Some new summer vag com testing- APR 93 St 2 V2, GIAC 93 Stage 1, Revo 93 Stage 1

[tsivas27]

Hey guys- I am sure you know or have read about these types of threads... Felt like finally writing up some basic Vag Com comparisons today. Decided to take a break from the Vbox testing. The delay in posting was due to finally getting the V2 flash. The V2 flash was done via bench flash @ Elite Motorsports. Kai is a good guy. Audi enthusiast at heart.

This is a similar test to the post below done in the winter.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...evo-logs/page2

The cars tested were: APR Stage 2 V2 93 tune, GIAC Stage 1 93 tune, and the Revo Stage 1 93 tune

• We use the same strip of road that we vbox on. 0% decline/incline.
• Temps were in low to mid 70s for the runs. Air pressure was about 1015 mbar for these tests.
• Same parameters... Third gear log from 2000 RPMS to redline.
• The Revo Flash is their most up to date 93 tune, so is the GIAC.
• All cars were running pump gas.

Some quick comparisons of APR St 2 Version 1 to Version 2.



The boost difference is that drastic. Yes u feel it instantly and it pulls really hard to redline.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________





Good news is the bypass stays shut. I have to do some cold weather testing to see how it does in the winter, but I am sure the issue has been addressed.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________




Here is timing comparison of Version 1 and Version 2 in winter/summer and on 93 pump gas, as well as seeing how much different the timing is between the 100 file has
(Version 1) compared to the 93 file.

Seems like peak timing has been reduced with the new V 2.0 compared to Version 1. No codes came up on intial vag scan. From the timing logs below.. seems like the car can benefit from some more timing up top.


__________________________________________________ ______________________________



Here is graph comparing all 3 setups with Ignition Timing Angle. The Revo file definitely stands out and is running a little more timing than the other two.


__________________________________________________ _______________________________



Here I added the APR 100 St2 V1 file for fun to see where it was compared to the pump files.


__________________________________________________ ________________________________



Here is a comparison of Boost in PSI for all three setups. The APR stage 2 v2 setup definitely stands out.



__________________________________________________ _______________________________



Bypass Valve % between the 3 setups. The GIAC car seemed to open up slightly on all the runs we did.


__________________________________________________ _______________________________





Here are the APR St2 V2 timing runs. Seeing much less timing pull than the previous version. Looks pretty good.


__________________________________________________ ________________________________




Here is one of the timing runs for the GIAC Stage 1 car. They all looked pretty similar. Definitely pulls timing. Seems a bit much. No codes came up on inital vag scan. Ambient Temps weren't that bad when it was tested. Bad gas maybe?


__________________________________________________ _________________________________



Hey!! we finally saw some timing pull on the Revo Car. Could it be the new tune? Who knows. All I know is that this is the first time ever seeing timing pull on this car. DA was about +1900 that night. Temps were in the mid 70s. Car doesn't seem to run as well in the heat vs the winter time. This is also seen in the updated Vbox testing we have done. (see list below). There was a code on initial scan that we found- cylinder #5 misfire. We cleared and will monitor .

__________________________________________________ __________________________________

I will do some really thorough vag com testing one night with all three cars. This was just a basic logging session/code checking session I do usually before we do the vbox testing. Just like posting stuff up for u guys.

Stay tuned.

Oh and here is the Vbox database that we have compiled on our private test track.. Every car has been tested on same strip.

[You-S4-It]

Nice! All we need now is a run with the new Stasis tune...

[t0mt0m]

great info!
thanks for the write up

[Vogz]

Fantastic write up.

[Can_I_Haz?]

wow a post that is actually worthwhile. Hopefully it doesn't get theadjacked into a TD1 discussion

[dparm]

Nice! All we need now is a run with the new Stasis tune...

I'm betting with enough runs we will be able to tell which tune it actually is underneath.

[Akrion]

Great Work! Love the info.

Thanks for spending the time and sharing your results!

[staticuxo]

tsivas, i got the new STaSIS tune today.. let me know when you and Pete are available to log/box!

[dparm]

tsivas, i got the new STaSIS tune today.. let me know when you and Pete are available to log/box!

Find someone with the old one and run side by side at the strip. I'm curious if the difference is noticeable.

[Leor604]

Wow, this is what I call "service to the community". No bashing, no opinions, just plain old facts that will help members assess the risk/benefit ratio and make informed choices. Thank you.

[PsYkHoTiK]

+1 Good stuff as always tsivas27!

[Jones2012s4]

Contributions like this are greatly appreciated. The more you know.

Thanks tsivas27

[misc720]

Great stuff as always. Thanks.

[PaperishPlastic]

You the man keep up the good work.

[MrFunk]

Find someone with the old one and run side by side at the strip. I'm curious if the difference is noticeable.

Day & Night

[KayS4]

Great work your awesome guys!

Now wonder if the tuners can take this logged information and tweak our tunes make more out of them I am sure ARIN @APR can use this information to bring back to the boys!

[tsivas27]

There is more to be had from from the APR tune in the timing department. I will be logging more timing stuff as the heat continues. But 2.0 rocks.

[jeffc31337]

There is more to be had from from the APR tune in the timing department. I will be logging more timing stuff as the heat continues. But 2.0 rocks.

Great work man! Glad to see you are keeping up with the data logging on the S4. I *may* have an angle on getting the updated Stasis tune soon and when I do Ill post some logs of my car before and after

[tsivas27]

tsivas, i got the new STaSIS tune today.. let me know when you and Pete are available to log/box!

You got it.. you will get the encrypted text invite soon

[audisarecool]

You got it.. you will get the encrypted text invite soon

I accept the challenge

[tsivas27]

I accept the challenge

Yes we need some Stasis times for the list. Next time don't let off til I tell you to. LOL.

[RecklessactN]

Wow excellent data and side by side comparison tsivas27.

I have my thoughts on the information presented, but will keep to myself for now. (I used to tune :D)

Would like to know if you have any coolant temperature data from the tunes as well. Max and Cruising (after pull)

[dparm]

What exact blocks are you logging? Why did you select those? I would be more interested to monitor oil pressure and oil temps (and maybe coolant) as that's very indicative of the strains you're placing on the motor. PM me if you would like to dive deeper into this, as I am very well-versed in lubrication tech and triobology.

Not doubting you, just trying to understand your methods.

[tsivas27]

What exact blocks are you logging? Why did you select those? I would be more interested to monitor oil pressure and oil temps (and maybe coolant) as that's very indicative of the strains you're placing on the motor. PM me if you would like to dive deeper into this, as I am very well-versed in lubrication tech and triobology.

Not doubting you, just trying to understand your methods.

This was just a quick comparison. I will be doing a more detailed vag session with the three cars one night soon. Send over some blocks u want me to test. I will be looking at a ton of stuff.

[Vogz]

Tsivas27, do you have the vbox PerformanceBox that suctions to the windshield and has the integrated display? I'd love to test my Z's 60-130, but I'm in the midwest.

[Ralph]

Great info!

Question: Did you data log AFR on these also? Would be interesting to see as well.

[tsivas27]

Great info!

Question: Did you data log AFR on these also? Would be interesting to see as well.

I have in past comparison / link I included. Will in next one.

[tsivas27]

Tsivas27, do you have the vbox PerformanceBox that suctions to the windshield and has the integrated display? I'd love to test my Z's 60-130, but I'm in the midwest.

Yes it's the suction cup one.

[Vogz]

Yes it's the suction cup one.

Hmmm, I may have to pick one up...

[NeedQuattro]

Damn nice write up tsivas. The time you put into this stuff is greatly appreciated!
I was really contemplating which tune to get and it looks like APR V2 is the way to go right now.

[dawei213]

Can someone edumicate me?

So, if a tune pulls timing, what does it mean exactly? It is affecting the timing for the ignition of the spark plugs? And what does the scale mean? I see for the GIAC tune, the worst timing pull is nearly -7 while the Revo is nearly -5. What is the difference between the different values if one pulls a more negative timing than another? Is there any implication for this difference if consistent?

[NunyaBiz]

Yet another great, informative post. Keep the info coming!

Finally got updated to apr v2 yesterday and I agree that you do feel a slight difference...

[helix139]

Can someone edumicate me?

So, if a tune pulls timing, what does it mean exactly? It is affecting the timing for the ignition of the spark plugs? And what does the scale mean? I see for the GIAC tune, the worst timing pull is nearly -7 while the Revo is nearly -5. What is the difference between the different values if one pulls a more negative timing than another? Is there any implication for this difference if consistent?

Timing pull generally means the engine is trying to protect itself from knocking by retarding the timing (aka spark occuring when the rod isn't as close to vertical) due to a combination of factors such as insufficient octane, higher A/F mixture temps caused by high IATs, and/or incorrect AFRs. I could be wrong, but I believe there is a difference between timing pull (which is a normal adjustment to variations in the conditions listed previously) and the engine going into component protection mode and severely dropping power to prevent catastrophic failure. Timing pull generally will result in some reduction in power, though. The scale you see is usually in degrees of cam rotation.

[B8_Jim]

<snip>Here is graph comparing all 3 setups with Ignition Timing Angle. The Revo file definitely stands out and is running a little more timing than the other two.
<snip>

First - thanks for the very informative post !

Now - I thought I remembered APR saying that the Stage 2 tune ran a little bit less timing than the Stage 1 due to the higher boost. Anyone have any idea how much less? Not on the order of the APR to Revo difference? With that in mind it's interesting that APR runs roughly the same timing with stage 2 as GIAC is running for stage 1 (at least relative to Revo).

For the boost - given that all 3 are basically holding the bypass valve closed (with GIAC being a very minor exception) - boost is not controllable by the tunes, right? Thus the fact that the GIAC car (even with some bypass opening) had higher boost than the Revo is either just sensor bias or car-to-car differences, right?

[madmadS4]

Tsivas: awesome stuff. I'm going to write to the GIAC guys and complain about that bypass valve chart...

[tsivas27]

Tsivas: awesome stuff. I'm going to write to the GIAC guys and complain about that bypass valve chart...

LOL. It's a very small amount, and for such little time. I wouldn't bother. It's as close to 0% for majority of time as you can get. I will relog these cars in more detail soon. Could have been that day. It stays shut for 99% of the run. The chart is big in scale. The % is really small for most of the runs. Just looks amplified. It's a very small amount in reality.

[Arin@APR]

First - thanks for the very informative post !

I agree! I really love these technical threads.

Now - I thought I remembered APR saying that the Stage 2 tune ran a little bit less timing than the Stage 1 due to the higher boost. Anyone have any idea how much less?

If I'm not mistaken, it's around 2 deg across the board.

[ilspazzaneve]

2 degrees less timing on S2V2 compared to S2V1 is right. In my logs too, it looked like the V2 timing was never recalibrated in the new, higher intake mani pressure levels, at least when in cold conditions. There is still some juice left there.

As for Tsivas asking for more timing, well, I used to say that too. I'd settle for a couple degrees more, at similar temps and mani pressures.

A nice write up for sure.

[tsivas27]

2 degrees less timing on S2V2 compared to S2V1 is right. In my logs too, it looked like the V2 timing was never recalibrated in the new, higher intake mani pressure levels, at least when in cold conditions. There is still some juice left there.

As for Tsivas asking for more timing, well, I used to say that too. I'd settle for a couple degrees more, at similar temps and mani pressures.

A nice write up for sure.

Thanks bud.

yes just a few degrees. nothing crazy. I will post up a stock timing log of Pete's car we did before he was tuned when I get home. Talk about scary lol.

[Kai@EliteMS]

Great write up, enjoy the car Tsivas. I love these comparison threads, no complaining. It states whats what. No excuses.