Steering Issues - 2013

[Moose201]

when you do an autoscan, just go to address 44. here are my scans:

When car was new with the old rack, software version was D
With the new rack installed, software version was E
With my last 48k8 update in august 2013, software revision, it changed to F

Old Rack:

Address 44: Steering Assist (J500) Labels: None
Part No SW: 8K0 909 144 D HW: 8K0 909 144 B
Component: RCEPS H36 0505
Revision: 00001000 Serial number: 0022530856
Coding: 100000010001
Shop #: WSC 06324 000 00000
ASAM Dataset: EV_RCEPSAU48X 005010
ROD: EV_RCEPSAU48X.rod
VCID: 32600A326534409

New rack:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 44: Steering Assist (J500) Labels: 8K0-909-144.clb
Part No SW: 8K0 909 144 E HW: 8K0 909 144 B
Component: RCEPS H37 0506
Revision: 00001000 Serial number: 0011133344
Coding: 100000010001
Shop #: WSC 91445 999 100729
ASAM Dataset: EV_RCEPSAU48X 006012
ROD: EV_RCEPSAU48X.rod
VCID: 336E0F369A89C880ECE


New rack with new software:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 44: Steering Assist (J500) Labels: 8K0-909-144.clb
Part No SW: 8K0 909 144 F HW: 8K0 909 144 B
Component: RCEPS H37 0507
Revision: 00001000 Serial number: 0011133344
Coding: 100000010001
Shop #: WSC 91445 999 10072
ASAM Dataset: EV_RCEPSAU48X 008014
ROD: EV_RCEPSAU48X.rod
VCID: 346C0C2A9F87CFB8F43

Okay, that helps. Thanks audibmi

[Moose201]

Hi Moose201,
can you provide a VagCom scan of your car? I am curious to see what is the software version after your second 48k8 update and compare it with the early 48k8 update.

Here you go:

Address 44: Steering Assist (J500) Labels: 8K0-909-144.clb
Part No SW: 8K0 909 144 F HW: 8K0 909 144 B
Component: RCEPS H37 0507
Revision: 00001000 Serial number: 0005941490
Coding: 100000010001
Shop #: WSC 06324 000 00000
ASAM Dataset: EV_RCEPSAU48X 008014
ROD: EV_RCEPSAU48X.rod
VCID: 3467E71A9F7257BE40B-8061

[BirdmanQ5]

Chatted with my service tech, apparently I have the steering campaign but I still have the notchiness.

Used Vagcom to remove the DSR, and holy hell did the steering change. Everything is just loose as hell, not really sure I like it. Notchiness is gone though so I got that going for me, which is good I guess.

Does Alu Kreuz fix the notchiness issue? Might re-enable the DSR because I'm not sure I like the steering so loosie-goosie

[SilveR316]

Chatted with my service tech, apparently I have the steering campaign but I still have the notchiness.

Used Vagcom to remove the DSR, and holy hell did the steering change. Everything is just loose as hell, not really sure I like it. Notchiness is gone though so I got that going for me, which is good I guess.

Does Alu Kreuz fix the notchiness issue? Might re-enable the DSR because I'm not sure I like the steering so loosie-goosie

How did the steering feel when you drove my car a couple weeks ago?

I had the 48k8 update done in November.

[BirdmanQ5]

How did the steering feel when you drove my car a couple weeks ago?

I had the 48k8 update done in November.

Not really sure, I'd think the same? I was too enamoured with your exhaust to worry about steering.

Really only noticed it lately...I'll play around with VagCom and test drives

[BirdmanQ5]

Took it for another drive this morning. Feels normal again to me now, but no notch is present...not sure what I was griping about yesterday. Maybe it just re-enabled itself? Going to test it out further on crowned roads, but it seems like I might have fixed the issue.

Hi Birdman,
Do you get errors in the ABS module with DSR disabled?
Btw, check out my posts in another thread (posts 465-468). Note, that the coding in those posts is before 48k8 update.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...COM-Fix/page12

There is a difference in the coding of early 2013 S4 and later models that had DSR off from factory.
I have not tried anything on my car. If you want to play around it is at your own risk.

[aka5]

is there TSB for the MMI notchy feeling? cars at dealer now and i asked them to see if they can do a rack replacement.. Mine is beyond bad

[F40LM]

I just drove home and my steering was popping back and fourth nonstop. I'm taking my car in Monday this is getting ridiculous. I have the update BTW and DSR disabled.

[aka5]

dealer is replacing my steering shaft..... anyone hear of this?

[F40LM]

dealer is replacing my steering shaft..... anyone hear of this?

That one is new to me. I'm going in Saturday.

[BirdmanQ5]

Ok pretty sure I have DSR disabled and the notchiness is back. Hmmm

[kasher_khan]

I was supposed to take my car to the dealer this week to have the regional audi technical POC take a look at it, i.e before I curbed my car and broke the suspension (story in thread on this board). Now I can only imagine what they'll say if got forbid the body shop didn't fix everything with OEM parts. What are you guys doing to handle the post 48k8 update issues?

[drob23]

I was supposed to take my car to the dealer this week to have the regional audi technical POC take a look at it, i.e before I curbed my car and broke the suspension (story in thread on this board). Now I can only imagine what they'll say if got forbid the body shop didn't fix everything with OEM parts. What are you guys doing to handle the post 48k8 update issues?

There's no way they use non-OEM parts, car is too new.

[BirdmanQ5]

Drove both my S4 and SilveR316's S4 back to back, 2013 DSG vs 2014 6MT with coils and Alu Kreuz, his is clearly way different and has zero notchiness, plus it is a monster in the corners. Best way to describe the difference is where in a stock setup you may feel a bit of lean toward the outside of a curve, it's like the nose drops into the turn and darts inward without that "flex".

I don't think I actually have 48K8, pretty sure the dealer just marked down that they installed it. Will be taking it to the dealer this week.

[grc]

It is easy to verify if you have 48k8 with VagCom. Check the software version in Steering module. If the software version is "8K0 909 144 F" then you do have 48k8. If the last letter is a D or an E (instead of an F) then you have an older software version.
See post 1921 in this thread. It is the first one on this page.

[BirdmanQ5]

It is easy to verify if you have 48k8 with VagCom. Check the software version in Steering module. If the software version is "8K0 909 144 F" then you do have 48k8. If the last letter is a D or an E (instead of an F) then you have an older software version.
See post 1921 in this thread. It is the first one on this page.

I'll double check, thanks!

[F40LM]

Dealer called me and told me they couldn't repeat the issue, so they just re-balanced the wheels and gave the car another alignment. Thanks for nothingz.

[aka5]

Dealer called me and told me they couldn't repeat the issue, so they just re-balanced the wheels and gave the car another alignment. Thanks for nothingz.

You gotta force em. I told them I wasn't going to pick my car up until they fix it

[F40LM]

You gotta force em. I told them I wasn't going to pick my car up until they fix it

That was my first time bringing it in. If I get it again I won't be as nice. I get it here and there and had one really bad day and that's why I decided to bring it in.

[aka5]

dealer performed TSB#2036032/1

replaced Intermediate Drive Shaft for notchyness.... so far so good will keep updated

[Moose201]

dealer performed TSB#2036032/1

replaced Intermediate Drive Shaft for notchyness.... so far so good will keep updated

Just to clarify, was your notch only at 12 o' clock?

[aka5]

Just to clarify, was your notch only at 12 o' clock?

Yup

[F40LM]

Yup

Mine was only at 12 o'clock and they redid the alignment on the car. Feels a lot better now. I have no play at 12 anymore. We will see though its only been two days of driving and mine was random.

[Moose201]

Yup

Interesting. First time I've heard of this TSB....would be nice to get a copy of the text.

[Mbrad]

I had the same steering drive shaft replacement as AKA to deal with the notch issue. They still weren't satisfied, ran up the chain with audi and replaced the whole rack. I just got the car back yesterday. I have been pretty vocal about not liking the steering on the 13 S4 since bought it.

Now, with the new rack, I'm pretty sure I had a crummy rack all along. The car feels substantially different. Not only is the notch gone but is also tracks better, responds quicker and feels like I had hoped. In short, something was wrong before that is not there now..... now, that i like my car again, finish the stereo upgrade!

[aka5]

update.. So the shaft replacement did NOTHING... Will be taking back to the dealer, demanding a new rack..

[BirdmanQ5]

update.. So the shaft replacement did NOTHING... Will be taking back to the dealer, demanding a new rack..

Asked my tech about that TSB, he said it doesn't apply to B8.5's as they have a different mechanism than the B8's, apparently it's electronic instead of mechanical?

[aka5]

hopefully this time around the dealer does the rack replacement..literally have been to the dealer 5 times just for this single complaint

[gendry]

damn aka, sucks. please keep us in the loop. especially me since I have a mild version of this problem and am local to you ;)

[4rings5]

Apologize in advance for the lengthy post...

I've been dealing with 2 issues and wanted to let the community know the results of various attempts to fix the problems associated with the B8.5 platform steering.

I have 2 cars effected by the common issues in the EPS. One is 2013 S4 and the other is a 2013 RS5.

First the RS5. This car never exhibited any of the steering issues - no notchiness and no wandering/floaty feeling at highway speeds. Took the car in for 5k service when the 48k8 software was loaded without my express consent. After the s/w update the steering feel was horrible. Very little difference between dynamic and comfort, very little resistance to wheel offered at highway speeds, and a very vague or floaty feeling while driving (primarily at highway speeds). I immediately took the car back to the dealer and started the complaint process to get it fixed. Tried to get them to put the "old" s/w back into the car and they said it was technically not possible. At the start of the troubleshooting process the dealer was instructed by the Audi Tech line folks to have me come in and drive one of their cars to baseline the steering feel. I thought this was crazy at first, but relented and drove a 2014 S4 from their inventory. Car felt great and exhibited none of the bad characteristics present in my RS5. With this baseline established the dealership technicians were then giving the following troubleshooting steps; 1. loosen and tighten the sub-frame brace, 2. check the tire pressures, 3. do an alignment, 4. replace the steering rack. After each of these steps I drove the car and then the baseline car. After each attempt there was no difference and the issues remained. The dealership then elevated to the regional Field Technical Specialist. This guy showed up and determined that he felt nothing out of the ordinary but "in the interest of my satisfaction, Audi has instructed the dealership to replace the steering rack". This pissed me off a little so I initiated contact to AoA. The rack was scheduled to be replaced in a couple of weeks. In the interim I hooked up the VAG Comm and unchecked the DSR box in module 44. No help and it actually induced another problem with the headlights. They would no longer reach full deflection to the up position (only light the road about 6' in front of the car). The good news in all of this drama is that the steering rack was replaced yesterday and the car is back to the way it was. The steering resistance in dynamic is great. The tracking of the car on the highway is perfect. This is the car that I bought and the performance I was used to before the 48K8 update.

My wife's car - the 2013 S4...This car exhibited lots of the common problems. When we bought the car there were no issues - car felt and drove great. Over time and with decreasing temps the car started to develop the common problems. It had a terrible notch at 12 o'clock, was very floaty at highway speeds, little difference between dynamic and comfort, and was overall a bear to keep going straight on the road. We had the 48K8 update performed and the notch was eliminated and has not returned to date. The s/w update seems to have amplified the floaty feeling at highway speeds. I read a lot about the "claims" of the alu kreuz sub frame brace so I took matters into my hands and ordered one for her car. Had it installed and at lower speeds car feels great. Resistance in dynamic mode is better (not great), but the floaty feeling at highway speeds seems worse and more unpredictable now. I also tried the VAG Comm fix for this car and no difference was noticed. I'm now about to embark on trying to get the steering rack replaced on this car and hope that the fix translates from RS5 to S4.

Hope some of this information helps those struggling with the same issues.

[stactum]

I'm now about to embark on trying to get the steering rack replaced on this car and hope that the fix translates from RS5 to S4.

When your rack will be replaced do you mind posting rack's part number. I had mine replaced way back and don't have 48K8 update done - so generally speaking steering feels great. But I am assuming at some point I'll have the update done, I just want to make sure the rack is the same, not some newer version.
Thanks in advance.

[4rings5]

I'll be picking up the paperwork tomorrow so I can definitely post the p/n for the rack they installed.

[Wilbur]

update.. So the shaft replacement did NOTHING... Will be taking back to the dealer, demanding a new rack..

Don't think rack alone can be root of random notchiness. I had 48K a few months ago and car is perfect. Only leave it in dynamic. i wish guy above would post his AK comments when that subject comes up!

[drob23]

Currently have a 2013 A4 loaner, and the steering is awful. The boost seems inconsistent and you get strange pulling (or lack of resistance) sensations that are not induced by the cars dynamics. Feels worse on the highway, where steering efforts should be lower, my guess is the feedback controller has a more difficult time properly applying the appropriate counter torque.

It's hard for me to narrow down the specific difference to my 2013 S4, but I believe the issue is eliminated from a subset of these fixes -

S4 sport suspension
Lowered on H&R OE springs
15-20 mm spacers to push out track width
Alu Kreutz
EC sway bars and end links
DSR disabled with non-48k8 update

Or just a bad batch of racks...

[millerrh]

Is it documented anywhere that the car learns and adapts it's settings according to the driver? I keep reading people saying this but it seems a little crazy and unsafe that Audi would even do something like this.

[drob23]

I have read all the online threads about the problem and I have studies the behavior of my car extensively.
My conclusion is that the problem is due only to the software. Here is my case:
Before the 48k8 update my 2013 S4 had tight and precise steering. I was very happy with it. But after I drove off the dealership with the 48k8 update I immediately noticed intense center notchiness and very loose steering even in dynamic. So the software change made a huge (negative) difference. Also there are some days that the steering feels very good and other days it is very bad. There are no hardware changes or adjustments in my car.
I assume that the software is learning the driving style and the vehicles inputs (sensors, ADS settings etc) and adapts to it. When the rack or drive shaft is replaced, the software is flashed, so it starts clean and it goes through the learning process from scratch. In some cases the learning process converges to a good result and in other cases in a bad one. That's my explanation why the rack replacement solved the problem only for a few people.

If somebody knows how to erase the learned parameters using VagCom, please give me the instructions and I will try several times.

I don't think anyone would argue that the cause is software related. Question is whether the fix should be software related. Unless you know how to crack the encryption of the power steering control module (ECU), then you're kind of stuck at the whim of Audi's engineers. I believe you can severely reduce the negative sides of the steering by changing hardware on your vehicle with some of the mods I listed. This is my observation after switching from my 2013 S4 with mods and base 2013 A4 bone stock loaner vehicle with 7k miles.

Is it documented anywhere that the car learns and adapts it's settings according to the driver? I keep reading people saying this but it seems a little crazy and unsafe that Audi would even do something like this.

Every vehicle is different and sensors themselves will change based on ambient conditions. Not everything can be absolute, and therefore, it's perfectly reasonable to have certain parameters in their power steering ECU adapt. However, electronic software feedback systems bring with them the potential to create problems. In my personal opinion, I think Audi tried to do to much with their EPS systems, such as implement the DSR feature.

[gendry]

I wish APR or GIAC would put together a steering ECU tune ;)

[grc]

Hi millerrh,
The Driver Steering Recommendation system is an example of a software feature that reacts differently per driver. When I drive the car more aggressively I find that the steering is "fighting" me. But my wife who drives the car softly has not noticed any steering problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_...Recommendation
http://www.industrycortex.com/datash...inal-dn-ha.pdf

[rs4dreams]

Hi millerrh,
The Driver Steering Recommendation system is an example of a software feature that reacts differently per driver. When I drive the car more aggressively I find that the steering is "fighting" me. But my wife who drives the car softly has not noticed any steering problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_...Recommendation
http://www.industrycortex.com/datash...inal-dn-ha.pdf

Perhaps steering consistency is improved if ASR and ESC are disabled? I'll try to take a few drives with all the nannies off to see if it helps.

[millerrh]

Hi millerrh,
The Driver Steering Recommendation system is an example of a software feature that reacts differently per driver. When I drive the car more aggressively I find that the steering is "fighting" me. But my wife who drives the car softly has not noticed any steering problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_...Recommendation
http://www.industrycortex.com/datash...inal-dn-ha.pdf

It seems like these links refer to some specific set points, determined by Audi engineers, at which DSR nudging happens. These set points seem to be targeted at the extremes to force a driver to react to a hairy situation. But when I hear people talk about the car changing and learning it's almost like the engineers designed some sort or algorithm for steering that modifies itself based on the driver. I find this algorithm theory hard to believe in something so safety sensitive as steering. You'd think they would have hard limits as to when these sorts of things would kick in. And I can't believe straight-line tramlining would be part of this. So if there is some sort of evidence of some sort of learning algorithm I'd be interested in reading about it. Because from what I have read it seems more conjecture-based.