2013 Steering Issues VAG COM Fix?

**NPuter** · 04-03-2013 01:15 PM

whoa, good job guys! I cannot believe the fix was that simple!
thedollardoctor stayed persistent with searching for the root of this slippage problem. Personally, I had little faith that a vag com fix would be found, and I though he was wasting his time looking for one. I'm glad that I was wrong. This steering issue kept me away from ever considering a B8.5.... I am so glad that there is a simple fix.
If anybody is in Miami, and would like me to make this change for you, PM me.

**B8_Jim** · 04-03-2013 01:16 PM

First off - kudos to the$dr and TOMASZ for this. Knock on wood - my S5 isn't affected by this yet, but if it occurs it seems like I have a likely work-around.

Originally Posted by drob23

I'm sure that Audi knows what the problem is, and doubt that someone checking a box in VAGCOM somehow goes over there head. There are probably 5-10 incredibly capable engineers who worked on/implemented this system on the car. They paid a lot of money to Continental for this feature, so Audi's fix will try to keep this working, and if nothing else can be done, they'll scrap it (but this would result in probably 4 guys losing their jobs).

Still seems like they could have the dealers disable this "driver steering recommendation" for customers that complain while they work on the permanent software fix. It would improve the customers ownership experience in the interim, and it would be nearly zero additional labor - surely they are hooking up and checking for DTC's from anyone that complains about bad steering - how much extra effort would it take for VAS to flip a bit? The new SW would have been installed either way for customers that complain, and for cars that do get this disabled - it can be re-enabled as part of the new SW flash.

Leaving a bunch of cars on the road that you "can't drive straight" can't be doing Audi any good.

**thedollardoctor** · 04-03-2013 01:20 PM

When I talked to my service manager this morning about it, he said he was going to talk to the head tech about giving this a shot with other cars that come in complaining of this issue while they wait for a permanent solution from Audi directly. He was VERY grateful that I called to report my findings with this.

**NPuter** · 04-03-2013 01:23 PM

This seems to be a huge oversight by Audi...

**afig367** · 04-03-2013 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by NPuter

This seems to be a huge oversight by Audi...

Agreed. What would be interesting is whether the new cars rolling off the assembly line still have this running (i.e., Audi continues to ship cars that will develop the problem). My guess is they are.

They need a culture change like Ford. In the Bill Ford era, bad cars continued to roll off the assembly line, and Ford just said, "We'll fix it under warranty." Alan Mulally, whose experience from Boeing is that flawed designs fall from the sky and kill people, basically said, "No, you stop the assembly line and you fix the problem."

I don't believe Audi's engineers are stupid, but I do believe the company has a cultural problem. This is a failure by Audi in every respect.

**afig367** · 04-03-2013 02:01 PM

Of course..... I get off the phone with Audi Customer Relations today (following up on my 5,000mi service two weeks ago). I had asked for a follow-up simply to register another complaint about the steering.

Response: "No ETA on a software fix."

The ass doesn't talk to the hands - anywhere - at Audi.

**drob23** · 04-03-2013 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by B8_Jim

First off - kudos to the$dr and TOMASZ for this. Knock on wood - my S5 isn't affected by this yet, but if it occurs it seems like I have a likely work-around.

Still seems like they could have the dealers disable this "driver steering recommendation" for customers that complain while they work on the permanent software fix. It would improve the customers ownership experience in the interim, and it would be nearly zero additional labor - surely they are hooking up and checking for DTC's from anyone that complains about bad steering - how much extra effort would it take for VAS to flip a bit? The new SW would have been installed either way for customers that complain, and for cars that do get this disabled - it can be re-enabled as part of the new SW flash.

Leaving a bunch of cars on the road that you "can't drive straight" can't be doing Audi any good.

It's probably one of those things where by issuing a service bulletin, they are more or less admitting to the world that their steering is f'd and they have a half assed fix (not demeaning the value of this fix found by dollardocter, just saying it's band aidish". When they do finally fix this, there will be some formal recall issued and they will take a PR hit. Best move right now is to attack them through PR channels like facebook etc. I don't disagree with you, and if I was experiencing this problem I'd flip the bit in vagcom yesterday.

**VR2V8** · 04-03-2013 02:56 PM

I just bookmarked this thread in the event that I ever start to experience steering issues. This is one of those threads that is so invaluable that it's not something you want to lose.

From reading the other responses, it is obvious that everyone knows how much work was put into finding this workaround. It's nice to see people genuinely grateful for information, which is why I came here in the first place.

Although I haven't yet experienced this issue, it's still nice to know an answer is here if I ever need to apply it. To everyone that had a part in figuring this out, I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I can't thank you enough.

Oh, and I'll keep my fingers crossed hoping this workaround continues to hold.

**zee007** · 04-03-2013 05:49 PM

My steering was never really that bad (and I have a very early allroad - delivery in July of last year), but I made the change last night and I feel like I'm driving a new car! The drive to and from the office today (45 mins each way - mixed roads), was fantastic.

Superb find - kudos to you guys! Thank you.

**Mr. Three** · 04-03-2013 05:55 PM

in for later....

**visualguy** · 04-03-2013 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by drob23

My educated guess - This feature from Conti was not well designed to handle sensor errors (whether they be drift, bias, dead-zone etc) and there was a bad batch of sensors (seem to go bad quickly).

I wonder where all the sensors which participate in the DSR feature are located. They may be spread out - not all in the steering rack...

All this over-engineering with numerous pieces of electronics really makes me wonder about the durability of these cars in the long run - so many things that can, and most likely will, go wrong sooner or later!

Anyway, the workaround of disabling DSR is a good and helpful contribution!

**afig367** · 04-04-2013 05:05 AM

Perhaps a stupid question, but is a VAG COM a VAG COM, or do you need a new one to work on a 2013?

My coworker got one with this 2007 S8 (he's only in once a week so we haven't tried it yet).... just wondering whether it should work, or whether I'll have to find someone else.

**VR2V8** · 04-04-2013 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by afig367

Perhaps a stupid question, but is a VAG COM a VAG COM, or do you need a new one to work on a 2013?

My coworker got one with this 2007 S8 (he's only in once a week so we haven't tried it yet).... just wondering whether it should work, or whether I'll have to find someone else.

My Ross-Tech VAG-COM is a HEX-USB +CAN. It works with my 2013 and also worked with my 2010 S5 and my 2008 S4. My previous HEX-COM did not work with any of my Audi's. It needs the +CAN part to communicate on the CAN-BUS. I'm not familiar with the S8 platform, but if it's CAN-BUS you'd need a +CAN device.

**caphie** · 04-04-2013 06:39 AM

Hopefully I didn't miss it in the thread, but are the cars experiencing this steering issue just 2013 models or all B8s?

I have not noticed this issue in my 2011, but I want to disable this "feature" on principal, alone.

**Wilbur** · 04-04-2013 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by drob23

It's probably one of those things where by issuing a service bulletin, they are more or less admitting to the world that their steering is f'd and they have a half assed fix (not demeaning the value of this fix found by dollardocter, just saying it's band aidish". When they do finally fix this, there will be some formal recall issued and they will take a PR hit. Best move right now is to attack them through PR channels like facebook etc. I don't disagree with you, and if I was experiencing this problem I'd flip the bit in vagcom yesterday.

Nice attitude...and good luck with that. You must have a lot of time on your hands. If you are successful in your massive attack Audi will take a massive hit and the resale value of your car will be a fraction of what it is now. Good plan. They will fix it. Thanks for your help $Doctor.

**NPuter** · 04-04-2013 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by caphie

Hopefully I didn't miss it in the thread, but are the cars experiencing this steering issue just 2013 models or all B8s?

I have not noticed this issue in my 2011, but I want to disable this "feature" on principal, alone.

Tis "feature" is only enabled on 2013s, which have electric steering. Pre 2013s don't have electric steering.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

**snagitseven** · 04-04-2013 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by NPuter

Tis "feature" is only enabled on 2013s, which have electric steering. Pre 2013s don't have electric steering.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I realize this is the B8/S4 forum but for others visiting, I would add that besides 2013 B8 models, other Audi models i.e. all 2012-13 C7 A6/S6/A7/S7 (2011+ ROW) also have electric steering, many with the same issues as reported here.

**thedollardoctor** · 04-04-2013 07:38 AM

Good point! In fact I thought about posting this thread in the other forums as well. May do that on my lunch break today.

**BzzzBom** · 04-04-2013 07:56 AM

$Dr I shared your findings with the folks at Eurocode. They are going to be doing the Vag Com on their B8.5s -- Great find!!

**thedollardoctor** · 04-04-2013 08:11 AM

Bzzz, that's excellent!

All credit for this is owed to Tomasz as he was the one who took the first bold steps into making this change and giving it a shot! I was thinking adjustments to "learned steering assist behaviors" was what was needed. But after he and I discussed things I decided to give this a shot first and see how it went. I just decided to be the messenger for this find that Tomasz made as I knew it would be a God-send to so many of us who have struggled with these steering issues!

As always I am happy to help out the community in any way I can and I was dedicated as Tomasz was to finding any possible fix for this! I'm so glad we finally have something that works and don't have to sit around on our thumbs waiting for Audi to figure this out!

**adbender** · 04-04-2013 09:51 AM

very nice work guys...going to try this on my buddy's new 2013.

**drob23** · 04-04-2013 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Wilbur

Nice attitude...and good luck with that. You must have a lot of time on your hands. If you are successful in your massive attack Audi will take a massive hit and the resale value of your car will be a fraction of what it is now. Good plan. They will fix it. Thanks for your help $Doctor.

Lol ok buddy...

**mcoomer** · 04-04-2013 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by lapisia

That's a terrible feature. Why would anyone who needs that kind of assist be driving a S4 in the first place anyway? Achilieas may be right, this is seriously a case of overengineering.

Audi and VW may have missed with their implementation, but I wouldn't be too upset with them trying to add the "nudge" as an alert to the driver. There is a precedent for this. Commercial airplanes come with "stick shakers" that cause the control column to vibrate as an alert to the pilot that airspeed is decreasing to the point a stall is possible. If done correctly, maybe an audible cue or a prompt on the dash, I can see where a notification that your car is on the edge of stability could be a good thing. If they made the wheel vibrate, like the "stick shaker", I'd be OK with it. Having the car turn the wheel itself as a prompt? Not so much. Think I'll uncheck this box. Haven't noticed it yet but don't think I want to either.

Mike

**snagitseven** · 04-04-2013 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by thedollardoctor

Good point! In fact I thought about posting this thread in the other forums as well. May do that on my lunch break today.

I already linked your thread here over at the AudiWorld A6 Forum.

**thedollardoctor** · 04-04-2013 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by snagitseven

I already linked your thread here over at the AudiWorld A6 Forum.

Right on! Good thinking!

I went ahead and created a similar thread in each of the relevent sections of this site as well on my lunch break. Hopefully word will spread and everyone with the steering issue will start to enjoy their cars more until Audi can come out with a final repair.

**achilleas101** · 04-04-2013 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by thedollardoctor

Right on! Good thinking!

I went ahead and created a similar thread in each of the relevent sections of this site as well on my lunch break. Hopefully word will spread and everyone with the steering issue will start to enjoy their cars more until Audi can come out with a final repair.

and hopefully have more people who suffer this problem serve as a bigger sample size to help us determine if this fix does the trick, or if it doesn't work for some.

**snagitseven** · 04-04-2013 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by achilleas101

and hopefully have more people who suffer this problem serve as a bigger sample size to help us determine if this fix does the trick, or if it doesn't work for some.

Or if there are any longer term, unpleasant side effect from unchecking that box. That's the only thing that gives me pause from making the change. My off-center wandering issue is pretty moderate compared to others I've read so I'm still hemming and hawing a bit....

**thedollardoctor** · 04-04-2013 01:32 PM

I can understand why you might have concerns, though based on the description of the "purpose" of this system, I can't see any adverse effects of having it disabled. Just like I honestly would feel fine driving my car at all times with the stability assist feature turned off. I am perfectly capable of steering my own car (actually better at it WITHOUT the big brother steering help) and perfectly capable of driving my car without traction control assists as well. I also discussed making this change with my tech at my dealership and he said it couldn't hurt anything to disable it, which is why I did so without concern.

It's totally understandable though if you aren't having the steerig issue severely why you would just leave it for now. For many of us though, the issues had gotten to the point of causing VERY serious safety concerns in day to day driving, thus this fix is a god send to us.

**drob23** · 04-04-2013 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by snagitseven

Or if there are any longer term, unpleasant side effect from unchecking that box. That's the only thing that gives me pause from making the change. My off-center wandering issue is pretty moderate compared to others I've read so I'm still hemming and hawing a bit....

One thing to keep in mind is if you have VAGCOM yourself, you can simply reverse whatever coding you did by just re-checking the box. But I do understand why someone might be hesitant to do this.

**snagitseven** · 04-04-2013 07:20 PM

If I'm reading the Wiki correctly, it describes the Driver Steering Recommendation as an intentional, guidance "tug" on the wheel if traction is lost in the direction of a skid. If that's all it does, and doesn't disable any of the ESP safety features or traction control, then I can live without it. After 47 years of driving, I think I have mastered how to correct a skid without help from Audi - especially if it's contributing to the unstable centerline directional control issue.
If the above is correct, I'm going to give it a try. I'm tired of the wandering at speed on the interstate - my wife thinks my driving skills are deteriorating.

**foobert** · 04-04-2013 09:32 PM

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post8382275

" Just something to think about, as "adaptive" control system software could be affected in unexpected ways depending upon operating conditions and usage patterns."

Good job Tomasz and $Doc. It seemed intuitive that an electronically controlled system must have a parameter that would allow or prohibit intervention in the system's operation on the part of the computers / sensors, and it looks like you guys finally dug it out. What's puzzling to me is why some cars' sensor systems would learn to apply that corrective behavior with such alarming frequency. What about steering wheel position, wheel speed, slip sensor inputs, frammis tensioning, etc. etc. would cause some of them to not only learn differently, but to then over-use (abuse?) the "correction" feature?

South FL roads (where I live and drive 98% of the time) are mostly all flat, smooth, and largely devoid of grooves or ruts, except for maybe the far right lanes of major highways that see constant abuse from heavy vehicles - where I DON'T drive 99.9% of the time. Perhaps the adaptive steering feature is coded a bit too liberally, in that if it observes or samples > X instances of what it thinks is steering behavior that requires correction over a certain period of time - for example if a car is driven extensively on grooved or rutted highways - it thinks "hey, I see wandering or inattention, I'm needed here!" [yank the wheel], when the reality is it's just a crappy road. Oversimplification of what I'm sure is a complicated algorithm, but if your fix holds, it's gotta be the case, and could probably be coded to factor in such circumstances with future revisions.

Good luck, and I think I'll look up someone local w/a VAG COM and get that bit unset just for my own peace of mind.

**snagitseven** · 04-05-2013 07:47 AM

Someone with an A7 tried this fix and it created a bunch of issues with various subsystem faults. Apparently, C7s have different systems.

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthre...1#post24428500

**100Daily** · 04-05-2013 08:10 AM

I am really confused by this whole slip thing, and people endlessly complaining about the steering. I have tracked my car. Gone 155 in it. Power drifted everywhere. Raced up and down mountains. No slip. No problems at all. I guess I will just count my lucky stars, but I have never experienced any issues at all with my steering.

If its software, shouldn't all cars be experiencing the same thing with the Audi default setting? Why would one car be fine with that setting, and another make someone feel like they were about to lose control of their vehicle it was so bad? This doesn't make sense to me. Sorry if i missed it, but does the steering software adjust to your driving?

Ps- I hate the name Alu Kruez. It's fucking annoying. Not sure why.

Pps - and if it is a simple software setting, I wonder how many people wasted their money on Alu Kruez only to later find out the problem they were experiencing was actually software related.

**afig367** · 04-05-2013 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by 100Daily

I am really confused by this whole slip thing, and people endlessly complaining about the steering. I have tracked my car. Gone 155 in it. Power drifted everywhere. Raced up and down mountains. No slip. No problems at all. I guess I will just count my lucky stars, but I have never experienced any issues at all with my steering.

How many miles do you have? For a lot of us, the problem developed around 2,000 miles. I'm also under the impression (it's hard to keep up with the thread) that the S4s rolling off the assembly line today have a different part number for the steering rack vs. those of us with an earlier build date (July '12 for me), but I believe it's been determined that the problem develops again with the "new" rack.

**drob23** · 04-05-2013 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by 100Daily

I am really confused by this whole slip thing, and people endlessly complaining about the steering. I have tracked my car. Gone 155 in it. Power drifted everywhere. No slip. No problems at all. I guess I will just count my lucky stars, but I have never experienced any issues at all with my steering.

If its software, shouldn't all cars be experiencing the same thing with the Audi default setting? Why would one car be fine with that setting, and another make someone feel like they were about to lose control of their vehicle it was so bad? This doesn't make sense to me. Sorry if i missed it, but does the steering software adjust to your driving?

Ps- I hate the name Alu Kruez. It's fucking annoying. Not sure why.

Pps - and if it is a simple software setting, I wonder how many people wasted their money on Alu Kruez only to later find out the problem they were experiencing was actually software related.

I think while it was postulated that the Alu Kruez fixed the problem, the actual purpose of that mod is different.

The software still has to interact with hardware and driving conditions...both of those are unique to each car + driver. This is why it's difficult to isolate the cause of the problem, but seems like disabling this feature in VAGCOM might end up being *the fix* until Audi issues whatever formal measures they have to replace hardware and or software. In their eyes, they paid for this feature and thus want it to work (let alone not make the car more unsafe like it currently is).

Also, FWIW I have 5k miles, the feature enabled and I have yet to experience the problem. I've driven in extreme gusts of wind, but nothing that seemed to interact with the steering input in any abnormal manner.

**100Daily** · 04-05-2013 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by afig367

How many miles do you have? For a lot of us, the problem developed around 2,000 miles. I'm also under the impression (it's hard to keep up with the thread) that the S4s rolling off the assembly line today have a different part number for the steering rack vs. those of us with an earlier build date (July '12 for me), but I believe it's been determined that the problem develops again with the "new" rack.

I picked my car up in October 2012 and have 9,000 miles on my car.

**Sjones630** · 04-05-2013 08:47 AM

If I'm reading the Wiki correctly, it describes the Driver Steering Recommendation as an intentional, guidance "tug" on the wheel if traction is lost in the direction of a skid

That's interesting! One of the symptoms that I initially noticed was a distinct rythmic tugging at the wheel when I took my favorite neighborhood sweeping turn at what I percieve to be 8 to 9/10's driving (60 mph). Someone suggested it was the tires tram-lining, but I rejected that diagnosis because the road surface was smooth and flat and the "tugs" were very uniform and were spaced in a perfect rhythm.

**Bronx Cheer** · 04-05-2013 08:58 AM

It comes and goes, occurs particularly on high speed open freeway driving, and seriously feels like the car decides to drive itself for a split second. Going straight, going straight, going straight, whoa! What the heck was that? All without you ever having moved the wheel yourself AND without any tactile feedback in the steering wheel (as you would expect in a proper handling car if the car had tramlined, hydroplaned, or had been pushed by wind). The wheel goes loose (i.e., is highly boosted by the electric steering assist) and you do an exaggerated yank to bring it back under control. Everything thereafter feels normal except for your thudding heart (except for the next time it happens). My last car (sold only a month ago) was an e90 M3, so I definitely know what a performance car is supposed to feel like at speed, and this aint it.

Since this sounds like it is intended to be a driver safety aid, it makes sense that it is dictated in large part by driving conditions. Interestingly, many of the major complainers are those that drive extensively on heavy use highways (especially SoCal people with concrete freeways - aka tramlining and Santa Ana winds central). I don't think it is dependent as much on driver behavior, but on the roads/commute/weather(wind) that driver X typically encounters. My daily 25 mile all highway commute is on a HEAVY use interstate with heavy truck traffic, so there are tramlining ruts galore. Also, it has been unseasonably windy the past week. I think these all play a factor as I have felt absolutely nothing unusual on back roads or on "pristine" highway.

My theory, the car feels the tramlining and or wind gust and tries to "help" and compensate for you before any true loss of traction occurs (instead of DSC which kicks in only upon a true loss of traction situation). The problem is, you don't always need or even want this help. Sometimes, you do in fact want to follow the rut in the road instead of trying to drive out of it (hell, the rut is there for a reason - cars driving the same line over and over again). Good drivers are already compensating for a cross wind - no need to have the car lurch to wake you up. Who in god's name thought this technology was a good idea?

**rs4dreams** · 04-05-2013 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by 100Daily

Pps - and if it is a simple software setting, I wonder how many people wasted their money on Alu Kruez only to later find out the problem they were experiencing was actually software related.

Despite still experiencing the steering issues, the Alu Kreuz definitely made a positive impact on steering responsiveness and the feel of initial turn-in. A lot of people in 2010-2012 S4s that don't have electromechanical power steering have the AK with good results.

**Sjones630** · 04-05-2013 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by 100Daily

Pps - and if it is a simple software setting, I wonder how many people wasted their money on Alu Kruez only to later find out the problem they were experiencing was actually software related.

There seems to be perpetual misunderstanding, for many, as to what the purpose of an Alu Kreuz is, what it does, and what it does not do: It is a chassis stiffening device. Though the stiffening of that area of the car (essentially between the lower suspension pickup points at the front of the car) does have a positive effect on the crispness of the steering via reduced flex, it is not Holy Grail of steering fixes that some have proclaimed!

It does help make the steering feel more direct and crisp, but does NOT address the issues of the 2013 electronic power steering. It has no direct bearing on that issue, but is a useful mod to any S4.