1.8 Cam index / alignment marks

[Bruch]

2001 A4 AWM engine.

Hello,
Maybe I'm overthinking this, so bear with me for a minute. I bought this car as a known engine sludge victim, for a reasonable price.
Top end was making a horrible racket, so I pulled the oil pan, cleaned every surface and tube of the dreaded sludge. Replaced oil pump and turbo CHRA.

Did a complete timing belt service, filled with 5W-20 Mobil one and cranked with no plugs in until I got oil at the turbo. Fired it up.

Lots of lifter noise but it quieted down after a couple minutes, except for what sounds like one last dead lifter (or cam follower if you like to call it that).

Here's my concern: I'm getting a MIL (117748/P1340/004928 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incor. Correlation ). Reading the Ross Tech Wiki and numerous posts, I see that I may have the timing belt off by a tooth. That's possible, but I think more likely the screen at the cam chain tensioner is plugged. I was going to remove it and clean it when I was doing the belt, but balked when I saw that I'd have to pull the cams. I basically wanted to get it back together to start it up and see if the new oil pump and cleaning fixed the noise.

The reason for this post concerns the notches on the cams on the tensioner end. The Bentley talks about having 16 chain links between the notches. When the engine is at TDC, those notches are not even visible! The cam sprocket is keyed to the cam, so what could be wrong? The engine runs fine except for the ticking. Am I mis-reading something, or what?

Please reassure me that I don't have this thing 180 out of time.

I can clarify if this doesn't make any sense. I'm a bit frazzled.

Thanks
Bruch

[Caffeinated]

What do you mean you can't see the notches? They should be visible.

That code is classic for being out of time.

Check what your timing retard is @ idle via vagcom

[Bruch]

With the timing belt sprocket at the TDC mark, the notches on the other end of the cams are at approx 4 o'clock. A big WTF moment for me.

I was scrolling through the blocks in vag com and noticed ignition timing, but I will look for cam timing tonight. What value should it be at idle? zero degrees I would guess.

[redline380]

I believe your cam timing will not be at zero. the vvt either advances it or retards cam timing on start up for emissions.

what we need is for you to set the engine at TDC best you can (for sure crank and cam gear) and take photos of all four timing marks. crank mark, cam gear mark, and both cam timing marks.

the cam marks are viewed through the cam caps, and look like this. did you remove the cams at all?

[walky_talky20]

1st of all: 5W-20? OMG. Let's just run water in it, shall we? I mean...srsly. Get some Rotella in that thing like...MEOW.

b: I agree with redline. Get us some photos so can collectively freak out about it. You know...together.

III: Block 090-ish should give you cam phase angle and VVT stuff. But don't you dare turn the key again if your timing marks don't line up. *Shivers!*

Four: This is what the cams should look like at TDC:



And this is what your crank should look like:



There is a *possibility* that your crank mark is not accurate due to rubber twist in the pulley. To be certain your actually seeing TDC, you can put a screwdriver down the cylinder 1 plug hole to watch the piston position as you rotate the engine. You are of course looking for the exact peak position. If you have the pulley removed, TDC looks like this:



That, too can be inaccurate, but only if the crank keyway is shearing off. Yikes!

[Bruch]

Wow guys, awesome responses. this is a great forum indeed.
I must have used all my patience at work today. I was ready to smash my camera a while ago. It takes longer to take decent pictures, get them on the laptop from the iPad, then figure out how to add to post. I think I spent less time tearing the car apart again to expose the marks. Looks like I need to move to an image hosting site, then copy in the url into the post. Anyway, I will deal with that tomorrow.

[Bruch]

Three pictures, crank at TDC mark, Cam at TDC mark, not notches visible at tensioner end of cams. When I pulled the balancer pulley, I put a paint mark on crank sprocket to mark TDC. When I put the pulley back on, I was careful to make sure the puller was on the nib. The timing is set as it was when I took it apart, and It had not been apart in a long while.

[Bruch]

Here's the rear cam marks when the cam pulley front mark is at 5:00 and crank rotated one turn back to TDC. I never had the cams out or removed the front pulley or seals.



cam timing mark is down.

[walky_talky20]

Dude...Dude. That's messed up.

Here is what I would do:
- Turn to TDC (as shown by rear of exhaust cam)
- Loosen the cam sprocket bolt (just break it loose, don't remove it)
- Recompress the hydro tensioner on the car at it's current position, reinstall holding plate.
- Unlock the tensioner roller adjustment nut to get some slack on the belt
- Remove the cam sprocket
- See WTF is going on there.

[Bruch]

Sounds like a plan. If the key is in its ways on both the cam and sprocket, well then that's where it stays.

Just for the record, the 5W-20 is my last step in the sludge cleaning process, sort of a final wash. I've got some normal viscosity synthetic to change it to before I put it on the road.

I'll see if I can wiggle the chain tensioner out of there for an inspection without removing the exhaust cam. I'm sure the little screen is plugged, the oil pump pickup was 80% blocked.

Looking at my sig, you can see this is my first 4 banger (not counting the Scirrocco way back when). Its been interesting to say the least.

Thanks for all the input.

[redline380]

i agree with walky. you're gonna need to take that cam gear off and check out if it has been sheared. this is a pretty messed up situation you have here

is it just me or did i only count 15 links between timing marks? i'm totally surprised this thing runs at all

[Bruch]

Ha. Here's someone asking (mostly) the same question as me. Typically, there is no "resolution".

2004-audi-a4-1-8-turbo-awm-jumped-cam-timing

Seriously, my engine seems to run just fine. Rotates freely with the plugs out. I have one tap-tap and the MIL. I definitely need to confirm the big sprocket is still keyed to the exhaust cam, that's for sure. Been doing this for 40 years (yes, that makes me an old fart) and I have learned that nothing is impossible / can't happen.

Redline, you just have a parallax view because of my weak camera skills, there are 16 links between.

[redline380]

well maybe us young guns can teach the old dogs new tricks

this thing shouldnt run with the timing like that. the tap-tap you have could be valve contact. how sure are you there is 16 links? the timing can get pretty funny, but i think you mentioned you are going off a bentley manual which instructs pretty clearly that you kind of have to jump the ount one link over in some instances.

if you plan on keeping and running this car, i would highly recommend removing the head and having the valves checked to see if they are bent. bring it in the machine shop, tell them to take the cams out, retime the head, check the valves and go off of that.

if you dont want spend the money or the time, remove the cam gear, check if the key sheared, and re set the timing so its good to go.

[Artiemas]

Couldn't he just do a compression check?

Is a video possible, OP? The fact thatr you say it's a "tap tap" and not a "tick tick" makes me curious. Tap tap would probably be a bent valve somewhere. Does it get louder and faster with RPMS?
Lifter tick would disappear as your oil pressure would go up with the increase in revolutions, thus eliminating any lifter "tick"

[Bruch]

Thanks for joining the fray Atriemas. A compression check would surely clear up any question of bent valves and such. I'm half expecting to see a sheared off key on the cam sprocket tonight. I might even skip dinner and get right to it when I get home. This sitting in a cubicle all day is for the birds.

The tap-tap sounds like you would expect a stuck lifter to sound, faster with RPMs, but never going away completely. When I pulled the car in to the garage, the top end was starving for oil and all the lifters clattered. I started the car after all my work and in a few minutes I was only hearing one. I should be able to identify which one is clacking with a feeler gage.

[Bruch]

Hey, you want video, I got video. Fingers crossed it runs for you.




I'm a big fan of my yellow paint marker....

[Artiemas]

Sounds like a dead, dead lifter. I mean, my car has that slight diesel sound, but no CCT rattle or anything on cold starts. Before we start throwing around expensive parts and claiming bent valves all over the place, do your compression check, and switch that ugly oil. Go with Rotella T6. You can find it in some Autozones and some Walmarts. if you see 3 jugs, buy three jugs. It's hard to find sometimes. I literally have 8 jugs of it in my garage.
If you're curious on an oil filter, go with the MANN one from the dealer (decent price) or go to autozone and get the oversized Mobile 1 filter. M1301 is the number for it.

The bent valve would be more a loud tap, like clicking your finger nails on your glass coffee table or something. AskmehowIknow. Bought my car with 30 bent valves. That was a symphony.

But back to your whole timing issue - shit looks whack.

And as for identifying your dead lifter, good luck. These cars have 5 valves a cylinder. The v6 is a 30v, the I4 is a 20v. Weird, I know. But hey, can't complain. Dat MPG. If you're looking to replace that lifter, I would just replace them all. But if you can narrow it down, and want to just do one, be my guest, as that's what I would do. 2lazy.

[Bruch]

OK, here's a definitive answer to why shit looks whack.

SO who sez you can't shear the key off the cam sprocket. Gonna throw another sprocket on there, get it all in time do the compression test. No more need for speculation at this point.



PS, I buy Mann filters by the case - oil air cabin. Been a German Auto Parts fan for years.

[redline380]

Holy shit! Totally surprised it runs yet. Definitely check for bent valves

[walky_talky20]

So the big queston is:

How does it end up approx. 180 degrees out and not bend any valves on it's way there?

It's actually not possible, that's how. It would literally have to go through every degree of wrong timing to end up there. The only way this could have happened is if somebody took the timing equipment apart (perhaps took it apart at 180 out), then reassembled it - jamming the cam sprocket on at the TDC position.

The only other possibility I see is the keyway shearing and bending all the valves, then it happens to stop at ~180 out. Then somebody *fixes* all the bent valves, and leaves the sprocket as-is, never taking it off the camshaft. Due to it being very close to 180 out, there is no valve contact, and the car actually runs "ok", but with codes.

It's really anybody's guess because it was purchased broken.

[BirdTurbo]

Oh man, oh man, I have the same sound. So if the sound still persist after the oil pump removal and new one in; it is the lifters?

[Bruch]

Isn't this fun? I can tell you that the shearing of the key happened while I was trying to drive the car home. Obviously should have paid for a tow. It would run quiet when cold, but start the clacking when warm to hot.

How's this for a Columbo theory? Motor heats up, top end is starving for oil, lifters are collapsing from low oil pressure.
Cam bearings heat up, cam starts to seize, key get sheared off and sprocket spins half a turn. Lifters are collapsed from low oil pressure so only one valve gets whacked, the one we hear in the video.

Anybody buy this?

BTW Redline "well maybe us young guns can teach the old dogs new tricks " - I'm counting on that!

I'm a software developer by day, and if I couldn't learn new tricks, I'd be out of a job.

[Bruch]

Bird: Another possible culprit would the cam chain tensioner sludged up allowing the cam chain to slap around.

[walky_talky20]

If that happened while driving it, that's like a 1 in a million that it still runs. It would have had to shear at *just* the right time, for the crank to make a complete revolution without bending everything. And then it had to stop at just the right spot for the thing to still run. *Amazing*

A lot of times what happens on the cam-lockup scenario is that the t-belt snaps. People who ignore their oil changes and oil pressure warnings also ignore their timing belts, so the belt is usually almost ready to snap on it's own. Add a cam that's trying to sieze and the belt snaps long before the keyway will shear.

I don't know how, but you got really lucky.

[BirdTurbo]

Bruch, your next post clearly describes my situation, no sound when cold but when hot, comes the noise. Hopefully I do not end up in your situation after the mentioned items are replaced.


This has been going on for three years, I was told by mechanic who is a member here that the noise is the new head being well you all know. The noise however continued months after the job...........

[Artiemas]

Hah. Haha. I've never heard of this happening and you might as well have a better chance finding a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow with a unicorn headbutting the sasquatch.

Anyways...Well then.

On to your next problem, I suppose...I don't even know if you have it, actually. How your CCT sound on start up? I know it's a little irrelevant as of now due to your oil, but does it rattle on start-up, then go quiet?

And before we start making this puppy a DD again, I might as well say to you that you should check your CCT gasket, half moon, Cam plug, and Cam hollow plug (I don't even know the proper name, sorry.) Oh, and dat VCG. It's be a bummer to start driving it and then see you have a oil leak. I'm pretty sure you, and everyone else, including me, would just say "Eff dat, I just spent so much time, I'm going to drive."

But, just be glad you don't have a V6. When those gaskets go, smoke pours out from under your hood. I had some guy scream at me like I didn't know what was happening to my car. 'You're overheating, asshole! Fix it." Blah blah blah. Go home.

[redline380]

How's this for a Columbo theory? Motor heats up, top end is starving for oil, lifters are collapsing from low oil pressure.
Cam bearings heat up, cam starts to seize, key get sheared off and sprocket spins half a turn. Lifters are collapsed from low oil pressure so only one valve gets whacked, the one we hear in the video.

the odds of this happening are miniscual. so small in fact that i dont believe it. there is a more reasonable and realistic explanation as to how your cam gear got the way it did, and i'm guessing human interaction had something to do with it. i stand by what i said earlier. remove the head and have the valves checked.

make sure to remove the cams and inspect the journals. my guess is youll be looking for a different head. if you need a head, you can have this thing back on the road with $300 and a days work

[Artiemas]

Yeah, at this point, especially if you have a bad valve, lifter, journal, etc. Id look for a new head. Kill several birds with one stone. What redline is saying is probably the more logical, easy thing to do. The oil starved head may be "good", but you've more than likely gotten the head pretty ugly. It really all depends on how this damage plays out

[Bruch]

Agree with both you guys. My next step while waiting for the replacement sprocket is to remove the cams and inspect the journals and head. Any sign of "ugly" and I'll be looking for a replacement head. I'm not assuming anything, inspection will reveal the truth. I'm sure I have at least one bent valve, that's just being realistic.

Redline, where are you getting the $300 you mention? That would be a sweet resolution to this, for sure. I have not priced a used head, but I have seen the gasket set is around $100 itself?

The machine shop I trust gets $600 to refurbish a 1.8 head.

[redline380]

Redline, where are you getting the $300 you mention? That would be a sweet resolution to this, for sure. I have not priced a used head, but I have seen the gasket set is around $100 itself?

you can find a small port head for $100. keep in mind, you'll be able to use any 1.8t head other than one off a 97-00 a4. this means any vw 1.8t as well. there are a ton out there. you could still use a 00 head, but youd need to swap over the cct because you need vvt, unless you want to resistor it out. like I said though, any vw 1.8t head will work. this means transverse as well. gti's, Jetta's, golf's, Passat's. just hit up junkyards or vwvortex classified sections to look for a used head. for gaskets, youd need head and intake mani, vc, and id recommend changing the cct gasket as well. that along with some shop charges, and it would easily be done for less than $300 in the right circumstances.

call this guy and offer $150. see what happens http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/pts/4014022026.html

may need valves but the price is right http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...=cylinder+head

probably good head http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...=cylinder+head

catbed is member on here http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...highlight=head

[Bruch]

I'm on it, thanks. The first one is fairly close.

BTW, what the significance of the "small port" terminology?

[redline380]

I'm on it, thanks. The first one is fairly close.

BTW, what the significance of the "small port" terminology?

big port head- only available in the US as the cylinder head from an AEB engine. the ports are physically larger than all other 1.8t cylinder heads and are generally used by big turbo guys as to induce higher amounts of air. also, these heads only came stock with non-vvt cam chain tensioners, but vvt tensioners can be used in them. I myself run a AEB head with vvt on my AUG block (06a style out of an '01 Passat) in my '01 a4

small port- cylinder heads available on all other US 1.8ts, vw and audi alike. there were no transverse 1.8ts that came with big port heads, only the small port. the only vw available with big port heads was 97-99 passats, which are more closely related to audi a4's anyways. they had AEB engines in them

my opinion is talk to catbed about his AWM head.

[Bruch]

Thank you for the education, really.
Well, I saw all the ugly I needed to see tonight, pulling the cam bearing caps off. I have no problem getting another head now.

I'll see if I can PM the catbed.

Enjoy the picture of the carnage, it looks like the front exhaust bearing was seizing, big time.

[redline380]

Ewwwwww....

[thenj3]

when those pick up screen clogs, usually the first things to go are cam bearings. i should have suggested that before. if you'd be interested in a fully built head i'd be willing to sell mine.

nvm just saw you have an 01 wouldn't be a straight bolt in job.

[catbed]

PM responded. I'm sure we can work something out.

[Caffeinated]

Ouch. I would definitely just find a small port head and be done. Just get it hot tanked and pressure tested by the machine shop, making sure it's not leaking crazy out of any guides, and pop that baby on. If it's intact, likely no need to touch any cam timing, and you'll be on your way in no time.

[walky_talky20]

And another poor 1.8T head bites the dust. It's a shame Audi didn't make these with 2-piece oil pans for easy ~30k pickup screen service intervals. Would have saved a whole bunch of trouble. I can't believe none of these aftermarket vendors have gone after that.

[Bruch]

Anyone have a picture of the special valve spring compressor tool in use? I've been using a C-clamp style one forever and through the years just keep making different deep adapters to fit over the spring cap. I'm having a hard time imagining how the one listed here works.
http://www.zelenda.com/VW/EngineTools3.html

I don't mind buying special tools, but I enjoy making them even more.

Speaking of 2-piece oil pans, that's the first thing my machinist friend said: "We need to weld a trap door on that pan." I think the problem is, that most owners feel they only need to de-sludge one time. Might be tough to sell it. Plus that pickup screen was pretty tough to clean, I think the entire sump - front half- would have to come off to be able to really clean the pickup screen.

[Artiemas]

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...blizzard/page4

This is walky's "guide" on how he did his valves. Probably the same style you're talking about. The one you're talking about kind've users a lever action and it goes on either side of the head, IIRC>