan cover.

I replaced both the oring and the double D for the oil filter housing in addition to the valley pan gasket and my "oil consumption" (read leaks) has dropped significantly. 1000 miles later and no noticable change in oil level where I was previously losing around 1 qt/3000 miles. My valley pan gasket looked good, but oil filter orings looked very compression set, and for the couple bucks and three bolts while you're in there you really can't complain.

Yeah, I ended up removing the oil filter housing and replacing the double D o-ring (wouldn't it be better to call it a B o-ring??) since I was in there.

[GOR720]

Did this job and it still rattles, about a year and half ago the chain and tensioner job was done and it still rattled thats the reason I did this one, also I changed oil from 5w-30 to 0w-40 mobil 1 European car blend and no difference

[jbmark33]

Update: Oil was changed on Wednesday and my chain rattle is entirely gone. It was almost exactly 5,000 miles since my last oil change (Nov. 23, 2013). I suppose that my oil check valves and oil jet replacement was inconclusive. I will say that I am extremely happy, but didn't realize how picky the 4.2 is with oil change intervals. I suppose it's off to do some searching in the B7 section on oil change intervals, maybe I will keep it closer to 3,000 miles now?

[Priest]

What oil?

[jbmark33]

What oil?

I am reluctant to tell you that the local Audi Dealership changed my oil. My wife and I just bought a house, so we have been slammed for time.. i let them change the oil while it was in for inspection.

I looked on my receipt, but it doesn't say specifically what type.

[SlickFix]

Well, finally done with this job. I ended up having to put it into service position in order to get those damn knock sensor mounts screwed back into the block. What a pain in the ass that was!

Upon inspection, my old oil valves and jet appeared to be fine, and were not stuck open. I replaced the oil filter o-rings, too. The old ones also appeared to be fine. So I reassembled everything with the new parts in it, thinking that I went through a lot of work for nothing.

My totally unscientific results after two starts is promising, however. Absolutely no chain rattle. Not even a 1 second rattle. Before this job, my cold start rattle was about 2-3 seconds. Only time will tell if this is solved for good, however. I think I'm also dealing with a plugged, or partially plugged pre-cat on the driver's side, so I'm not going to start driving her around town until I get that resolved. It's piggies time.

[0396]

Guys,
The more I read about these concerns, one thing in common component is changing "oil" and the possibility of clogged oil injectors / plugs below the I M.
Where I'm I going with this....on my 2004 S/4 with 78k. The only thing different that I do differently is to add two ( some times three ) pints of Swepco Oil a Improver. This product has moly in it and I'm sure a host of other products that are geared to enhance " heavy " machinery like earth movers that operate 24 hrs a day.
The only time my S/4 rattles one bit is - if I don't utilize it for up to a month.
Some might say this is snake oil....if it is, it's worked for my little S/4.
Oh for oil, I use M 0-40.
Enjoy your day / week.

[SprintBlueWorld]

Guys,
The more I read about these concerns, one thing in common component is changing "oil" and the possibility of clogged oil injectors / plugs below the I M.
Where I'm I going with this....on my 2004 S/4 with 78k. The only thing different that I do differently is to add two ( some times three ) pints of Swepco Oil a Improver. This product has moly in it and I'm sure a host of other products that are geared to enhance " heavy " machinery like earth movers that operate 24 hrs a day.
The only time my S/4 rattles one bit is - if I don't utilize it for up to a month.
Some might say this is snake oil....if it is, it's worked for my little S/4.
Oh for oil, I use M 0-40.
Enjoy your day / week.

I agree. I like what ive seen with moly oils and I like what I've heard from moly oil users in the s4. I'm planning to move to lubromoly my next oil change.

[SlickFix]

I agree. I like what ive seen with moly oils and I like what I've heard from moly oil users in the s4. I'm planning to move to lubromoly my next oil change.

Maybe, but I had worse rattle with Liqui-moly 5w40 than I ever had with Mobil One 0w-40.

Btw, after the oil valve and jet job, I ran a VCDS test(Thank you JimmyBones!) on my cats, and they both passed. So, I'm going to replace the original snub mount and call it a day. I'm not fully convinced that my misfire problems are 100% cured, but I'll deal with it when some more codes are thrown.

[SlickFix]

I took the car out of service position today, and started it up and got a little bit of chain rattle. For a split-second immediately on start up, then another one second "slap" about two seconds later. Engine was cold.

I pulled out of the garage to give her a test drive, and then the red low oil pressure light came on. I've never seen the red light on this car before. Did anyone else who did this job get the oil pressure light afterwards?

I parked the car, and it's going to stay there until I figure out what is wrong. I hope it's not chain guide time. I may need to open a new thread to get some help from you guys.

[Slow4]

^^ have you checked your oil level?

Remember when you took the valley pan gasket out AND oil filter housing out, you can lose a good amount of oil.

Run through these set of questions:

Are the check valves firmly pushed in till click or pop?
Is the nozzle firmly in place?
Is the gasket sitting flush and proper?
Are the 16 bolts on valley pan torqued to spec?
Are the knock sensors torqued to spec?
Are the 12 bolts on IM torqued to spec?

That's all I have for now but ya, mental checks and if need be, go back and double check everything.

EDiT:

I went back and re-read your posts.

You did this DIY AND piggies?
Did you start the car in service position after you finished the DIY?

[SlickFix]

^^ have you checked your oil level?

Remember when you took the valley pan gasket out AND oil filter housing out, you can lose a good amount of oil.

Run through these set of questions:

Are the check valves firmly pushed in till click or pop?
Is the nozzle firmly in place?
Is the gasket sitting flush and proper?
Are the 16 bolts on valley pan torqued to spec?
Are the knock sensors torqued to spec?
Are the 12 bolts on IM torqued to spec?

That's all I have for now but ya, mental checks and if need be, go back and double check everything.

EDiT:

I went back and re-read your posts.

You did this DIY AND piggies?
Did you start the car in service position after you finished the DIY?

Thanks for the reply and the questions, Slow4.

Oil level is full, I had to add about 1/2 qt. after the job. The answers to your other questions are "yes", but the logical explanation is that I didn't get the valves or oil jet pushed in far enough. But, I do remember distinctly making sure that I pushed them down firmly until they wouldn't go anymore. The frustrating thing about this, is that I had another "reduced power and misfires on multiple cylinders" just before I performed this job. So now, I don't know if the light is related the the misfires & reduced power, or the oil valve job.

I did not do piggies yet, because after the oil valve job, I started the engine, warmed it up, then performed the catalyst check on both cats within VCDS. Both passed. Incidentally, when I first fired up the engine after the job, while it was still in service position, the oil pressure light came on for maybe two seconds, then went off. But after reassembly and rolling out for the test drive, the light came on and stayed on. I decided the smart thing to do was to park it and not ignore it.

Could a plugged pre-cat still allow a cat test in VCDS to pass? I've got the whole next week off from work, so I've got some time to really try to figure this out. Here's my game plan as of now:

- Recheck the oil valve job.
- Check the oil pressure with my HF oil pressure gauge.
- Perform a compression test(I hope there is a DIY on how to do this, as I've no clue).

The engine is down on power, and runs normally, except that it's louder than normal when under acceleration. No codes as of now, but then again I cleared them right before the oil valve job, and probably have less than a 1/4 mile on the engine since then.

Does my plan sound good to you?

[Slow4]

Could a plugged pre-cat still allow a cat test in VCDS to pass? I've got the whole next week off from work, so I've got some time to really try to figure this out. Here's my game plan as of now:

- Recheck the oil valve job.
- Check the oil pressure with my HF oil pressure gauge.
- Perform a compression test(I hope there is a DIY on how to do this, as I've no clue).

Does my plan sound good to you?

Yup, a solid and cheap plan of attack.

I personally think it might be your check valves or nozzle jet; pop them out, make sure they are functioning and put them back in until they are flush then put everything back in to place.

** make sure the valley pan gasket is the way it's suppose to be
** make sure the oil filter housing gaskets are in place and not slightly off
** torque ALL the bolts in the area to spec (you do have a torque-wrench correct? If not, Advance Auto, Autozone, Sears, Harbor Freight, etc could loan you a tool): valley pan bolts, three? oil filter housing bolts, knock sensor bolts, IM bolts

** Make sure your fuel rail and injectors are sitting correctly
** make sure your injectors have their pintle caps and o-rings sitting squat (seriously don't think this would cause an oil pressure drop but never know)
** make sure your IM is sitting proper before torquing everything down to spec
** do you have intake spacers? If yes, make sure they sit properly (again, don't think this would cause oil pressure to drop but I'll prevent future vacuum leaks).

As for a DIY compression check, no clue man. I've never done one but I have seen how a pressurized Leakdown test works; JimmyBones walked me through the process when he did it to my Avant.

Good luck man.

[Squatteee]

Oil check valves, oil jet, etc plus pcv and jhm intake spacers all installed last wed (thx AUtuning!). Just keeping an ear on things. So far still intermittent cold start noise for no more than a couple seconds. Warm start noise was intermittent before the install and less than a second but have heard it a few times after install. Tho it's more muffled. Will see how it goes. But I have over 175k miles now. Just hoping to get another 25k miles before I send it in for full timing chain service.

Btw the replaced check valves were not stuck in any position tho the spring action was way looser than new ones.

[rixonichard]

Oil check valves, oil jet, etc plus pcv and jhm intake spacers all installed last wed (thx AUtuning!). Just keeping an ear on things. So far still intermittent cold start noise for no more than a couple seconds. Warm start noise was intermittent before the install and less than a second but have heard it a few times after install. Tho it's more muffled. Will see how it goes. But I have over 175k miles now. Just hoping to get another 25k miles before I send it in for full timing chain service.

Btw the replaced check valves were not stuck in any position tho the spring action was way looser than new ones.

Are you still on your original timing components? If so, how long ago did your rattle start? I'm at 110k on original timing components and have no chain rattle. I'd love to hear that you're still on original timing.

[Squatteee]

rixonichard and 0396, actually am on original timing components. thought the stealership replaced some components around 100k when i was experiencing oil leaks and intermittent cold start noise but they only fixed the oil leaks and the cold start noise disappeared completely. so i just assumed the noise was likely from oil loss and possible low compression from the oil loss. started hearing cold start noise for a couple seconds on cold start last year right after a new to me shop performed oil service and put in lubromoly. my bad because i forgot to tell them i always used Mobil 1. but i really can't say that the diff oil caused the noise because when i went immediately back to mobil oil on the next service the cold start noise still occurred. plus i do have alot of miles now and expect the timing components to be wearing out. AUTuning started working on my car last year and quite a few months ago performed a tune up and oil service (castrol full synth 5w40). since then my s4 has been running very nicely. i still have intermittent cold start noise and intermittent warm start noise. tho warm start noise is much less frequent than cold start and when it does occur is quite faint and less than a second.

this is just my 154kish mile experience to date. bought it from a friend when it had 21k. i think i have been lucky so far but am expecting the sell-or-fix-timing-components-decision to arise.

[BCsniper]

this is just my 154kish mile experience to date. bought it from a friend when it had 21k.

so wait........you have owned and driven your S4 for just over 130k miles so far?


jeesh, I thought I had a lot at ~65k miles in a couple B6 S4's

[Squatteee]

so wait........you have owned and driven your S4 for just over 130k miles so far?

jeesh, I thought I had a lot at ~65k miles in a couple B6 S4's

drove over 154k miles so far. got it with 21k miles. have about 176k miles on it now.

[0396]

Oil check valves, oil jet, etc plus pcv and jhm intake spacers all installed last wed (thx AUtuning!). Just keeping an ear on things. So far still intermittent cold start noise for no more than a couple seconds. Warm start noise was intermittent before the install and less than a second but have heard it a few times after install. Tho it's more muffled. Will see how it goes. But I have over 175k miles now. Just hoping to get another 25k miles before I send it in for full timing chain service.

Btw the replaced check valves were not stuck in any position tho the spring action was way looser than new ones.

Great to hear. .175 K and still going. There's hope!

[Mr. Corey]

Did this over the weekend as a preventative along with IM spacers and JHM Mani cars running solid both valves seems to be working fine but reassurance is nice.

[Concavitor]

You have mad mechanic skills. Bravo! I am jealous, but happy for you.

[mistral cytz]

PCV valve is fresh in my car and so is the oil. Has anyone used any engine oil treatment stabilizer to successfully silent startup rattle? I've never used anything like it but noticed that Liqui Molly makes it and have thought about giving it a try even though I believe the owners manual states not to use any.

[lolo22]

PCV valve is fresh in my car and so is the oil. Has anyone used any engine oil treatment stabilizer to successfully silent startup rattle? I've never used anything like it but noticed that Liqui Molly makes it and have thought about giving it a try even though I believe the owners manual states not to use any.

I would like info myself on this ?

[S4Bennett]

I just started the job this morning. Took about 40 mins to remove the manifold. Somebody had already bypassed the coolant line so I didn't have deal with that typical part of the job.

I haven't looked at the oil system schematics but given there's only one IN/OUT on the filter housing, my guess is that my check valve is just fine given how much oil spilled out when I removed the filter housing.

This is after I cleaned up the spill. The oil was to the brim.


Planning my next move to decide how much I want to get into porting the throttle body housing, removing a cylinder head for valve stem seals, or install a JHM manifold.

[crc]

Hi all,

I'd like to post my progress update with the check valve replacement in my 05 B6 S4.

I originally put together the parts list that has been quoted multiple times here, and one forum member (can't remember who, sorry) indicated that these parts aren't required:

1 x Oil filter housing O ring (double D)
1 x Oil filter housing O ring (single O)

You do NOT need these if you are doing check valves only. The reason I included them in the original parts list is that I had a significant oil leak in to the valley pan that was dripping down the front of the motor (my valley pan gasket was cracked significantly). I did them on precaution only, but this being said there was a slight leak from the double ring. Cleaned the surface on reinstallation and I have no oil leaks any more (apart from the sump, but that is another story - I actually also replaced the oil cooler O rings to stop another leak).

I have a little disappointing news, and that is that my car is now showing ~0.5 sec of rattle on start up (apparently within Audi spec... ha). According to the V8 study guides, there are check valves upstream of the chain tensioners (the ones that we are all replacing here) but there are also some others that I am trying to track down: one in the oil filter housing (???) and one upstream of the oil pump. I think I have found the one upstream of the oil pump, it is part 44 here. I'm trying to determine where this valve is - I suspect it may be accessible with the sump off, but I can't be sure. If this valve was gone it would have an equal affect as one of the top valves being stuck open.

I'm looking to the community now - especially those who have stripped down these motors in full - to help as to where this valve is? It seems to be the main one way delivery valve after the oil pump.

Thanks all for doing all the work here, and hopefully we'll continue to make progress.

crc

[mistral cytz]

Hi all,

I'd like to post my progress update with the check valve replacement in my 05 B6 S4.

I originally put together the parts list that has been quoted multiple times here, and one forum member (can't remember who, sorry) indicated that these parts aren't required:

1 x Oil filter housing O ring (double D)
1 x Oil filter housing O ring (single O)

You do NOT need these if you are doing check valves only. The reason I included them in the original parts list is that I had a significant oil leak in to the valley pan that was dripping down the front of the motor (my valley pan gasket was cracked significantly). I did them on precaution only, but this being said there was a slight leak from the double ring. Cleaned the surface on reinstallation and I have no oil leaks any more (apart from the sump, but that is another story - I actually also replaced the oil cooler O rings to stop another leak).

I have a little disappointing news, and that is that my car is now showing ~0.5 sec of rattle on start up (apparently within Audi spec... ha). According to the V8 study guides, there are check valves upstream of the chain tensioners (the ones that we are all replacing here) but there are also some others that I am trying to track down: one in the oil filter housing (???) and one upstream of the oil pump. I think I have found the one upstream of the oil pump, it is part 44 here. I'm trying to determine where this valve is - I suspect it may be accessible with the sump off, but I can't be sure. If this valve was gone it would have an equal affect as one of the top valves being stuck open.

I'm looking to the community now - especially those who have stripped down these motors in full - to help as to where this valve is? It seems to be the main one way delivery valve after the oil pump.

Thanks all for doing all the work here, and hopefully we'll continue to make progress.

crc

Thanks for the honest update and my results have been similar to yours. Are you getting the 0.5 second rattle during warm start like me or mainly cold start?

Either way, the start up is a bit quieter and I've still read of a few people that have had the complete timing service done and still get rattle and others who have had start up rattle replaced guides that were not even cracked once the motor was pulled.

Until the rattle gets worse than 1 second or the car starts running rough I will likely just ignore it like many others have.

[SlickFix]

Yes, I get both, and mine last about a second longer for each one. The oil valves and jet replacement haven't seemed to cure either one.

[SprintBlueWorld]

Yes, I get both, and mine last about a second longer for each one. The oil valves and jet replacement haven't seemed to cure either one.

there are other check valves and spray jets throughout the oiling system.iN addition to the one that CRC pointed out in the sump there's a check valve and a spray jet in the head is well part number 4 in the link below.

http://www.jimellisaudiparts.com/sho...chString=valve

It seems to me that if a little bit of broken piece of plastic or grit or debris of some sort can wedge itself between the wall and sprung cylinder of the check valve it can cause it to remain open and drain the oil out of a given section of the motor thus causing trouble. over time the springs lose some of their strength making it easier for debris to gain a purchase in between the two walls.