B8/B8.5 DSG Problem Poll (Any Kind of Failure)

[drob23]

There's been discussion about reliability of the B8 DSG (DL501) and mostly speculation about how widespread the problem is. To weed out very low mileage B8's, will further partition that set. We can include the B8.5 S5, but not the B8 S5 or B8.5 RS5 since they are mounted to different engines (although feel free to argue for inclusion). It goes without saying this sample is preconditioned on being a member at audizine, but there are enough people here (IMO) to prevent any kind of "only members with mech unit failures join" bias argument. Decided to make this about "failure" rather than "mech failure" since any kind of early transmission failure (less than 50k miles) should be viewed as highly problematic IMO.

Purpose: Get some actual numbers about DSG failure rates. Help prospective buyers and current owners have an idea of failure probability.

The major failure modes we know of are

1) Mechatronic Units Failing - the ECU that controls the DSG shifting is packaged within the oil cooled system, with the PCB exposed. The failure of this unit is either due to the chemical properties of the oil reacting with board, the heat from this oil or some combination of both. The result can be a bucking sensation on the 1-2 shift or 2-1 shift. Replacing this unit can cost anywhere in the 5-8k neighborhood;

2) Gear Change Sensor Failure - TSB relating to the "drive range sensor". Can show up as the warning "Gearbox Malfunction You Can Keep Driving" but no bucking sensation. Not sure of cost, but guessing somewhere in 3k range? Someone have source?;

3) Clutchpack Failure or Premature Wear - Caused by driving the transmission hard or long-term wear. Haven't heard of anyone with this problem, so including it in the poll but doubt it factors in much.

Background - The VW/Audi group released a worldwide recall for the 7 spd transverse unit, which can only be found on the jetta hybrid in NA. This recall pertained to replacing the DSG fluid - from synthetic to mineral. The failure was described by VW/Audi as " electric malfunctions could occur in the gearbox power supply if synthetic gearbox oil is used" source. This unit (DQ250) uses only a single oil circuit, compared to the dual oil circuits in the logitudinal DSG.

There was an update to the DSG in 2013, the ratios were changed, not sure what else. The center differential was also changed (not that this matters). This transmission should be in the B8.5 S4/S5 and RS5. (If anyone has details about technical differences, please post!)

Also, if you debate any of the technical info provided, please provide the correct info with source and I will update the OP.

[raudiace4]

2012 DSG, just crossed 20K miles this weekend. No problems. Stock ecu.

[MilesM]

Still (extremely) low on mileage, <2k, so I'll wait to vote until I get more on the odo. So far no issues. Stock till this point, not from here out.

[superswiss]

A few technical tidbits that I have come across. The major issue with the transverse DSG, internally known as DQ250, is that this transmission is using only one oil circuit. The oil with all the gunk from the rest of the transmission is over time corroding the electronic circuits in the mechatronic unit.

The longitudinal DSG, internally known as DL501 among other things utilizes two oil circuits. Putting the mechatronic unit on its own oil circuit. This is the transmission in the B8 and B8.5. There have been improvements along the way, but I don't have any details. I believe from what I read is that early production units had some issues.

The RS5 has a different Quattro Gmbh tuned mechatronic unit. The biggest changes are much faster hydraulics and software changes such as a true manual mode that allows one to hit redline and bounce off the rev limiter, but otherwise it is the same DL501 transmission. In addition, the RS5 calls for regular transmission fluid changes. The first one at 15k miles and then I believe every 10k miles or something like that.

[cspcrx]

based on all that I have read it seems to be more of an issue with the 2010 & 2011 than the 2012+.

I hope I did not just jinx myself. No issues so far...

[saxon]

2011 29k miles, no tune, no issues

[drob23]

A few technical tidbits that I have come across. The major issue with the transverse DSG, internally known as DQ250, is that this transmission is using only one oil circuit. The oil with all the gunk from the rest of the transmission is over time corroding the electronic circuits in the mechatronic unit.

The longitudinal DSG, internally known as DL501 among other things utilizes two oil circuits. Putting the mechatronic unit on its own oil circuit. This is the transmission in the B8 and B8.5. There have been improvements along the way, but I don't have any details. I believe from what I read is that early production units had some issues.

The RS5 has a different Quattro Gmbh tuned mechatronic unit. The biggest changes are much faster hydraulics and software changes such as a true manual mode that allows one to hit redline and bounce off the rev limiter, but otherwise it is the same DL501 transmission. In addition, the RS5 calls for regular transmission fluid changes. The first one at 15k miles and then I believe every 10k miles or something like that.

Interesting info, thanks. I'd agree with you that the single oil circuit should make things worse, however, we've seen similar issues with the longitudinal DCT's so it could be the fundamental flaw is letting the electronics bathe oil, single or dual circuit. But the single circuit probably exacerbates the problem. Interesting that their recall move was to put in a mineral based oil. Anyone know how this would change the chemistry or cooling properties? Maybe speed up the service intervals?

That's interesting about RS5 10k fluid flush, I agree that it definitely has a differently tuned box. It's probably best to keep it out of the polls. Doesn't the RS5 also have additional oil coolering units or capacity? Not sure if these are used on either of the transmission circuits.

[NWS4Guy]

I'll toss some knowledge to this thread:
http://drivelinenews.com/transmissio...mission-works/

[superswiss]

Doesn't the RS5 also have additional oil coolering units or capacity? Not sure if these are used on either of the transmission circuits.

What I know for sure is that the RS5 has better air management. It has air ducts that channel more air to the transmission and brakes for better cooling. It does appear to have a different oil pan as well, which was actually prone to leaking. I had a leak and now have an updated design.

[IanCH]

My 2011 S4 crossed 79k this weekend, no indication of issues from my end and the car's service history does not show any transmission work in the history other than regular service.

The car is stock power train other than 3 k miles with a modified intake (no big deal)

[b8audis4]

My 2011 S4 crossed 79k this weekend, no indication of issues from my end and the car's service history does not show any transmission work in the history other than regular service.

The car is stock power train other than 3 k miles with a modified intake (no big deal)

Wow! Great to hear!

[yourownhero]

2010 S4 mechatronic replaced at 45k miles

I noticed the signs of a bad mech unit probably around 30k miles, but it wasn't that big of a deal at the time for it happened once in a blue moon.

The issue was getting worse as the car put on more miles. I had the infamous rear end bang when coming to a stop only after the car was warmed up or hot, or in traffic as well as the banging between P-R-N-D and vice versa when stopped after a hot day.

I ended up being able to replicate it for the dealer and after a few weeks they had it replaced at ~45k all under warranty.

I was TD1 at the time (APR stage 2, custom exhaust, intake, etc), but dealer replaced under warranty anyway as per direction from Audi of America.

Car has been smooth as silk shifting ever since the replacement, and unlike a few others, I did not lose my DSG fart.

[zcd2.7t]

There's been discussion about reliability of the B8 DSG ...and mostly speculation about how widespread the problem is....

I get the whole "people only join the forum to post their problems" angle, but it seems like almost 50% of the owners here with 2010 DSG's have had the mech unit replaced. ... because what I've seen here leads me to believe it's a big systematic issue.

So, how do you feel about the poll results disproving (so far) your contention that the B8/B8.5 DSG has "a big systematic issue"?

[drob23]

So, how do you feel about the poll results disproving (so far) your contention that the B8/B8.5 DSG has "a big systematic issue"?

Hard to say, I don't think 20% fail rate or whatever it is for the B8 is good by any means, but 23 results doesn't exactly prove much. Hopefully, more people will see this and we'll get somewhere around 50-60 submissions for the B8. One thing this does show that the b8.5 might have fixed the problem. Wish we knew why, other than lower miles...

Although, I see you cross quoting me from another thread, and yea, 50% seems too high for sure.

[zcd2.7t]

....but 23 results doesn't exactly prove much. Hopefully, more people will see this and we'll get somewhere around 50-60 submissions for the B8...

39 voters as of 3:40 pm CST, 5 with problems = 85% with no problems.

I'd be thinking of something else to worry about if I were you, like what your spacers are going to do to your wheel bearings...

[rs4dreams]

So, how do you feel about the poll results disproving (so far) your contention that the B8/B8.5 DSG has "a big systematic issue"?

To be fair, 16% of responders have had issues. That is a very high number, especially considering that more than half have had problems with <20k miles.

[drob23]

39 voters as of 3:40 pm CST, 5 with problems = 85% with no problems.

Yea and half of those have B8.5's, 20% of the prefacelift. As of 3:40 CST 5 failures and 19 nothing => 21% failure

In my eyes 20% chance of having a 8k repair is a "big systematic problem", would you not agree?

[drob23]

39 voters as of 3:40 pm CST, 5 with problems = 85% with no problems.

I'd be thinking of something else to worry about if I were you, like what your spacers are going to do to your wheel bearings...

Not sure exactly why you're attacking me, but thanks for your concern.

[zcd2.7t]

Yea and half of those have B8.5's, 20% of the prefacelift. As of 3:40 CST 5 failures and 19 nothing => 21% failure

In my eyes 20% chance of having a 8k repair is a "big systematic problem", would you not agree?

I would only agree that you're grasping at straws at this point, having found out that your contention that "at least 50% of the DSG owners have had issues" (paraphrased) isn't even in the ballpark.

Your subsequent suggestion that all of these issues (which you went to great lengths to specify should NOT be only complete failure) would cost $8K to repair further undermines your argument, since the bulk of them won't cost that much, and most would be repaired under warranty, costing the owners nothing.

Wait, you mean cars have PROBLEMS?!?!? <smacks forehead> Whoda BELIEVED it?!?!?! /sarcasm

[zcd2.7t]

... Enjoy proving me wrong...

That's the funniest thing about this - I'm not attacking you - your own poll is proving you wrong.

The irony is perfectly awesome.

[saxon]

Yea and half of those have B8.5's, 20% of the prefacelift. As of 3:40 CST 5 failures and 19 nothing => 21% failure

In my eyes 20% chance of having a 8k repair is a "big systematic problem", would you not agree?

If anything it was us having a debate, no hard feelings and I hope this poll helps out the community either way. Even if we got to 100 votes I don't think it would be all that accurate but would give us more information than we have now

[drob23]

That's the funniest thing about this - I'm not attacking you - your own poll is proving you wrong.

The irony is perfectly awesome.

Did you not read post 14, I already admitted that I was wrong and 50% was too high. Good job, you got me.

If anything it was us having a debate, no hard feelings and I hope this poll helps out the community either way. Even if we got to 100 votes I don't think it would be all that accurate but would give us more information than we have now

And it was a good debate, not sure why things are being cross posted but whatever, hopefully this serves to give us a better idea of the failure rates rather than inferring from some intense threads.

[zcd2.7t]

...not sure why things are being cross posted but whatever...

"Things" you wrote are being cross-posted to make certain that the context for this poll is understood by those who might not bother to read the other thread.

Context can be a b*tch when trying to make a point, which is why some prefer that it be left out....

[drob23]

One big thing I take away from this poll is the failure rate of the facelift appears to be way down. This bodes well for people wanting to tune, but hesitant to do so if the mech unit might grenade itself. Might be too early to make this call, but knock on wood...

[IanCH]

One big thing I take away from this poll is the failure rate of the facelift appears to be way down. This bodes well for people wanting to tune, but hesitant to do so if the mech unit might grenade itself. Might be too early to make this call, but knock on wood...

I'm not saying I dont think they did revisions to the trans to stop problems but sampling a ton of cars that average ~10k miles right now is not a good indicator.

[drob23]

I'm not saying I dont think they did revisions to the trans to stop problems but sampling a ton of cars that average ~10k miles right now is not a good indicator.

Point taken, although people have been driving the 2013's since July 2012, so I'm sure there's a few high mileage guys with at least 40k. But yea, premature to make any definite conclusions.

[drob23]

Lots of DSG problem talk, bumping this thread to get more data from anyone who hasn't seen it.

[Luna's S4]

Thanks! Missed it originally. 33k on the 2011 and all fun, no problems. Tuned and tracked a few times.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have posted this information in another thread. Feel compelled to update this post from over a year ago.

At 38,200 miles had a Gear fault Warning message. Fault 179d00 cooling electrical valve error. TSB 2030477/6 advises replacement of the electrical harness. "Removed the electrical harness, cleaned all the electrical contacts and installed the new spacers. Installed the new harness and reinstalled the mechatronics..."

All this on the LAST day of Four Year warranty. No charge to me.

[iant]

It is interesting that exactly one third (12 out of a total of 36) of B8 owners, that have responded with over 20K, have had problems (as of 19:30 GMT)

Would you fly on a plane with that failure rate????

[MilesM]

It is interesting that exactly one third (12 out of a total of 36) of B8 owners, that have responded with over 20K, have had problems (as of 19:30 GMT)

Would you fly on a plane with that failure rate????

We aren't exactly risking our lives with a transmission failure.

Also, majority of people coming to a thread with a title like this one has will be looking for answers to their problems.

[drob23]

We aren't exactly risking our lives with a transmission failure.

Also, majority of people coming to a thread with a title like this one has will be looking for answers to their problems.

I've followed this thread and the only time the sample makes any kind of useful growth is when it's on the front page. It's not proposing facts, but it's clear that the early DSG's had high failure rates and the facelift ones have *yet* to see these problems. Whether it's 30% or 20% or 15%, it's not good. The hope is that Audi will extend the warranty on the transmission like they've done before (not due to this thread lol).

[GabrielSyler]

2013 B8.5 with APR STage 2+ 8000km and no issues. did two 1500km runs - with only quick petrol breaks and various levels of enthusiastic driving - and have had no problems at all.

[drob23]

This thread definitely makes me feel pretty comfortable going to Stg 2 in the near future...

[iant]

We aren't exactly risking our lives with a transmission failure.

Also, majority of people coming to a thread with a title like this one has will be looking for answers to their problems.

True (in most cases) but what I was referring to was quality levels, hardly 3.4 parts per million defect is it

Totally agree about the majority of people....

[Bikel]

missed this poll first time around... 65k and no DSG issues whatsoever.

[B8 Jake]

Hey guys, it's been a little while since I've been back on AudiZine but I have been floating Around here and just came across this thread.

I have a 2011 S4 DSG that just passed 42k. On my daily drive I notice that I have a terrible knock/thump. It seems that if I am on a hill I need to accelerate extremely slow to get rolling or the thump will occur and it sounds horrible. If I'm not on a hill (flat road) from a dead stop I need to accelerate pretty slowly to get rolling or I will get the thump, it's not as bad as if it were on a hill but it still does not sound good.

My car is totally stock and always warmed up. I hope this is not a problem and is just totally normal. I am still under warrantee so I figured I better ask.

Thanks!
Jake

[theKB]

looking at the poll numbers, any proportion like that should be unacceptable to a manufacturer. I know it's bias but it still proves the point that there are major issues with the transmission.

[2871rgti]

Bump for this. I'm interested to see more contributions.

2013 B8.5 S5. 8200mi and no DSG issues.

[RudyH]

2010 S4 mechatronic replaced at 45k miles

I noticed the signs of a bad mech unit probably around 30k miles, but it wasn't that big of a deal at the time for it happened once in a blue moon.

The issue was getting worse as the car put on more miles. I had the infamous rear end bang when coming to a stop only after the car was warmed up or hot, or in traffic as well as the banging between P-R-N-D and vice versa when stopped after a hot day.

I ended up being able to replicate it for the dealer and after a few weeks they had it replaced at ~45k all under warranty.

I was TD1 at the time (APR stage 2, custom exhaust, intake, etc), but dealer replaced under warranty anyway as per direction from Audi of America.

Car has been smooth as silk shifting ever since the replacement, and unlike a few others, I did not lose my DSG fart.

Bit curious on this...
So for me it kind of started especially in Dynamic mode. Is it limited to 1-2 and 2-1 which it occasionally does, I noticed going 3-4 in Auto mode recently.

[P Rock]

2010 with 46k miles, fresh out of warranty and VERY concerned Although 15-20% is a high % of failure (IMO), I'm trying to be positive and also look at the 80-85% as being a majority who hasn't had any issues. Any of the higher mileage guys (70k+) want to chime in?

Also would like to bump for more entries.

So does this mainly effect modded cars or is it pretty much the same whether modded or not? I've seen it mentioned both ways.