Tensions in Ukraine!

**Operator** · 03-01-2014 06:09 PM

The old Cold War enemies seem to not be getting along again. And it may be a little too soon, but I can't help but think the past two WW's, and even Desert Storm started after one country invaded another. http://news.yahoo.com/russian-troops...200052097.html

**OverSpun** · 03-02-2014 01:11 AM

Russia has an interesting way to celebrate their Olympic medals by seizing Crimea and Invading Ukraine. If Putin is planning a USSR reunion but he'll be a bit short.

**Operator** · 03-02-2014 03:32 AM

He did the same to Georgia. Really does remind me of Germany occupying multiple countries before the start of WWII. Will things escalate to the same point, I hope not. But Russia is currently doing whatever they want.

**demonmk2** · 03-02-2014 04:12 AM

What's so strange half if not more of the people are welcoming it.

**vajking** · 03-02-2014 04:25 AM

Not that I want to get into politics with Americans, but I will say what I think.

First of all, there are alot of Russians in Ukraine, also alot of pro-russian Ukraine's.
Second, there have their bases there, and as far as I know they have every right to protect them.

I cant really understand how some people can justify occupation of Iraq, Afghanista, Lybia, bombing of Serbia, taking down I dont know how many goverments and in the same time strongly against Russian invasion in Ukraine :)

Again, Im not Pro-Russian or Pro-American but lets face it, its a legit goal they have!

**JBM** · 03-02-2014 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by vajking

Not that I want to get into politics with Americans, but I will say what I think.

First of all, there are alot of Russians in Ukraine, also alot of pro-russian Ukraine's.
Second, there have their bases there, and as far as I know they have every right to protect them.

I cant really understand how some people can justify occupation of Iraq, Afghanista, Lybia, bombing of Serbia, taking down I dont know how many goverments and in the same time strongly against Russian invasion in Ukraine :)

Again, Im not Pro-Russian or Pro-American but lets face it, its a legit goal they have!

Because we are hypocrites...a lot of the issue is that there is a big group of the Uk revolutionaries that are hardcore facists. The media isnt really reporting it bc it would hurt the image.

It is like Libya, remove Gaddafi and replace it with someone less bad, or Egypt, or Syria. The peninsula of Crimea is 90% ethnic Russians as it actually used to be Russia back in the 1950's until Russia gave it to Ukraine. Well after the fall of the USSR a lot of those in the Region were dissatisfied and wanted back to Russia.

While it's surprising its a great move on Russia's part b/c the people there want them, the rest of the world will standby b/c Ukraine is not worth fighting for since there are no economic interests (ie Oil) and while this is a move like that of Germany annex Austria, I don't think we will see Putin move any greater than this.

**Voltrons_Head** · 03-02-2014 05:49 AM

I don't know a single person who wants anything to do with the Ukraine.

**$4c@b** · 03-02-2014 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by Voltrons_Head

I don't know a single person who wants anything to do with the Ukraine.

I'm 1/16th Ukrainian. I didn't even know it was still a country.

Not worth shedding American blood.

**Slow4** · 03-02-2014 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by demonmk2

What's so strange half if not more of the people are welcoming it.

This.

I've been preaching this, America cannot continue to be the World Police/World Manager like in the years past....one day, we're gonna slip up and fuck up then it'll be the citizens that pay, not the politicians.

**JBM** · 03-02-2014 06:24 AM

Exactly, there is a lot more going on in the world than Russia moving in with it's military that it is allowed to due under pacts and agreements that they had with the Ukrainians. That being said, NATO, UN and all those will just Saber rattle...anything that comes out of the WH will be dismissed.

That being said genocides are still being committed in Africa, which no one wants to deal with.

What it comes down to is that Putin is not afraid of anyone, especially President Obama with the empty threats. A lot of people don't know wtf that is going on but just what the media is briefing them.

Outcomes
1) Crimea region is given over to the Russians by the Ukrainians - Most likely
2) Russia moves out, with no shots fired. Also highly probable
3) UN/NATO Europe denounce and move militarily towards Ukraine to stop the "invasion" even though no shots were fired. Eerily like Austria\Germany but rest of Europe bowed over to him.

I hate to say it but on the World stage, I prefer Putin's diplomacy and show of strength than our leader's...

**Slow4** · 03-02-2014 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by JBM

What it comes down to is that Putin is not afraid of anyone, especially President Obama with the empty threats.

Boom, you Sir are correct and that is the scary part.

Putin has never cared about what the West says. He knows Obama's foreign affairs policies are bullshit, his cabinet is full of idiots **cough** John Kerry **cough** and with the current conflicts we've been in, our chest thumping grows weary.

**JBM** · 03-02-2014 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by Slow4

Boom, you Sir are correct and that is the scary part.

Putin has never cared about what the West says. He knows Obama's foreign affairs policies are bullshit, his cabinet is full of idiots **cough** John Kerry **cough** and with the current conflicts we've been in, our chest thumping grows weary.

That is the thing, I have to say as a Foreign Power we have definitely lost ground since '08. I mean when we are represented by John Kerry, Biden, and Hillary, I just cringe at the fact that America did this to ourselves, thank you Adam...

While Putin might not have the best track record internally, externally, he doesn't give a fuck what people think and that is something you need to have when you are a leader in this day and age. I mean look at our politicians, and you can see the difference between Democrats and Republicans on strength of Foreign Policy. I mean I'll be the first to admit Bush had his drawbacks but nothing like what this WH admin is now.

Oh where is he when we need him

**demonmk2** · 03-02-2014 07:28 AM

Awesome picture, when is the movie coming out? Lol

**1997gtx** · 03-02-2014 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by JBM

Exactly, there is a lot more going on in the world than Russia moving in with it's military that it is allowed to due under pacts and agreements that they had with the Ukrainians. That being said, NATO, UN and all those will just Saber rattle...anything that comes out of the WH will be dismissed.

That being said genocides are still being committed in Africa, which no one wants to deal with.

What it comes down to is that Putin is not afraid of anyone, especially President Obama with the empty threats. A lot of people don't know wtf that is going on but just what the media is briefing them.

Outcomes
1) Crimea region is given over to the Russians by the Ukrainians - Most likely
2) Russia moves out, with no shots fired. Also highly probable
3) UN/NATO Europe denounce and move militarily towards Ukraine to stop the "invasion" even though no shots were fired. Eerily like Austria\Germany but rest of Europe bowed over to him.

I hate to say it but on the World stage, I prefer Putin's diplomacy and show of strength than our leader's...

Just so I understand ...
1 - You want us to stay away from foreign conflict and "invading" other countries, and then say you prefer Putin's tactics of "invading" another country?

2 - You want us to stay away from foreign conflicts and then chastise the President for being soft and hedging his bets. So, do you want him to be stronger and really fight this or do you want us to stay away (as he's doing)?

Maybe he wants nothing to do with this conflict, but needs to save face politically on the international scale. If we wanted to be stronger in our opposition, we could be... Don't you think?

**JBM** · 03-02-2014 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by 1997gtx

Just so I understand ...
1 - You want us to stay away from foreign conflict and "invading" other countries, and then say you prefer Putin's tactics of "invading" another country?

No, I prefer Putin's strong image compared to President Obama's when it comes to foreign policy.

2 - You want us to stay away from foreign conflicts and then chastise the President for being soft and hedging his bets. So, do you want him to be stronger and really fight this or do you want us to stay away (as he's doing)?

Guess what, Putin called Europe's bluff. I want President Obama to be stronger so this wouldn't have happened. I am saying that threats should not be said when they are empty. Do you honestly think that "dire consequences" means anything? Nope.

Also a lot of people don't realize that Crimea is rebelling against Ukraine.
1) The leader of Crimea dissolved the government with a majority vote.
2) They put in a Pro-Russia leader since most of Crimea is Russian
3) That leader asked Russia to send in troops to help with ensuring order
4) No shots have been fired, just like Austria but then again it's different.
5) NATO will not go to war with Russia...

Maybe he wants nothing to do with this conflict, but needs to save face politically on the international scale. If we wanted to be stronger in our opposition, we could be... Don't you think?

What face is there to save? We have John Kerry making a fool of America...

**Operator** · 03-02-2014 12:16 PM

Gen. Patton could have been president, I doubt that would have mattered to Putin......

**Slow4** · 03-02-2014 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Operator

Gen. Patton could have been president, I doubt that would have mattered to Putin......

At least Patton didn't make empty "ramification" claims!

**aaaudiprotein** · 03-02-2014 07:42 PM

Ukrainian government been corrupted since 1991.
One side ( western) is pro European, the other one is Prorussian (most of eastern and southern part).
Russia knows that it just can't invade Ukraine. Not even about being scared of sanctions from EU and USA but simply because their own people will not understand this. Russians and Ukrainians are like older and younger brothers. Many of Western Ukrainians will disagree on this, but for those that live on the east side it's true.
You also don't forget that Ukrainian army can also fire back and it will get ugly.

Looooottts of the media you guys reading might be also fake, even when reading different ukrainian/russian sources you see thing that contradict each other.

The whole "aggression" thing is to show power and let current ukrainian leaders ( that are as corrupted as the previous one) that you can't just overthrow government against many laws ( most of them of course benefit. Russia).
I'm very against any military operations in Ukraine and I hope I'm being right on this.

**OverSpun** · 03-02-2014 10:09 PM

^ IMHO, it looks like Putin is taking advantage of Ukraine because they were/still susceptible since the protests in Kiev including ousting Yanukovych. Russia can invade whatever other countries care regardless the consequences. What is next? China and Iran deploy against Ukraine or who their allies are these days.

edit: ...What about the Paralympics? They'd have to be cancelled if Putin starts a war.

**marty was here** · 03-03-2014 08:38 AM

putin has put down a surrender deadline in crimea, shit is getting real.

real scary.

**aaaudiprotein** · 03-03-2014 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by marty was here

putin has put down a surrender deadline in crimea, shit is getting real.

real scary.

You see, once again, fake news
Where did you find it?

**marty was here** · 03-03-2014 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by aaaudiprotein

You see, once again, fake news
Where did you find it?

what do you mean fake?

can just threw the alert my phone. so did the two polish new sources.

**skiracerblah** · 03-03-2014 08:46 AM

Russia gives ultimatum to Ukrainian forces in Crimea: Clear out within 11 hours or face 'military storm,' Russian state media report.

**martianbooby** · 03-03-2014 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by marty was here

what do you mean fake?

can just threw the alert my phone. so did the two polish new sources.

so did the israeli news sources

me dont think this is fake, just a bunch of drunk ruskies invading places, nothing new

**marty was here** · 03-03-2014 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by skiracerblah

Russia gives ultimatum to Ukrainian forces in Crimea: Clear out within 11 hours or face 'military storm,' Russian state media report.

its fake?

ps, cousin of mine sells a lot of milk/beef/etc to the ukraine, he said the economy is basically shot at this point.

**aaaudiprotein** · 03-03-2014 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by OverSpun

^ IMHO, it looks like Putin is taking advantage of Ukraine because they were/still susceptible since the protests in Kiev including ousting Yanukovych. Russia can invade whatever other countries care regardless the consequences. What is next? China and Iran deploy against Ukraine or who their allies are these days.

edit: ...What about the Paralympics? They'd have to be cancelled if Putin starts a war.

Russia CAN NOT just invade Ukraine.
Like i said, Russia will lose half of its army if that happens, its economy will go to shit, and Russia will be trading only with China after that.

IMHO, what Putin is doing, he is trying all "prorussian ukranians" to allow him to come there, and "save" them.

Major eastern/southern cities already initiating referendum where they could vote whether they wanna stay or be part of Russia.
Even prorussian ukrainians are against it. The only reason why some are still thinking, is because current Ukrainian government is AS CORRUPT AS the previous one, and they see Russia as their big brother to help them out.

IMHO, if lets say Crimea votes for independence, or to become part of Russia, its only a big win for Russia. Basically it would along the lines of "people of Crimea decided for themselves".
But you cant forget about Tatars that are third biggest nationality on that peninsula, and they had big beef with Russia before, they already saying they will report only to Ukrainian government.

**aaaudiprotein** · 03-03-2014 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by marty was here

what do you mean fake?

can just threw the alert my phone. so did the two polish new sources.

Fake polish sources.
There are hundreds of fake ukrainian/russian sources as well going around.

It is a media war

Update:
I take it back, its true.

It just contradicts this http://podrobnosti.ua/power/2014/03/03/962226.html (google translate)

**marty was here** · 03-03-2014 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by aaaudiprotein

Fake polish sources.
There are hundreds of fake ukrainian/russian sources as well going around.

It is a media war

wait a minute bro, i think you are fucking up the lines. this is a show of force and a show of "are you gonna fuck with me?", from putin. do i think he will invade the entire country? no, but he's looking to see what the international community will do with his signs of aggression.

which is probably nothing until there is an all out war.

so hes gonna grab all the power/land/resources/money he can up until that point.

theres nothing fake about it.

**aaaudiprotein** · 03-03-2014 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by marty was here

wait a minute bro, i think you are fucking up the lines. this is a show of force and a show of "are you gonna fuck with me?", from putin. do i think he will invade the entire country? no, but he's looking to see what the international community will do with his signs of aggression.

which is probably nothing until there is an all out war.

so hes gonna grab all the power/land/resources/money he can up until that point.

theres nothing fake about it.

I was saying the ACTUAL WAR is less likely to happen.

Ukraine is not even sending its army there as of yet, they are trying not to make it worse.
There are sources saying that Russia is just waiting for Ukranian side to fire first, so then they could attack back.
There are already thousands of guys (from prorussian territory as well) signing up to be in army reserve. That shows that it could get ugly (I'm praying it will all end soon).

**marty was here** · 03-03-2014 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by aaaudiprotein

I was saying the ACTUAL WAR is less likely to happen.

Ukraine is not even sending its army there as of yet, they are trying not to make it worse.
There are sources saying that Russia is just waiting for Ukranian side to fire first, so then they could attack back.
There are already thousands of guys (from prorussian territory as well) signing up to be in army reserve. That shows that it could get ugly (I'm praying it will all end soon).

dude, this is russian and this is putin. I'm telling you, he fully comprehends that if there is a war he will have 2-3 months to pound every one into submission. he doesn't want to stay beyond that.

and if he can get shit for free before that, he will happily take it. i mean you and i both know how fucking crazy he was leading up to sochi right? this is that on a much larger scale, and as along as no one stops him, he will scoop up all the shit that he can.

**aaaudiprotein** · 03-03-2014 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by marty was here

dude, this is russian and this is putin. I'm telling you, he fully comprehends that if there is a war he will have 2-3 months to pound every one into submission. he doesn't want to stay beyond that.

and if he can get shit for free before that, he will happily take it. i mean you and i both know how fucking crazy he was leading up to sochi right? this is that on a much larger scale, and as along as no one stops him, he will scoop up all the shit that he can.

He also needs to consider that his own people will go against him.
There are soooo many russians already saying this is all BS, and they are against ANY military operations in Ukraine.

No doubt Russian army could invade Ukraine in 1-2 months, but whats going to happen after?

**aaaudiprotein** · 03-03-2014 09:17 AM

About the Ultimatum (just read about it)
Two Ukranian military ships are blocking the way to Sevastopol (near Russian Naval Base), so Russian Black Sea Navy General told them to move or they gonna be attacked. Ukranian ships stand still, said they are not going to move.

**aaaudiprotein** · 03-03-2014 09:22 AM

Update again:
http://news.mail.ru/politics/17221879/?frommail=1

Its a prorussian news website btw.

**skiracerblah** · 03-03-2014 11:36 AM

If Russia were to invade any country, it should've been Cyprus. They have more to lose in Cyprus than Ukraine...

**vajking** · 03-03-2014 11:48 AM

They have their people there by millions :)
They don't invade other countries for profit like some others do

**JBM** · 03-03-2014 12:21 PM

As I said before, Crimea region doesn't want shit with Kiev, so that's how 6,000 Russian Troops, 20+ Attack Helicopters and a bunch of other equipment rolls over the border and into the key military points without a single shot fired...

Really? How are we going to argue this.

1) Crimea doesn't want anything to do with Kiev, so they want their Independence right? Wait doesn't that sound like the "Revolutionaries" in Kiev and what they did? Hypocritical
2) Russia has major interests in the region with the Black Sea Fleet. If Kiev wants to be in bed with EU that would be like the ex-boyfriend still being allowed to park it's car in the garage...yeah not going to happen
3) Russia would destroy Ukraine, Ukraine needs to allow Crimea to break off, because 1) Crimea wants to 2) Russia wants it to....

**aaaudiprotein** · 03-03-2014 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by JBM

1) Crimea doesn't want anything to do with Kiev, so they want their Independence right? Wait doesn't that sound like the "Revolutionaries" in Kiev and what they did? Hypocritical

Yes they do. First of all, only "prorussian" citizens considering to get independence, because they think its gonna be better.

2) Russia has major interests in the region with the Black Sea Fleet. If Kiev wants to be in bed with EU that would be like the ex-boyfriend still being allowed to park it's car in the garage...yeah not going to happen

This is exactly why Russia is not giving up. With Yanukovich (president that got overthrown) they were ok, and nobody was worrying about NATO's navy being there.
With new government, they are scared of losing it.

3) Russia would destroy Ukraine, Ukraine needs to allow Crimea to break off, because 1) Crimea wants to 2) Russia wants it to....

Russia obviously would destroy Ukraine, but like i said, russians and ukrainians are like americans and canadians times 2 or 3.
1. Only minority does
2. And? Russia itself got Kaliningrad (right by Germany) and Eastern part (right by China) where majority of people are not even russians anymore

IMHO, Russia was fine with Yanukovich. Europe was "whatever".
Russia wants to be present in Black Sea. With current government, they see many obstacles and possible "gtfo".

Most of Ukranian Navy (they live in Crimea, and speak russian) are on Ukranian side. That should explain alot.

**OverSpun** · 03-03-2014 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by aaaudiprotein

Update again:
http://news.mail.ru/politics/17221879/?frommail=1

Its a prorussian news website btw.

I don't speak Russian, Baxter! :)

Posted from my iPhone.

**vajking** · 03-03-2014 10:18 PM

If you think about it, Kosovo is really similar to this situation.
A provice that wanted breakaway from the country. Just exact the same situation.

Although this one seems to be handled far better than the previous intevention in the balkans, at least for now.

**JBM** · 03-04-2014 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by aaaudiprotein

Yes they do. First of all, only "prorussian" citizens considering to get independence, because they think its gonna be better.

IMHO, Russia was fine with Yanukovich. Europe was "whatever".
Russia wants to be present in Black Sea. With current government, they see many obstacles and possible "gtfo".

Most of Ukranian Navy (they live in Crimea, and speak russian) are on Ukranian side. That should explain alot.

The Admiral of the Navy just pledged allegience to Crimea...that is pretty moot. And I was talking about the population of Crimea wants to be with Russia. The majority does, the Tatars...well they are just a minority Turk group and can go to Ukraine if they want...

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