REVO ECU Unlock TSB and Tool Pics

[richib86]

It's really not that bad. Sheer bolts on the 6MT sucks but other than that, it's fairly easy. I've done it a few times.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

even with the sheer bolts it comes out in only a few minutes

[SwankPeRFection]

I agree that a flash at home option would be nice and probably give a market advantage if done right. All I was saying is the "if someone wants to do it, they'll do it" argument is not valid. There's no arguing there's an increased risk of IP theft that comes with offering DIY flashing and this risk needs to be weighed against the advantages. Its a pretty straight forward business decision.

There is a way to do it and maintain fairly tight security. They build a flashing device that has WIFI and VPN capabilities internally. They secure the OS and all the code on that box with encryption to keep local access to it from happening. Then, you build a backend server system that's accessible via the web by the home user through individual accounts on high encryption SSL and the process is as follows.

The flashing box they are sold/issued is serialized/licensed and bound to their online ID they use for the server access. They turn on the flashing box and it connects via WIFI to the home user's home WIFI network (this would be configurable via software and a USB cable to the box earlier in the process when they receive the box, activate it, and create their user ID and account into with the tuning company) and once that base Internet connection is up, the box nails up a secure VPN tunnel for further instructional use. Once that's up, the user will see on the online server system that their flashing box has connected to their account and server backend and is ready to receive further instructions. At this point the user picks what map they want to flash down to the car and the server backend bundles said map, signs it with a specific security token and sends it out to the remote flashing box. The box then receives that file, unlocks it since it would know what the token is from it's own security algorithm onboard and starts the flash process through the OBDII port. When it's all done, it signals back to the server backend that it's done and the user can then finish their process.

Now, all you have to make sure you have in place with a system like this is a locked down software system on the flashing box that's hard to crack, a secure connection between the box and Internet server that stops working at the first sign of a man-in-the-middle attack and of course some kind of security measure on the OBDII cable if you want to go that far to keep people from snooping on that side of the box. I don't know what measure would be... maybe resistance or voltage based since tapping in could slightly change these things. But again, I'm just throwing out an idea here... I'm good with concepts, all the underlying legwork would be handled by the guy who actually write the code and design things. I think it can be a pretty secure system in the long run, but I'm happy to hear people poke holes in the concept if they see any. Maybe we can all help these companies spark an idea for something we can all benefit from.

[NWS4Guy]

Finally, someone comes out and says it. There you go everyone.... that was old shit and I'd like to point out that at one time early on, not even APR could ODBII port flash these things, so it's not like their shit never stunk too.

I'm not trying to defend anyone, I'm just trying to get you guys to see the perspective here. The competition you see with the bickering threads is nothing more than sales tactics to try and gain more business. Everyone is allowed to do it to make themselves seem better than the other guy, but everyone should remember that at one point in time, those same limitations were governing them too.

What APR did was much less invasive than desoldering and soldering. It did require physical ECU removal and opening to allow contact points on the board to be touched, not exactly foolproof, but compared to heating up critical components (twice!) and replacing the component with very finite amount of room for error, it's much safer. This isn't about saying one player or the other's "shit didn't stink" this is about accepting risks and mitigating those risks to the customer as best you can. To be honest, I am shocked you believed Jeff and even allowed that APR's method was better initially. Kudos and a huge step forward for you!

even with the sheer bolts it comes out in only a few minutes

Yes, I have personally pulled mine numerous times. It takes about 5 minutes, and is very time consuming and a HUGE pain in the ass

[SwankPeRFection]

What APR did was much less invasive than desoldering and soldering. It did require physical ECU removal and opening to allow contact points on the board to be touched, not exactly foolproof, but compared to heating up critical components (twice!) and replacing the component with very finite amount of room for error, it's much safer. This isn't about saying one player or the other's "shit didn't stink" this is about accepting risks and mitigating those risks to the customer as best you can. To be honest, I am shocked you believed Jeff and even allowed that APR's method was better initially. Kudos and a huge step forward for you!

Well, let's not forget there was a time when APR would desolder the main eprom chip off the board, solder on a socket in its place and then the process would be unplug eprom chip off board, flash it in a flasher and put it back in the new socket. I know it was many platforms ago, but it did happen... that's how the whole "Chipped" terminology even came to be known instead of people using the proper "Flash" terminology.

[infinkc]

Yea would be cool if they brought back the EMCS programming to the simos ecus
http://www.goapr.com/support/emcs_version_upgrade.html

[AQuattro]

There is a way to do it and maintain fairly tight security..... .

Sounds fancy. The problem I see is that whatever comes out of the black box has to be in a language the ECU can understand. This is probably a relatively standard protocol. Someone that knows what they''re doing will be able to monitor this communication and see how the process works and probably recreate it. I think in the end it's going to take a company like Cobb or someone else to enter the market with a DIY product for APR or GIAC to seriously consider offering something similar.

[SwankPeRFection]

Sounds fancy. The problem I see is that whatever comes out of the black box has to be in a language the ECU can understand. This is probably a relatively standard protocol. Someone that knows what they''re doing will be able to monitor this communication and see how the process works and probably recreate it. I think in the end it's going to take a company like Cobb or someone else to enter the market with a DIY product for APR or GIAC to seriously consider offering something similar.

I discussed this aspect of the security layer in the last part of my post. It could be possible to secure it or not depending on design. One thing they could do is not make the box connect via a cable. The OBDII plug could be part of the flasher box and have a interrupt switch on the plug. People would then need to back-probe the back of the OBDII port on the car. Either way, it's all about making things too difficult to be worth it in the end, since nothing is fully secure. If people wanted to leak out their tech, it would have happened already from one of their dealers... nobody resists the opportunity to leak something if the kickbacks are enough. It's probably not happened because each of the 3 tuners have the same capabilities now, and even with new advancements, all 3 of them end up at the same endpoint within a few months of each other. There's just no competition, so they concentrate on their tunes rather than ripping each other off on the flashing tech.

Hell, if they wanted to, they could even require the ECU be removed from the car to plug into the flashing box directly. There are ways to make things difficult for the rippers is all I'm saying...

[Arin@APR]

As a potential customer, I like the idea of being able to DIY flashing back to stock and vice versa.

Trust me. I get it. The idea, the concept, all of that is pretty cool and neat.

I would like to bring up two more points:

1. Tech support - Oh boy, I can only imagine how much tech support would be involved with such a device!

2. It could stop working tomorrow - As I said earlier, Audi could close the doors and the device would be worthless. I don't think that would go over well with our customer base if they got an update and could no longer use the hardware. Hardware is also a big investment. It takes time and money to create and if it could all be gone tomorrow (since that's the direction everythings always heading). It could be a big loss on everyones end (both company and customer) and I wouldn't want to be on the forefront of it all dealing with the angry mobs wanting refunds for their now worthless device.

Again, like I said, I get it. I totally get the idea and in some forms, I like it.

From a customers outside perspective, it seems simple.

From where I sit, I see all the caveats to the devices ultimate success.

Well, let's not forget there was a time when APR would desolder the main eprom chip off the board, solder on a socket in its place and then the process would be unplug eprom chip off board, flash it in a flasher and put it back in the new socket. I know it was many platforms ago, but it did happen... that's how the whole "Chipped" terminology even came to be known instead of people using the proper "Flash" terminology.

Swank,

I hope we never have to go back to that time, and so does everyone else. Some people were soldering masters. Others... not so much!

However, you may be missing the point. Here was the point to all those arguments:

I advertised our flash as not requiring any soldering as I saw this as a clear and cut advantage to our flashing method.

Revo's former GM would not admit to soldering at all, even when directly asked by customers.

Many people felt it was dishonest to not disclose the fact the ECU had to not only be opened, but a Revo dealer would actually be responsible for desoldering a chip and resoldering it to the board, potentially damaging it in the process.

[saxon]

Trust me. I get it. The idea, the concept, all of that is pretty cool and neat.

I would like to bring up two more points:

1. Tech support - Oh boy, I can only imagine how much tech support would be involved with such a device!

2. It could stop working tomorrow - As I said earlier, Audi could close the doors and the device would be worthless. I don't think that would go over well with our customer base if they got an update and could no longer use the hardware. Hardware is also a big investment. It takes time and money to create and if it could all be gone tomorrow (since that's the direction everythings always heading). It could be a big loss on everyones end (both company and customer) and I wouldn't want to be on the forefront of it all dealing with the angry mobs wanting refunds for their now worthless device.

Again, like I said, I get it. I totally get the idea and in some forms, I like it.

From a customers outside perspective, it seems simple.

From where I sit, I see all the caveats to the devices ultimate success.

1) absolutely you would need tech support, through a well managed tech guide/forum/dealers i dont see any problems. KISS keep it simple and easy to use and the problems will be few

2)Its funny you say this yet there are plenty of manufactures who have these tools out in hands of users without problems for BMW, Mitsubishi, honda etc.... not to mention the GTR (ive heard tuners compare the factory ecu to motek if not better)

3) i dont think you understand how a device like this could move a company into direct market share. do a vin lock on it and marry it to a car. if unmarried sell another user license to the next person . this would allow a resale value (huge benefit compared to current), it would also allow that device into the hand of those who couldnt justify $2,000 for a tune but can justify $800 and $300 for a license. imagine that device selling three times over 4-6 years and you have more money. not only that but it takes away from the "cheaper" tuners out there because at that price point you would be in direct competition and with the name of the company most would be foolish to choose another brand.

if i could buy a product and use it for a year or two (my typical lifecycle) and then resell it i would be much more likely to purchase that product than one that has no value when i sell the car.

i have a credit card ready for the first company who offers this product at a reasonable cost.

[Arin@APR]

Like I said, from the outside, all seems great. From the inside, not so much. I appreciate the input nonetheless.

[bobsaver]

Thanks for sharing, Swank.

To add clarity here, the photo and data shown is for the latest 1767 processor / MED/EDC17 ECUs and not anything related to a B8 S4.

And since I'm here, visit your local Revo dealer and receive 15% off STaSIS Motorsport software. Use promo code: Swank15 *valid until 10/31/2013*

Let me know if you have any other questions,

Hi Jeff, does that discount code work here in Finland for a Revo map for my Golf 6 TDI 4Motion 1.6 CR??

Great reading all this, very interesting indeed.

[tico]

Trust me. I get it. The idea, the concept, all of that is pretty cool and neat.

I would like to bring up two more points:

1. Tech support - Oh boy, I can only imagine how much tech support would be involved with such a device!


From a customers outside perspective, it seems simple.

From where I sit, I see all the caveats to the devices ultimate success.

Arin, your number 1 issue is just another revenue generator. Convert that issue into a money machine.

I bought my access port through a Cobb dealer with one year of support and custom tuning. Services is where the money is. I am not even sure i will use the support i bought or the custom tuning.

[Arin@APR]

Arin, your number 1 issue is just another revenue generator. Convert that issue into a money machine.

I bought my access port through a Cobb dealer with one year of support and custom tuning. Services is where the money is. I am not even sure i will use the support i bought or the custom tuning.

The concept of paying for support is a difficult one for me. If I read about a customer with a legit problem, I would have a tough time not responding if they were not paying.

[well_armed]

Two or even three tiered distribution is around for a reason.

If it is ripe for disruption, it will happen. Just don't ask APR to do it for you.

[QuattroLife]

1) absolutely you would need tech support, through a well managed tech guide/forum/dealers i dont see any problems. KISS keep it simple and easy to use and the problems will be few

2)Its funny you say this yet there are plenty of manufactures who have these tools out in hands of users without problems for BMW, Mitsubishi, honda etc.... not to mention the GTR (ive heard tuners compare the factory ecu to motek if not better)

3) i dont think you understand how a device like this could move a company into direct market share. do a vin lock on it and marry it to a car. if unmarried sell another user license to the next person . this would allow a resale value (huge benefit compared to current), it would also allow that device into the hand of those who couldnt justify $2,000 for a tune but can justify $800 and $300 for a license. imagine that device selling three times over 4-6 years and you have more money. not only that but it takes away from the "cheaper" tuners out there because at that price point you would be in direct competition and with the name of the company most would be foolish to choose another brand.

if i could buy a product and use it for a year or two (my typical lifecycle) and then resell it i would be much more likely to purchase that product than one that has no value when i sell the car.

i have a credit card ready for the first company who offers this product at a reasonable cost.

Nissan/Mitsubishi/Honda aren't as motivated as VAG for closing off the software backdoors. That's an VAG problem, not a tuner problem. And by VAG problem I mean as Arin stated.. there's a possibility that VAG can close off all of the software backdoors that GIAC/APR use for port flashing and all of the sudden next week the hardware wouldn't work anymore. As for BMW? There's a reason COBB doesn't have a tune for the N55 motor (harsher security/possible hardware backdoor needed).

[Jeff@RevoUSA]

Hi Jeff, does that discount code work here in Finland for a Revo map for my Golf 6 TDI 4Motion 1.6 CR??

Great reading all this, very interesting indeed.

Sure. PM coming your way.

[SwankPeRFection]

lol at the discount code. I didn't pay close enough attention to the actual code until last night. haha, good one Jeff.

[saxon]

Nissan/Mitsubishi/Honda aren't as motivated as VAG for closing off the software backdoors. That's an VAG problem, not a tuner problem. And by VAG problem I mean as Arin stated.. there's a possibility that VAG can close off all of the software backdoors that GIAC/APR use for port flashing and all of the sudden next week the hardware wouldn't work anymore. As for BMW? There's a reason COBB doesn't have a tune for the N55 motor (harsher security/possible hardware backdoor needed).

why would one manufacturer be more resistant to blocking the tuning aftermarket than the next? there is always a way around it if they do . i cant imagine a manufacture taking the time/efforts to go back and rewrite code just to stop a minority of tuners from hacking into it.

[AQuattro]

why would one manufacturer be more resistant to blocking the tuning aftermarket than the next? there is always a way around it if they do . i cant imagine a manufacture taking the time/efforts to go back and rewrite code just to stop a minority of tuners from hacking into it.

It's called risk management.

ECU harder to crack or hide tune = less tuned cars = less warranty claims company has to pay for

But making the ECU harder to crack costs money so there needs to be a balance. An Audi engine costs 20k. A Honda or Subaru engine is probably closer to 5k. Who do you think would spend more money on minimizing their risk?

Car manufactures update tunes all the time for lots of reasons. The cost to them to remove a back door is small in the big picture.

[SwankPeRFection]

It's called risk management.

ECU harder to crack or hide tune = less tuned cars = less warranty claims company has to pay for

But making the ECU harder to crack costs money so there needs to be a balance. An Audi engine costs 20k. A Honda or Subaru engine is probably closer to 5k. Who do you think would spend more money on minimizing their risk?

Car manufactures update tunes all the time for lots of reasons. The cost to them to remove a back door is small in the big picture.

I remember a time when a Cadillac Northstar engine cost less than a B18C5, so I wouldn't go too far and say one is more expensive than the next in terms of figurative cost. Just because the dealer bill said 20k to fix your blown engine under warranty doesn't really mean shit. But granted, the part isn't cheap... we get that. Also, remember that those other cars cost less than an S4, so of course the engine won't have a similar cost but retroactively speaking, those companies would have the same stake in trying to keep from covering unwarranted engine replacements. Just because it's cheaper doesn't make it OK for a company to absorb any less than if it cost more.

I do always find it amusing how you can go look up all the parts that make up your car and come out with a cost that's WAY above what the cost of the actual new car was. Just seems wrong to me... I don't care how you look at it.

[AQuattro]

Just because it's cheaper doesn't make it OK for a company to absorb any less than if it cost more.

Look at it like insurance. Insuring a 500k house is going to cost more than a 200k house right? Well for the same reasons a manufacturer will spend more to mange the risks associated with a higher value product.

I do always find it amusing how you can go look up all the parts that make up your car and come out with a cost that's WAY above what the cost of the actual new car was. Just seems wrong to me... I don't care how you look at it.

Pretty simple economics on this one. Funneling parts in bulk through a mass production facility costs WAY less than packaging each of those parts individually, shipping them in much smaller quantities to a warehouse and then even smaller quantities to a retail store, where they need to be sold individually.

[SwankPeRFection]

Pretty simple economics on this one. Funneling parts in bulk through a mass production facility costs WAY less than packaging each of those parts individually, shipping them in much smaller quantities to a warehouse and then even smaller quantities to a retail store, where they need to be sold individually.

No, we're talking about straight up Audi parts. It's highway robbery and if you do the same research with all brands of cars, you'll see that they all do the same thing. It's nothing more than a money making process from replacement parts. It doesn't cost them more to make that part if it goes in the car when built or when something breaks on it months/years later. Yes, there is a cost associated with stockpiling enough of these parts, storing them, etc. but if you look at the prices, you'll see they are several times as much as they would be when the car is actually put together. Also, stating that it's because the manufacturer buys these parts in limited quantities after production is also not entirely right as everything they get is usually bulk anyway. Some of that inventory goes to production and some of it goes to the chain of replacement parts. I'd be interested to see the individualized build sheet cost of a car, then comparing that to the MSRP and Invoice of the car and then the actual parts costs to build that same car again if you bought all those parts after the fact. I think it's safe to say the cost would be about 300k for an S4 at the price points we've seen. Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit on the price, but it sure as hell isn't going to be 60k or anywhere close to what you might have paid for it. I just don't agree with this sort of thing, that's all.

[integroid]

No, we're talking about straight up Audi parts. It's highway robbery and if you do the same research with all brands of cars, you'll see that they all do the same thing. It's nothing more than a money making process from replacement parts. It doesn't cost them more to make that part if it goes in the car when built or when something breaks on it months/years later. Yes, there is a cost associated with stockpiling enough of these parts, storing them, etc. but if you look at the prices, you'll see they are several times as much as they would be when the car is actually put together. Also, stating that it's because the manufacturer buys these parts in limited quantities after production is also not entirely right as everything they get is usually bulk anyway. Some of that inventory goes to production and some of it goes to the chain of replacement parts. I'd be interested to see the individualized build sheet cost of a car, then comparing that to the MSRP and Invoice of the car and then the actual parts costs to build that same car again if you bought all those parts after the fact. I think it's safe to say the cost would be about 300k for an S4 at the price points we've seen. Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit on the price, but it sure as hell isn't going to be 60k or anywhere close to what you might have paid for it. I just don't agree with this sort of thing, that's all.

So you are saying car manufacturers are trying to make a profit as any other business? Shocking;) Seriously though....most car manufacturers barely break even on new cars.

[FatalBert]

So you are saying car manufacturers are trying to make a profit as any other business? Shocking;) Seriously though....most car manufacturers barely break even on new cars.

Proof...

[saxon]

Look at it like insurance. Insuring a 500k house is going to cost more than a 200k house right? Well for the same reasons a manufacturer will spend more to mange the risks associated with a higher value product.



.

You are also forgettingthat for every s4 that's sold, twenty Honda civics are sold, and then for every s4 that gets tuned 5+ civics will get tuned. In the end that cheaper car will have more risk

[AQuattro]

You are also forgettingthat for every s4 that's sold, twenty Honda civics are sold

Right, so what? I'm talking about per vehicle risk. The chance of any given Audi or Civic being tuned is probably roughly the same. So the 60k car is going to have more tuning protection ("insurance") than the 20k car.

[NWS4Guy]

Proof...

Perhaps not as much in the US, but the price for an S4 in most other countries would shock the US buyer, and not that is not all due to import tariffs and taxes.

[saxon]

Right, so what? I'm talking about per vehicle risk. The chance of any given Audi or Civic being tuned is probably roughly the same. So the 60k car is going to have more tuning protection ("insurance") than the 20k car.

Your still liking at it add a pretty car basis and not as a "whole"

[mrbubba]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I've a question and this came up in my Google searching

I have a 2010 S4 and it says the ECU is locked, does this mean the ECU has to be removed by the tuner, or has another way been found? Its all new to me and very interesting, my old E90 3 series was a simple OBD flash to stage 1, even did the gearbox flash that way with my tablet

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[whiped]

You can flash through the ODBII port, no need to remove the ECU.

[mrbubba]

You can flash through the ODBII port, no need to remove the ECU.

Hmm that's what I thought, but then read this

What is a ‘locked’ ECU?

From MY2010 VW Audi Group updated the ECU security on certain ECU types. This is an enhanced version of ECU security that has actually been incorporated in Bosch ECU’s since 2005, but has only now been fully activated. It is not currently possible to override this security lock by communicating with the ECU via the OBD2 port. This issue affects all remap/tuning companies. The security can be deactivated (unlocked) if the ECU is removed from the car, opened up and then the communication takes place directly with the board. Once unlocked a special Revo file can be flashed into the ECU either on the bench or through the OBD2 port in the usual manner.

NOTE: Dealers reserve the right to charge a workshop fee for ECU removal and reinstallation.

They are a Revo supplier

https://www.mdmtechnik.co.uk/revo-remap-faqs/

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk