APR v2.2 occasionally going into limp mode

[apexit1]

You have mine. Weather is consistently colder up here so I'll do the map switching test once I notice it every day.

[Arin@APR]

Please send it again. I have to delete my inbox often.

[SwankPeRFection]

Where are we on this guys? Has APR dug up anything as to the cause of this when running the staged flashes as opposed to the stock tune? I'd like an answer for the community so we're all on the same page please. Thanks.

[levigarrett]

Guys, can someone explain to me what "cold start" is? I'm not quite following this thread well because I'm not terribly familiar with some of this stuff. Thanks.

[SwankPeRFection]

Guys, can someone explain to me what "cold start" is? I'm not quite following this thread well because I'm not terribly familiar with some of this stuff. Thanks.

When you start the engine and it's below a certain temperature, it'll idle high for about 30-60 seconds or so before dropping to below 1k RPMs. Watch your car do this the next time you start it in the morning. Start it and wait without revving the motor and you'll see the revs drop down after a bit of time. The engine also opens up the secondary runners as well and this is why the exhaust sounds a bit different too (i.e. slightly louder and raspy.)

[Arin@APR]

When you start the engine and it's below a certain temperature, it'll idle high for about 30-60 seconds or so before dropping to below 1k RPMs. Watch your car do this the next time you start it in the morning. Start it and wait without revving the motor and you'll see the revs drop down after a bit of time. The engine also opens up the secondary runners as well and this is why the exhaust sounds a bit different too (i.e. slightly louder and raspy.)

It closes the intake runner flap, regards the timing, turns on secondary air injection, increases Rpm and does dual injection, wasting fuel and running poorly in an effort to light off the catalyst with excessive EGTs within the time period politicians agreed were necessary to save the earth.

[SwankPeRFection]

It closes the intake runner flap, regards the timing, turns on secondary air injection, increases Rpm and does dual injection, wasting fuel and running poorly in an effort to light off the catalyst with excessive EGTs within the time period politicians agreed were necessary to save the earth.

And it also turns off the Tuned By APR EPC Light.

You kinda walked into that one. Lol


So, what have you found out about what's causing the problem for the users in this thread when running your staged tunes and dealing with colder weather?

[chevelle71]

I also experienced this issue after the starting the car in cold weather. I backed up and EPC light came on. Shut off car and restarted and all was well. This was on 93 tune Stage2

[levigarrett]

Thanks all...I appreciate the response. I kinda figured that's what you guys meant, just interesting to read the particulars.

[Arin@APR]

And it also turns off the Tuned By APR EPC Light.

You kinda walked into that one. Lol


So, what have you found out about what's causing the problem for the users in this thread when running your staged tunes and dealing with colder weather?

Nothing. It doesn't do it on my car, and no customers have reported back on files with cold start enabled.

[SwankPeRFection]

Nothing. It doesn't do it on my car, and no customers have reported back on files with cold start enabled.

So you're saying everyone here that posted in this thread is making stuff up? Come on man... you can't Ostrich this one.

[integroid]

So you're saying everyone here that posted in this thread is making stuff up? Come on man... you can't Ostrich this one.

I believe he was saying the customers that have Cold Start Enabled (OP and others that complained) have not reported back to him if it fixed the CEL. I am guessing he sent them or their dealer a file with Cold Start enabled.

[Arin@APR]

I believe he was saying the customers that have Cold Start Enabled (OP and others that complained) have not reported back to him if it fixed the CEL. I am guessing he sent them or their dealer a file with Cold Start enabled.

Correct.

[SwankPeRFection]

Cool, so we're just waiting on the folks in here that posted about the problem to report back after they were put back on a standard staged setup. They probably haven't said anything because it's fixed. These people were running into the issue almost weekly.

Perhaps a request for their respective dealers to call them up or for you to email them (since they emailed you about it first) to touch base and find out if it's all cleared up would be in order. I'll try and PM the folks here and see what's up.

[adbender]

Still havent got around to getting reflashed with cold start enabled. will definitely report back when I do.

[Arin@APR]

Thank you!

[paul]

Arin, no luck. Newest version still going into limp / EPC light on cold start up.

[helix139]

Arin, no luck. Newest version still going into limp / EPC light on cold start up.

You mean cold start being removed wasn't the problem? Who would have thought! Gee, I guess Arin was right and Swank was wrong.

[drob23]

Can anyone comment on this CEL with cold start *enabled*? Assuming this has fixed everyone's problem since this thread seems to have died down...

[schirm]

Can anyone comment on this CEL with cold start *enabled*? Assuming this has fixed everyone's problem since this thread seems to have died down...

I do not know if this fixed anyone's problem. If you look at the comment 3 posts above yours, someone mentioned that they are still having issues.

[drob23]

I do not know if this fixed anyone's problem. If you look at the comment 3 posts above yours, someone mentioned that they are still having issues.

Guess I'm kind of confused about whether 2.2 eliminates cold start vs 2.1 etc. Would like to know if I get stg2 flashed APR with most recent version and appropriate cold start routine - I don't get a CEL.

[apexit1]

So past 2 days it's been in the 20's at night and in the morning I get an imediate EPC light as soon as the car turns on. A few weeks back I switched to the stock map for a week or so and still got it. Not so sure its even the APR tune. Any Giac, Revo, or stock guys experiencing this?

[Arin@APR]

Cold start had nothing to do with it. I just had a report from a customer getting cold start reenabled - nothing changed. Looking into it further at the moment.

[Arin@APR]

So past 2 days it's been in the 20's at night and in the morning I get an imediate EPC light as soon as the car turns on. A few weeks back I switched to the stock map for a week or so and still got it. Not so sure its even the APR tune. Any Giac, Revo, or stock guys experiencing this?

You're now getting this in the stock map too?

[schirm]

So past 2 days it's been in the 20's at night and in the morning I get an imediate EPC light as soon as the car turns on. A few weeks back I switched to the stock map for a week or so and still got it. Not so sure its even the APR tune. Any Giac, Revo, or stock guys experiencing this?

Interesting, Time to change the title of this thread!

[apexit1]

yea i can try and make a video one morning switching to stock map and then turning it on. Of course with my luck nothing will happen

[Deckdout2]

Arin, no luck. Newest version still going into limp / EPC light on cold start up.

I'm still having this issue now that it's getting colder. I'm not sure if Cold Start is or is not enabled on my ECU, but if I don't sit there for at least a min to let the RPM's drop and try to just go, then it will jump into limp mode with EPC light.

[SwankPeRFection]

I'm still having this issue now that it's getting colder. I'm not sure if Cold Start is or is not enabled on my ECU, but if I don't sit there for at least a min to let the RPM's drop and try to just go, then it will jump into limp mode with EPC light.

Something is up with that process. I view the "cold start routine" as what you just described. Everything as a whole... the secondary runners opening up, the higher idle RPMs, the primary O2 sensors trying to warm up to register a proper Air/Fuel ratio read in closed loop once you start moving. If APR's cold start disable only kept the secondary runners from opening, then it may not be just that. I was under the impression that when you cranked up an APR car with cold start disabled, the RPMs don't sit high, they just drop to 700-800 and sit as normal. Maybe I misunderstood this based on what you just wrong. Everyone seems to describe things differently for some reason.

Anyway, something is going on that's in some way related to this normal routine the ECU expects to see from the car during a cold start. A parameter is not met and the car throws a light and a fit, thinking something is wrong.

[staticuxo]

i'm very curious about this as i recently traded in my B8 for a B8.5 and will be looking to go stage 2 in the near future.

[Arin@APR]

Something is up with that process. I view the "cold start routine" as what you just described. Everything as a whole... the secondary runners opening up, the higher idle RPMs, the primary O2 sensors trying to warm up to register a proper Air/Fuel ratio read in closed loop once you start moving. If APR's cold start disable only kept the secondary runners from opening, then it may not be just that. I was under the impression that when you cranked up an APR car with cold start disabled, the RPMs don't sit high, they just drop to 700-800 and sit as normal. Maybe I misunderstood this based on what you just wrong. Everyone seems to describe things differently for some reason.

Anyway, something is going on that's in some way related to this normal routine the ECU expects to see from the car during a cold start. A parameter is not met and the car throws a light and a fit, thinking something is wrong.

Cold start disabled is just that, completely disabled. The car starts and idles just the same as it would if the car was warm.

You were blaming the cold start delete for the problem, so I had it turned back on.

Result?

No difference.

Here's a good explination of what Cold Start is:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post8577536

The cold start feature you are refering to is catalyst heating. It involves a high idle speed setpoint and a very late ignition angle to put all the energy out the exhaust to light of the cat as soon as possible in the emission test. The late ignition angle is why the engine is running so crappy and also the reason being so loud. It's around 20s because that is the time the car is idleing in the FTP75 emission test before the driving part begins ;)
Turning it off has no negative side effects and should improve fuel mileage a bit because with the late ignition angle the engine runs with very poor efficiency.

[SwankPeRFection]

Cold start disabled is just that, completely disabled. The car starts and idles just the same as it would if the car was warm.

You were blaming the cold start delete for the problem, so I had it turned back on.

Result?

No difference.

Here's a good explination of what Cold Start is:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post8577536

OK, so it is the full routine that was turned off. That's what I thought. Well, everyone that had the problem had cold start disabled, but not everyone with cold start disabled had the problem. So, I thought we agreed a couple of pages ago that the next step would be for those people to provide you scans and also to change them back to re-enable cold start routine and see what happened. The only way they could re-enable cold start themselves was going back to stock calibration via switching, but that removed both variables (the cold start disable AND the staged calibrations). Now that you've given them a 2.2 with cold start reenabled, they're still having issues, so what else is changed in 2.2? Or did you give them a manually changed 2.2 with cold start reenabled or just put them back to 2.1? If it was an edited 2.2, maybe move them back to 2.1 to see if the problem goes away unless you can pinpoint to another calibration change in 2.2 that was done other than cold start that could in one way shape or form cause this issue.

It would probably also be a good idea for those with this problem to list their intake/exhaust mods as well just in case it's something wacky with a combination of parts and your tune that's doing this.

[apexit1]

swank, easy to say just re flash this reflash that. half hour of labor at my shop is 50 never mind the time. Took me like 4 weeks just to find the time to go. I'd prefer something more scientific rather than shooting the dark.

[SwankPeRFection]

swank, easy to say just re flash this reflash that. half hour of labor at my shop is 50 never mind the time. Took me like 4 weeks just to find the time to go. I'd prefer something more scientific rather than shooting the dark.

The shouldn't be charging you for doing all this. It should be on their or APR's dime. They can keep track of it, but until they can prove that it's not their tune, I wouldn't charge you. You flat out said it doesn't happen on stock tune or calibration. WTF else can it be. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, but whatever. Arin's "searching" for an answer but he's been doing that for a while and still nothing yet. I'm making conversation... not like he's going to follow what I said anyway. Remember, I'm the guy shooting in the dark and not knowing what I'm talking about.


All I know is this... there's a reason why I haven't flashed my car with anything yet. The last car I had was flashed at 10k miles and I sold it at over 100k miles. For all those miles, not a single peep out of it. Engine was strong, no bullshit CELs about anything and it was trouble-free. It seems around here not everyone with OTS flashes for anyone is CEL or EPC light free 100% of the time for years on end. That's all...

[Arin@APR]

You flat out said it doesn't happen on stock tune or calibration.

He said he can repeat it on the stock tune.

Arin's "searching" for an answer but he's been doing that for a while and still nothing yet.

Actually, I haven't. I was waiting to hear back from people.

[saxon]

I tthink Arinn is doing the right thing and truly trying to fix this

What I think part of the problem is the fact the customer had to pay for flash back to stock or a modified file....

Apr is supposed to be the King of audi so make a solution that allows customers to have control, even if it's not a full tuning suite allow some end user adjustability or power to flash back to stock

[Arin@APR]

I guess I should have stuck with my first response on page one.

All I can say is I hate when people speculate so much.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...into-limp-mode

[paul]

yea i can try and make a video one morning switching to stock map and then turning it on. Of course with my luck nothing will happen

stock map on a flashed ECU is likely not the same as a reflash to stock. I went back to stock for 3 weeks in cool weather and had no issues. The first cold start (parked in work garage in ~40-45* weather all day and instant EPC. Going to reflash to stock when I get a chance and try to repeat but I'd wager good money it won't happen on a reflash to stock.

[apexit1]

Arin INSISTS it's the very same map audi gives your specific car. They save it to their data base before the flash is even loaded to the car.

[paul]

Not saying that the map is different, but the content on the ECU differs... 1 program vs 3-4 programs. I'm speculating of course but I haven't ever tripped this code until I flashed first with 2.1, then with the cold start delete 2.2, and now the cold start re-enabled 2.2.

[apexit1]

When Arin and I first got in touch I looked at my post history. I think it was like march '12 that I made the first mention of EPC on the forums. Started off happening occassionally and slowly got to where I am now, I can count on there being a light when I start the car.