BEL vs APB

[nJoy]

You mean horse.

LOLLL

I see what you did there

[jibberjive]

Nice, awesome to finally see the pictures!

That's exactly what I said to him... Needs to take some calipers and measure the actual difference.

I agree. Corbett, if you don't have a set of calipers, Harbor Freight has them for crazy cheap. Please take measurements of the distance of the block webbing where the crack was, the thinnest part between the window and crank journal (if where it cracked isn't the thinnest part), and the thickness width shown in the 2nd pic.

I have a RS4 block lying around in my garage, I try to remember take a photos.

Please do! And do similar measurements with a caliper, if you would!

The plug for the crank pin is also dif. APB has a plastic cap and oring where the BEL has an allen head pita similar to the plugs on the turbos.

How sure are you on this, that the cap is different and exclusive to the BEL? That could be an easy way to verify which block they have (to figure out if any of the updated blocks are on APB, or if they are only in BEL's). Is the casting physically different there, or is it just the cap that's different?

Corbett, would you mind snapping some pics of the crank pin lock hole on both blocks?

I saw the pics, but i cant tell where I look in my engine bay to find that area? lol

It's just under the cabin filter. Just lift up the ECU cover and you should be able to see it right there.































j/k don't.

You might be able to feed a borescope through oil pan drain bolt, just about the only non-intrusive way to have a look at a bearing...

Interesting thought. Might be possible. With the oil pump hosing right there though, it might be better to pull the oil level sensor and try to snake it in that side, through a bigger hole as well. Even so, you may not be able to see much. And the crank lock might be even tougher to snake into.

[airjawed]

The answer to this one would be very near ZERO.

WTF??

You should conduct an experiment and report back. Lol. Jk don't do it.

Sarcasm is lost on the internet.

[Jason@Addict]

"This is all unproven only one tuner has had block issues and it's from detonation I don't think there's an issue blah blah"

Yea, guess I was right. Welcome to four years ago glad you guys were too busy hating to listen what those of us with experience have been saying.

[rockcandy]

"This is all unproven only one tuner has had block issues and it's from detonation I don't think there's an issue blah blah"

Yea, guess I was right. Welcome to four years ago glad you guys were too busy hating to listen what those of us with experience have been saying.

Oh snap. I listened. I've been trying to research alternatives aside from a vr6 swap....I'm curious to know what British is changing on the block....

[GURUMAN]

"This is all unproven only one tuner has had block issues and it's from detonation I don't think there's an issue blah blah"

Yea, guess I was right. Welcome to four years ago glad you guys were too busy hating to listen what those of us with experience have been saying.

By you knowing all this from 4 years ago, I don't see to much relevant info coming from your angle ?

[zillarob]

How sure are you on this, that the cap is different and exclusive to the BEL? That could be an easy way to verify which block they have (to figure out if any of the updated blocks are on APB, or if they are only in BEL's). Is the casting physically different there, or is it just the cap that's different?

Corbett, would you mind snapping some pics of the crank pin lock hole on both blocks?

Thats how all of them I have seen were.
I think the block is diff. Iirc no hole for the 10mm hold down bolt, and from the look of the plug, will have threads all the way to the outer face (instead of the bore the plastic plug would sit in).

[britishturbo]

Oh snap. I listened. I've been trying to research alternatives aside from a vr6 swap....I'm curious to know what British is changing on the block....

All will be revealed in time... I just want to make sure it's going to work first before i go telling everyone about it lol.

[Turbo Nerd]

I'm going to the shop tomorrow, and if the block is ready to be picked up from the machine shop then we will get some measurements for everybody before this thing gets put together. If it's not ready tomorrow then for sure Monday, but I will definitely make certain to get some numbers here.

[jibberjive]

"This is all unproven only one tuner has had block issues and it's from detonation I don't think there's an issue blah blah"

Yea, guess I was right. Welcome to four years ago glad you guys were too busy hating to listen what those of us with experience have been saying.

I don't remember seeing you post anything publicly about the block until like 3 weeks ago.

[Meow]

I saw a 1.8t idle for like 15 min without oil, not a prob.
If it were put under load though, I dont think it would still be running today.

If you get board there is a barrage of "how to kill a Honda motor" sort of videos on YouTube. Putting beer, sand, you name it down through the oil full hole and through the block. Even saw them drain the oil, do burnouts constantly and then hook up a water hose to the oil... Kinda nuts.

[zillarob]

The sand in the crank case is for freshening up the rings if you have low compression. I hear they put it through the intake on those also for a light extrude hone effect

It really is amazing what some engines will endure before they expire.

[jibberjive]

"This is all unproven only one tuner has had block issues and it's from detonation I don't think there's an issue blah blah"

Yea, guess I was right. Welcome to four years ago glad you guys were too busy hating to listen what those of us with experience have been saying.

Any input on whether the updated block casting made it's way onto any late APB engines, or if it is strictly related to the BEL engine code?

[D Lo]

I've got the large allen bolt for a crank lock pin on my block (2002 A6). I'll snap a couple of pics later today and record the block number.

[D Lo]

Crank pin plug


Block part number - Looks like 078 103 027 BF?




Edit: After looking at Julex's reply it just may be 078 103 021 AE.

[zillarob]

Thx! Can you get some pics of where that plug goes also?

[D Lo]

Thx! Can you get some pics of where that plug goes also?

Sure thing. I'll snap one and upload tomorrow (block is a little inaccessible right now)

[D Lo]

A couple pics of the crank lock pin zillarob. Just beneath the lower bolt of the motor mount bracket

[zillarob]

Sweet, thats what we were looking for. It looks like the casting is dif here also.
I dont see the boss below the hole where they would drill/tap for the hold down bolt on the plastic style.
I grap a pic of an apb real quick.



pic edit

[D Lo]

Something else I noticed. At the top of the block underneath the intake manifold towards the front of the motor I saw "BF" marked. I didn't snap a pic though :( maybe in a few hours.

[jibberjive]

Nice, sounds like a good tell-tale of which block someone has, if we can verify that there is a strict correlation between the metal crank pin lock cover and the updated block. AFAIK, with regards to the allroad's, BEL motors (which we should separate from the 'updated blocks', until we know for sure whether or not there were any updated blocks in late APB motors) only came on '03 and newer. Is the motor from the '02 A6's APB or BEL?

DLo, since the motor is on a pallet, any chance you have access to a boroscope that you can stick through the crank pin lock hole to see if you can see the crank mains? You'd obviously have to spin the crank so that the counterweight is out of the way, but you just might be able to see enough of the crank main's details to determine if the block is indeed the updated casting.

[D Lo]

I'll be putting in some IE rods soon so I can snap some pics once I pull the pan. I'm trying to work faster but I've got limited time, bare with me :)

Edit: I don't have a boroscope.

[jibberjive]

Sounds good, and you don't need a boroscope if you're taking it apart. I thought you were just going to throw it back in. Just to clarify though, the engine is an APB, correct?

[D Lo]

To be honest I'm not sure. The heads have the APB engraving, but my block has the allen bolt for the crank lock pin so I'm guessing it's either updated or BEL. I was hoping there were other part number references to confirm.

[julex]

Like I posted above, what is the part number stamped on the block? It is right below AC compressor bracket.

[D Lo]

Like I posted above, what is the part number stamped on the block? It is right below AC compressor bracket.

I answered above along with pics It looks to be the same numbers, but the last few characters are hard to read. It looks to be 078 103 021? "BF"? Does the "A" in the AE of your APB blocks look like the A in this font? Or does the A have a flat top? What do you make of it?

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post8475597

[julex]

I answered above along with pics It looks to be the same numbers, but the last few characters are hard to read. It looks to be 078 103 021? "BF"? Does the "A" in the AE of your APB blocks look like the A in this font? Or does the A have a flat top? What do you make of it?

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post8475597

SOrry!

That's completely different, yours is BF while APB is AE, can tell the difference. Thanks for part# pictures.

[MadProfessor]

I wonder if the 2.7 or 2.5 TDI blocks are any stronger and/or will work with different pistons and heads ect.. the RMS flange looks a lot like the RS4 RMS flange. Also the crank shafts have the same bearing sizes. They are also 4 bolt mains...Honestly they look a lot like the RS4 block. I honestly have no idea...just a thought. Here is a link to ebay.de and you can see what I'm talking about in the pictures.
http://http://www.ebay.de/itm/Audi-A...item5d3af556b1

[aysix]

If the later 02 A6's have the push in coil packs...then its the updated version of the block i'd imagine? or maybe its the new setup with the APB block?

[MadProfessor]

These are TDI blocks that I was referring to (glow plugs). I was thinking if they are the same demoniacally...maybe with (assuming they would bolt on) our 30v heads, crank, pistions, ect...basically everything...if this could possibly be a "budget" RS4=strength/"revised cooling passages" block. Considering if you were going to build an engine and pay for the machining anyways.

[MadProfessor]

I've also been wondering if the use of a valley girdle would help with the cracking. It would be easier to put one on our blocks due to not having lower intake manifolds and lifters in the way like on USDM V8's where I've seen them before.

[jibberjive]

I was thinking if they are the same demoniacally...

[Scotty@Advanced]

I wonder if the 2.7 or 2.5 TDI blocks are any stronger and/or will work with different pistons and heads ect.. the RMS flange looks a lot like the RS4 RMS flange. Also the crank shafts have the same bearing sizes. They are also 4 bolt mains...Honestly they look a lot like the RS4 block. I honestly have no idea...just a thought. Here is a link to ebay.de and you can see what I'm talking about in the pictures.
http://http://www.ebay.de/itm/Audi-A...item5d3af556b1

The IMHO 2.5 tdi blocks are way stronger (they weigh in at ~20 lbs more).. But there are so many external differences I suspect using them would be very difficult.

Scott

[MadProfessor]

Oops...dimensionally..

[MadProfessor]

The IMHO 2.5 tdi blocks are way stronger (they weigh in at ~20 lbs more).. But there are so many external differences I suspect using them would be very difficult.

Scott

Thanks for the input. I've never really compared them. Just noticed a lot of similarities and figured that I'd throw it out there. Maybe someone had some insight...and you did. Thanks again.

[britishturbo]

I picked up a junk BEL block. Once I rip it apart I'll cmm it and compare it to the APB block.
Then we'll know the exact differences.

[ravensB5S4]

I picked up a junk BEL block. Once I rip it apart I'll cmm it and compare it to the APB block.
Then we'll know the exact differences.

Im excite!

[aysix]

Very nice keep us updated

[julex]

in for updates as well

[jibberjive]

Now here's where things get interesting, I've also got a 'BF' part numbered block from an APB motor, but mine has the plastic 'bolt-down' crank lock pin cover. So the exact same part number (078 103 021 BF) block can have different castings.





You can see the crank lock pin cover casting better here




Has anyone verified yet that screw-in crank lock cover = thicker main journals?