Monty’s Single Turbo -> Back to Twins (Compound)

[britishturbo]

Wow Max we actually agreed on something... lol

Yeah It's been fun remote tuning this car, Monty you still gonna come down this Sat maybe?

[britishturbo]

Here's that run of his showing WTQ and WHP, as well as a new feature... Wideband AFR logging through the ECU...
Still on the rich side as I dial in his tune for the Meth too.

[britishturbo]

And just for the fun of it... my turbo vs Monty's turbo lol

[Monty23]

My power really drops off up top lol! I need some better flowing intake components! and 2.8 cams...

[britishturbo]

My power really drops off up top lol! I need some better flowing intake components! and 2.8 cams...

You'll gain some up top from that but you are probably close to the limit of turbo flow

[Monty23]

I might have to try an .82 AR housing.... Maybe I can borrow Lidos?

[britishturbo]

I might have to try an .82 AR housing.... Maybe I can borrow Lidos?

That will help reduce back pressure at the expense of spool but it's not going to increase the compressor wheel flow... you are at or near the limit of comp wheel flow.

[Monty23]

Oh, I knew I should have went with the 6262 lol. Atleast I still have a 2500rpm powerband...

[britishturbo]

Oh, I knew I should have went with the 6262 lol. Atleast I still have a 2500rpm powerband...

It's always a compromise man lol
And you still have power up high just not as much as down low.
If they made a 6060 it would be about perfect haha

[Monty23]

I can't imagine how e85 would feel in my car....

[jibberjive]

The safest way to do it is to use the wonderful "Map Switching" code made by the uberfantabulous phila_dot (Props should always be given to those who make cool shit )
This way if you did run out of meth you could just switch to the non meth settings.

Wait, you are selling tunes with phila_dot's map switching? I thought that was released with an explicit "personal use only" license?

Changing my RPM per MPH definatley changed my CALC whp etc, it also made me realize that comparing FATS times to you guys was pointless for me.

And also comparing accel g's is sketchy at best, as is seen in Monty's post on the last page, where he changed one variable on the logging template and went from .6g to .7g just like that.

Here is what the Mark P acceleration graph looks like for my 2.69 FATS run.
Mark P FATS calc also says this was a 2.71 run.

Did you by chance take a look at the accel g's as well for those two runs? I'm curious how the MarkP excel templates compare to the ECUx plot for accel g calculations, both on stock variable profiles (as well as flyboy's excel graph utility [assuming that that 3rd excel logging utility that people use is his]).

Here's that run of his showing WTQ and WHP, as well as a new feature... Wideband AFR logging through the ECU...

Very cool! I've had some thoughts about this (likely the same way you went about it). This is just logging, right (it doesn't have wideband lambda control)?

[britishturbo]

Wait, you are selling tunes with phila_dot's map switching? I thought that was released with an explicit "personal use only" license?



And also comparing accel g's is sketchy at best, as is seen in Monty's post on the last page, where he changed one variable on the logging template and went from .6g to .7g just like that.



Did you by chance take a look at the accel g's as well for those two runs? I'm curious how the MarkP excel templates compare to the ECUx plot for accel g calculations, both on stock variable profiles (as well as flyboy's excel graph utility [assuming that that 3rd excel logging utility that people use is his]).



Very cool! I've had some thoughts about this (likely the same way you went about it). This is just logging, right (it doesn't have wideband lambda control)?

Nope not selling map switching at all. Phila said it can be given to people for free as long as he got credit :-)
And besides I didn't sell Monty a tune :-)

And yeah just logging on the WB

[jibberjive]

I see, I thought Monty was paying you like some of the others.

[britishturbo]

I see, I thought Monty was paying you like some of the others.

Nope, sometimes I'm overly generous to my friends haha

[slow ride]

Are you guys removing all the emissions crap on top of the intake in the tunes also? Are the cars to the point where they run clean in most if not all driving conditions and no codes, check engine lights, etc.? Props to you BT for helping all these STK guys out. Did you pick up on the Audi tuning from Nefmoto that quick or did you have experience from other motronic ecu's? I'm really starting to think about doing a STK on my S4 come winter time if you're still tinkering with them :)

I think the .82 A/R might pick up some power from reduced backpressure helping with pumping loss of the engine as a system. It's hard to say without trying it, but having a nice power band is never a bad thing and probably makes the car more fun to drive. I'd give up a few HP for better response in most cases.

[catbed]

Are you guys removing all the emissions crap on top of the intake in the tunes also? Are the cars to the point where they run clean in most if not all driving conditions and no codes, check engine lights, etc.?

Only emissions crap on top of the intake is EVAP. Others are necessary for proper function. I'm assuming only rear o2s are deleted and maybe mono lambda, since it's a STK and all.

[lidoautogroup]

I might have to try an .82 AR housing.... Maybe I can borrow Lidos?

I went with the .64 housing instead lol.

[LINDW4LL]

I wonder how the spool compares between a .82 5858 and the 6262. It might make more sense to go straight to a 6262

[Monty23]

Yes, saying BT is generous is most definitely an understatement. I am very thankful to call BT my friend even though I have not met him in person yet. Hopefully we can change that soon ;) I owe him big time for all the help he has given me, not only with tuning, but with sound advice.

[MadAudi]

6266 takes forever to spool, even on a 3.0L with fully built heads...

...but the power up top is unbelievable, even on a base tune.

my .02

[LINDW4LL]

6266 takes forever to spool, even on a 3.0L with fully built heads...

Won't that improve a bit as the tune gets dialed in? Still will be laggy though. Do you have a boost curve graph. How laggy is it?

[UkuRiSh]

Won't that improve a bit as the tune gets dialed in? Still will be laggy though. Do you have a boost curve graph. How laggy is it?

I'm happy with my graph CEA 6266 T4 .68 AR still working on tune , trying to make 22-24 psi by 4000 rpm and my old setup only hit 10 psi by 4000 rpm .


16 psi run non tuned ecu and 21 psi tweaked file

[Monty23]

Impressive Ukurish, how does the power feel?

[UkuRiSh]

Impressive Ukurish, how does the power feel?

feel's like i'm going to moon :) joking this is 2nd and 3rd gear pull error graph . Feels much better then old setup nothing special on power yet but I will update some time .

[034Motorsport]

Just to touch on the turbine AR discussion, we've done quite extensive testing with different housings on everything from the 5858 to a GT42RS. In every single example, the smallest turbine AR available produced the best powerband without more than a 10-15whp limit to peak power, and a hot vs. cold day can make more of a difference than that.

For example, on the GT42RS and our 3.0L APB, the .86AR turbine produced within 15whp of the 1.25AR, but produced a much much wider powerband. These 5v motors just seem to like a really small AR. On our 2.0L Time Attack motor, same thing; with a 6262 and 600whp, the .64AR turbine had a much broader powerband with no or barely any effect on peak power.

Here is a graph of my 6262 on a mild California 91oct pump tune. This was before refining it, and with the race gas tune and 25psi, the .64AR turbine hit 22psi by 4000rpm.

[britishturbo]

Just to touch on the turbine AR discussion, we've done quite extensive testing with different housings on everything from the 5858 to a GT42RS. In every single example, the smallest turbine AR available produced the best powerband without more than a 10-15whp limit to peak power, and a hot vs. cold day can make more of a difference than that.

For example, on the GT42RS and our 3.0L APB, the .86AR turbine produced within 15whp of the 1.25AR, but produced a much much wider powerband. These 5v motors just seem to like a really small AR. On our 2.0L Time Attack motor, same thing; with a 6262 and 600whp, the .64AR turbine had a much broader powerband with no or barely any effect on peak power.

Here is a graph of my 6262 on a mild California 91oct pump tune. This was before refining it, and with the race gas tune and 25psi, the .64AR turbine hit 22psi by 4000rpm.

Compare power above 6500 though between the two housings.
I'm pretty sure you will see a huge difference up there.
Comparing both 5858 and 6262 on a 0.63 A/R to my AGP Zeta 3.2 with 0.82 A/R my power above 6500 is insane compared to the other turbos.
Can you please show estimated or dyno HP between the two housings. Not just low end.

[034Motorsport]

Compare power above 6500 though between the two housings.
I'm pretty sure you will see a huge difference up there.
Comparing both 5858 and 6262 on a 0.63 A/R to my AGP Zeta 3.2 with 0.82 A/R my power above 6500 is insane compared to the other turbos.
Can you please show estimated or dyno HP between the two housings. Not just low end.

We rev our Time Attack car to +9k, and our GTi-RS to 8k... I revved my car to 8k as well, but as I mentioned, I never pushed my 6262 past 25psi and just under 600whp. At 8k, I still had very strong accel and the power kept going.

I've yet to see a single dyno that proves a larger AR is more beneficial to a larger powerband on an Audi 5v motor. I'll take a large powerband increase and more torque over a sub 5% limit on peak power. Were not talking 6500rpm here.

Now remember, can't compare other cars to this motor. It's just not the same. On some cars, the larger AR's matter significantly more. Manifold design and other items can change how much this affects, but time and time and time again we find the smallest possible AR is the fastest; we typically are not going for peak power, but being fast.

[britishturbo]

We rev our Time Attack car to +9k, and our GTi-RS to 8k... I revved my car to 8k as well, but as I mentioned, I never pushed my 6262 past 25psi and just under 600whp. At 8k, I still had very strong accel and the power kept going.

I've yet to see a single dyno that proves a larger AR is more beneficial to a larger powerband on an Audi 5v motor. I'll take a large powerband increase and more torque over a sub 5% limit on peak power. Were not talking 6500rpm here.

Now remember, can't compare other cars to this motor. It's just not the same. On some cars, the larger AR's matter significantly more. Manifold design and other items can change how much this affects, but time and time and time again we find the smallest possible AR is the fastest; we typically are not going for peak power, but being fast.

The 3.2 is just my turbo name...
I'm on a built 2.7 with cnc'd 2.8 heads, 2.8 cams, rs4 intake and rs4 throttle body

[britishturbo]

And I'm shifting at 8k rpm btw

[MadAudi]

When I get my flywheel situation sorted out, I (and by me I mean british) will post up results for a truly fully built/stroked motor.

[Meow]

Now remember, can't compare other cars to this motor. It's just not the same. On some cars, the larger AR's matter significantly more. Manifold design and other items can change how much this affects, but time and time and time again we find the smallest possible AR is the fastest; we typically are not going for peak power, but being fast.

Science doesn't apply to b5 s4's.


Depending on what type of "faster" you are talking about, that can be true and can be false, imo. Clearly from multiple other car platforms AR plays a big roll in upper RPM power, and seeing as you spend most of the time 4500+ when drag racing, fastest would be best with a larger AR with better top end. This is compounded with heads, cams, and good flowing intake manifold and throttle body.

That picture you showed will basically do nothing to make a car fast down the strip :P Sure helps a time attack car though.

[LINDW4LL]

Science doesn't apply to b5 s4's.

That picture you showed will basically do nothing to make a car fast down the strip :P Sure helps a time attack car though.

That may be true, but most people daily drive their S4s. I'd take a bigger power band over an extra 10 peak whp any day.

[Monty23]

see post# 555

[Meow]

That may be true, but most people daily drive their S4s. I'd take a bigger power band over an extra 10 peak whp any day.

Enjoy your slower car! lol, its gonna be a more than 10 peak for a proper AR setup.

Here are my best times. I developed a leak between my up pipe and turbo which killed boost on my later runs. Also, anyone that pans on running hard at the strip, replace your stock shift knob, mine kept coming of when shifting to 2nd and 4th lol. I'll post logs and video later.

First run is decent, get that leak fixed and make some more passes!

[Monty23]

Had a good time on Friday. The two issues I had were my stock shift knob kept flying off my shifter in either my 1st -> 2nd or 3rd ->4th gear shifts.... that was very annoying and caused me to miss a lot of shifts. Then at some point halfway through the event, my car developed a pretty bad exhaust leak in between my up pipe and turbo, which caused me to not build full boost.

Here are the 3 best slips of the 7 runs. I am sure I can get into the 11s with a screw on shift knob and no more exhaust leak lol.


And here is one of the videos of my runs. In this run my shift knob came of when shifting into 4th (notice the low trap).
http://s1091.photobucket.com/user/JM...b7fbe.mp4.html


And here is my exhaust leak:

[Monty23]

My precision turbine housing also has developed a hole. It looks like one of the tapped holes for the CHRA -> Turbine HSG bolts was a little deep :(





The hole is right in line with the bolt in the center of this next pic:

[britishturbo]

It's amazing the difference in spool that even a small exhaust leak can make... big one's like this really hurt!

[Monty23]

It's amazing the difference in spool that even a small exhaust leak can make... big one's like this really hurt!

Seriously! Check out the end of my last run, and my oil pressure was not reading right ;)

[Monty23]

So, I found the true culprit of my exhaust leak. Apparently I got the first kit ever made and this weaker bellow cracked under the pressure lol.




Here is what Max had to say about the issue:

First and foremost, this is the first instance we've had of this happening. It's a bummer, and obviously we are going to take care of Monty and fix/replace his up-pipe and get him back on the road ASAP. We take care of our customers and we offer warranties on all of our 034Motorsport products.

Monty is not the only one using and abusing this turbo kit at his levels; Audizine may reflect a good amount of enthusiasts, but not everyone has time or desire to be on the internet all the time. I'm merely pointing this out to say that this kit has been put through the paces by more than just us and we've sold close or beyond 30 kits now. But at aggressive levels and the track, sometimes these things happen (twin turbo or single turbo). We offer the turbo brace to help limit movement and stress on the turbo system. I never ran a brace on my car and ran in the 11's at the track, but we have always recommended it and that is why we produced it.

If you have a concern about your kit, you can contact us and we can discuss it. Of the two people who have had a warped flanges, they were 2 of the first kits we ever produced and sold. For months now we have milled the flanges after welding just to be absolutely sure that they are 100% flat, but Monty and Adam both had some kits from the very first production run.

Anyways, 034 did a great job getting my up pipe fixed and back to me. Here is the reworked up pipe:




Got the face milled flat as well like the newer kits:



And something to help keep the shift knob from flying off while I'm slamming gearz




Should have the car back on the road tomorrow! Then we can dial in the meth tune..... cough...BT...cough....

[TweetsS4Estate]

Should be awesome!