Rdrcr's A3 Build Thread.

[Small_A3]

You are right-on about the tuners untruthful advertising when it comes to the actual gains. I am in total agreement with you in that they should take a stock car and dyno it right before and right after the flash with the "same octane gas" and report the peak HP-gain at the wheels. If it's +26HP, so be it, this is the only true measure of gains, period!

From the APR site:

http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_up...fsi_trans.html

Their dyno plot shows the stock-car horsepower is 212-CHP (not 200-CHP as per manufacturer's claim) and their stage-I tune as 252-CHP on 93-gas! This reading occurs at about 6000 RPM. It's not clear from their website if the before-and-after were on the same gas (i.e., 93) and this had me wondering why they wouldn't make this clear to the public. Since you are claiming 212-CHP on 91 octane BEFORE you added your tune, let's assume that APR was somewhat dishonest and dyno-tested their stock car with 91-octane to show a bigger HP gain relative to the after-flash result which they got with 93-octane. Now scrolling further down the page you see a table for the A3 which at 91-octane reads 246-CHP. If we believe this table, the difference at 91 is thus 246-212 = 34 horses at crank. Assuming 15% drivetrain loss (conservative) we can estimate the gain at the wheels to be 34*0.85 = 28.9. So I would expect to see about 29-WHP difference in my dyno results right after the APR tune if I were to buy it. This number is just a little bit larger than yours which makes it somewhat believable.

I would feel much more comfortable if these tuners gave us the truth up front: i.e., "we have measured +29 WHP under these conditions" rather than the BS that's going now. But in the larger scheme of things if you believe that all the good tuners have pretty much the same know-how about our engine they will produce comparable performance so the choice becomes one of ease-of-doing it and secondary features. Let's face it, getting 30 more HP for $600 is a steal considering that the next 30 HP you will try to add will cost much much more.

I have to confess that I lack the skills and also the "excitement" in doing work on my own car preferring instead to drive to a reasonably-priced shop to get it done by someone who is supposed to know what they are doing. This is why I still think APR maybe the best bet for me due to their easily accessible local dealer network. Also, they perform the flash in one visit on the spot without the back-and-forth you have with the others.

[Rdrcr]

^^^^^^
Agreed.

As I said in my original Stage 1 review, I would much rather see Tuners advertise their gains in WHP/WTQ figures especially since their crank numbers are derived from them. They totally have the ability to include and specify which dyno used and the various conditions that they experienced during the testing. If these results were published, the consumer can then make an educated decision and comparison (unlike what we have today) using real accurate numbers.

GIAC is the only Tuner that I’ve seen post actual WHP/WTQ results for their Stage 1 Tune on 91 octane (in this case 216WHP/234WTQ…almost identical to the numbers I made). But, of course they don’t post this information on their website for advertising purposes. This information can only by found on an online enthusiast forum. It sucks that you have to search for the truth rather than have a company openly advertise it.
However, in GIAC’s defense, no other Tuner is offering this information…and, for the most part, it is pretty misunderstood by most the VW/Audi community which is one of the reasons WHP/WTQ figures aren't published. I’ve experienced this issue with my own reviews. I’ve posted the WHP/WTQ gains of my Stage 1 Tune and it seems that folks get confused with APR’s advertising results and real results. I’ve been asked constantly why did my HPA tune make so little? The truth is that the APR Tune didn’t make those numbers. Those numbers are inflated and the real APR WHP/WTQ numbers are very similar to the gains I’ve witnessed with HPA Tune.

It is funny you mention that APR’s Tune is the most ‘conservative’ Tune because their website advertises their Stage 1 Tune as making more power than any other Tuner (well, with the exception of a few). On their website, they claim that they use a correction factor of 10% which is complete BS. I prefer using a correction factor of 12%. Ironically, GIAC is supposed to be a more aggressive Tune, more aggressive than APR at least. Yet, as I stated above, GIAC’s Stage 1 Tune makes 216WHP/234WTQ and APR’s own advertising states that their Stage 1 Tune should produce 225WHP/265WTQ on 91 octane, which is a complete fabrication because it doesn’t. If a 12% correction factor is used we’ll get 220WHP/258WTQ which is much more accurate. However, I still haven’t seen those numbers from an APR Stage 1 Tune without an intake and never on 91 octane.

I have researched plenty, far more than most. And the reality is that most, if not all the Tuners are making roughly the same amount of WHP/WTQ with their Stage 1 Tunes +/- 5WHP, +/- 10WTQ.

Trust me, if you can send an email, you can Tune your own car. It really is that easy.

Regardless, however, you simply can’t beat the power you can unleash with ANY Tune. I recommend them all.

Mike

[Small_A3]

Mike,

Very much in agreement regarding your point that most tunes (at least from the "respected" tuners) will provide about the same gains. A couple more things:

If I may ask, how much does your guy in Camarillo charge for a dyno pull? I am thinking of getting a before-and-after dyno as well just to see the difference of the APR tune. They have a nice shopping mall there and I was thinking of taking the drive anyway to do some shopping for the coming holidays.

I just finished reading your review of the Carbonio and I must admit that I was not impressed by your dyno gains. In fact, looking at your before-and-after dyno at lower RPMs I think I prefer to stock intake. The question is: Does the APR tune take better advantage of the Carbonio than the other tunes? I am asking this because I saw a post to one of your threads by the APR guy who seemed to be surprised about your result (I think he expected better performance) and he was pointing to your choice of tune (HPA) as the culprit. For now I am skipping the Carbonio while researching some more.

I also read your HPA Stage-II DSG S/W review, very impressive and thorough. [You my friend are very talented in providing simple explanations for things you research.] However, unlike you I am one of those guys who rarely uses the M-mode (manual shifting). On the streets I put it on S-mode and for freeway cruising I set it on D-mode. In your opinion, is it worth for me getting the HPA stage-2 DSG S/W at $900 or even their stage-3 DSG at $2000? These numbers come from their website here: http://www.hpamotorsport.com/dsg-stages.htm The other company I am now researching for DSG SW is Unitronic: http://www.unitronic-chipped.com/ecu...urbo-2009-2010 Their Stage-1 is $500 while their Stage-2 is $600. So HPA appears be pricing their products consistently higher across the board relative to their competition and it's not clear to me yet whether they truly deserve the extra $$. I just now started to research the Unitronic DSG SW, if you already done that, please share your views on them. (As you can see I am new at this but ... "thirsty for knowledge").

One final thing I want to mention is that it's becoming clear to me that to get the first +30 WHP you only need spend $600 but to get the next +30 WHP you need to spend north of $2500 (HPFP, full exhaust, stage-2 S/W, Install $) which is 4X-5X the dollars of the stage 1 tune. After that comes the turbo upgrade, to get you close to 300 WHP but once you go for that you will also need other mods just to keep the car's added power "in balance" with the rest of it. It seems to me that the low hanging fruit is the stage-I tune which is a must for this car but it's not clear to me that the stage-II or stage-III is worth the $$, effort, and risk due to the added stress on the engine and drivetrain.

Thx again for providing this great forum for discussion.

[Rdrcr]

^^^^^
EFI West charges $80 for three dyno pulls which, is extremely reasonable (most charge $100). However, unfortunately, they have moved from their Camarillo location to another location near El Monte.

I would love, love to see a before and after pull comparing stock vs. APR Stage 1. You would be one of the first to actually post and share those results.

I wasn’t impressed with my APR Carbonio results either. The gains in the upper RPM’s didn’t surprise me but, I was very disappointed with the losses in the low-mid RPM’s. Please keep in mind that the intake was installed on the dyno and I didn’t drive the car to allow the ECU to adequately adjust to the new intake (we just installed it, started the car, and dyno’d it). The intake obviously didn’t hurt the 100 octane performance. However, I have been contacted by several members on another forum, with different Stage 1 Tunes (APR, & GIAC), that have experienced the same results. Ironically though, the intake did enable the stock turbo to spool quicker and allow for more boost throughout the RPM range. Strangely, it just didn’t translate to power. Take it for what it is worth but, I’ve heard that the design is the problem and that it causes false MAF readings which is why the intake doesn’t hold or make additional power in the low-mid RPM’s.

Personally, I don’t think any intake will help or improve the 2.0T’s performance until Stage 2 or a turbo upgrade.

I do believe that HPA offers the BEST software for the DSG. However, if you don’t use M-mode, then their Stage 2 upgrade will not be worth your money and their Stage 3 is simply too expensive. I think I was very fair in my review to point out that the competition offers changes to D and S modes while HPA only changes S mode. Many enthusiasts want improvements to D mode, especially if they are paying $800. I would recommend that look into GIAC or Unitronic for a DSG Tune. Both the GIAC and Unitronic DSG Tunes have favorable reviews but, we don’t really know about the longevity of their DSG upgrades. HPA has been doing it the longest. They have more knowledge regarding the DSG compared to the competition. They have an excellent relationship with VW/Audi OEM. They are the only company that is using the DSG for professional racing. I think they have earned the right to charge a small premium for their software. They have my support for anything DSG.

There are very few cars on the market where you can get an extra 30WHP for such little money. I’ll take that any day. You are correct that the next 30WHP + requires a much larger investment. But, I still feel that $3K is cheap for 300WHP/300WTQ.
The HPFP is required the ’08 and older FSI 2.0T engines. I don’t believe our ’09 A3’s require that costly upgrade.

I’m not sure how I feel about Stage 2 being worth the money for the gains but, I know the K04 would be worth the cost. In addition, you’ll lose a little power but, you don’t NEED to replace the OEM down-pipe or exhaust with the K04…the stock stuff will work.

Mike

[Rdrcr]

As sure as the sun rises, there exists one performance modification that was inevitably going to be added to my 2009 Audi A3, the S2T Performance DSG paddle shifters.

I drive my A3 exclusively in Manual mode. So, I use my OEM paddle shifters a lot. I think it is because I use them so often is the reason I feel that there should be some improvements made to the OEM construction and design. With the HPA DSG Stage 2 upgrade installed and the transmission performing perfectly, I need, absolutely need, the best paddle shifters to compliment the DSG’s performance.
I believe the S2T Performance paddle shifters are the perfect paddle shifter.

The Audi OEM paddle shifters are functional and extremely enjoyable to use but, I believe that they should be a little larger and better designed, not just for spirited driving but, also for daily driving, especially at slow-speeds when I am turning and shifting at the same time. In addition, even with the bright finish, the OEM paddle shifters look and feel cheap. So, it would be nice to have a paddle shifter that not only looks and feels great but, also, a quality product which matches the rich interior appointments of the A3.

The S2T Performance paddle shifters are CNC machined from real aerospace quality 6061 T6 aluminum and they bolt-on, like a real OEM part. Most of the other paddle shifters available for the A3 and other Audi vehicles glue on with adhesive tapes. I’ll admit that there are some really nice and good-looking glue-on paddle shifters but, Screw that! I personally don’t want to ‘glue’ anything on my car. I want a real replacement part, a bolt-on part, a factory-like part, only better.

I bought a set of S2T Performance paddle shifters in the custom polished clear anodized finish as a special order. The custom hand-polished finish was an extra $40, so they were pricey but, I’ve owned their product before and I know their paddle shifters are worth the cost and the additional expense. Moreover, and perhaps more importantly, their design, CNC machining, craftsmanship, quality, attention-to-detail, execution, and anodized finishes are near flawless.

It seems that many enthusiasts feel that the installation of the S2T Performance paddle shifters is intimidating and/or, too difficult but, it doesn’t take any special skills, tools, or knowledge to successfully complete the installation. Trusting on my past paddle-shifter-install experience, I was expecting the most time consuming part of this install was going to be disconnecting the negative battery cable and the toughest part being the removal of the steering wheel airbag. But, my install didn’t initially go quite as I had planned...

The steering wheel airbag and switches were removed easily enough but, when I dissected the OEM shifter switch and installed the S2T shifter, I had a difficult time inserting the pin all the way through the paddle shifter. I had to press both ends of the shifter assembly, at different times, before the pin could be successfully installed. Then, it took some massaging to get the new S2T paddle shifter to mate properly with the plastic OEM switch in order for the whole assembly to ‘click’ as expected (I should also note that I did not reinstall the OEM paddle shifters springs for my installation as instructed…I actually prefer the feel without them installed) but, eventually I got it working. Finally, with the new S2T shifters assembled and functioning, I reinstalled the remaining switches, followed by the final step, the reinstallation of the airbag (my airbag for some reason, decided to give me a rather frustrating fight...but, ultimately, I got it secured and won the fight!).

My first test drive delivered disappointing results. With the S2T paddles in place, it took way too much force to pull on the paddle shifters to engage each shift. After some additional time behind the wheel, the paddles did begin to loosen and function better but, still not what I wanted, or expected.

I decided to double-check my install and make sure that I didn’t make some foolish error. Once again, the airbag, switches, and paddles shifters were removed enabling me to inspect my work. I found that both paddle shifters weren’t engaging the OEM switch properly. After some further investigation I found that the contact point on the S2T paddle shifters was not touching the OEM switch like it should. I added several small pieces of stacked electrical tape and stuck them to the contact point on the S2T shifter and…surprise, the S2T paddles work perfectly. Satisfied with my discovery and fix, I reinstalled everything. But, of course, the airbag gave me another fight! It truly doesn’t like me. But, I gave him the business! The bastard!

My follow-up test drive was a success.
More on that later…

The hardest part of the installation was removing and reinstalling the OEM paddle shifter pins and battling with my stubborn airbag (with the exception of having to trouble-shoot the issues I experienced…I notified S2T Performance of my troubles and they sent me a special tape that would replace my electrical tape solution. Cool! Plus, they promised that all future kits would be supplied with it). Believe it or not, the complete installation process took me less than 30 minutes (of course I did have to do it a few times). In the end, easy stuff.

A couple pics of my hard work!

Before:

After:


And…another after shot:


The appearance and fitment of the S2T Audi DSG paddle shifters is virtually 100% OEM. The polish clear anodized finish is almost an exact match to the brilliant interior trim found on the steering wheel and elsewhere on the dash and console areas. The new Paddle Shifters really compliment the A3’s interior appointments.
The S2T paddle shifters feel solid, comfortable, and refined. They engage the factory shifter switch perfectly. Their function is smooth and effortless. They still have the ‘click’ feel but, the engagement is better, more fluid and more natural. Each shift is engaged with confidence, comfort, and precision. The overall paddle shifter design is excellent. You can press anywhere on the paddle shifter and get an immediate response from the shifter switch. With the S2T Performance shifters installed I no longer have to search for the paddles while I’m driving. I don’t have to move my hands around, or shift with my pinky fingers. My fingers always find the S2T paddle shifters in the right place at the right time regardless of the driving situation. That’s what I’m talking about! The S2T paddle shifters should be factory equipment.

Comparing the S2T Performance paddle shifters with the OEM paddle shifters… Wait! You can’t! The stock paddles are pathetic! They are unusable once you try the S2T paddles. The S2T paddles are in another league, perhaps another world. They are incomparable with the OEM paddles. They are exceedingly better than the OEM paddle shifters in every facet of their creation.

Furthermore, driving in Manual mode is simply not the same with the S2T paddle shifters installed. These things make driving so much more fun! I am always using the paddles. I’m finding excuses to downshift and reasons to upshift, just for the heck of it! Believe me, with these shifters you will always drive your car in Manual mode! You truly need to see, feel, and experience these paddle shifters in person to really understand how they change and improve the driving experience. They might not make my A3 any faster around a race track but, they really make my driving experience that much more enjoyable. I have a permanent smile on my face every time I drive my A3.

S2T Performance Products brings together an omnipotent combination of quality, craftsmanship, aesthetics, value, and performance. In my R32 the S2T paddles were my favorite modification. I don’t know if I can put them into that same category with my A3. You see, with the 2.0T, I can’t discount, or begin to tell you how cool it is to be able to gain so much power from a simple Stage 1 ECU Tune, especially for the price. A Stage 1 Tune is the best bang-for-your-buck out there! But, even I can’t use the awesome HPA Stage 1 power all-the-time but, I can use my new S2T paddle shifters all-the-time. So, the S2T paddle shifters are definitely my favorite, non-power modification. I think that is fair.

If you spend any time driving in Manual mode, I highly recommend a set of S2T Performance paddle shifters.

Mike

[Small_A3]

I am not so sure that we can get to 300 WHP by spending only $3000. Check out this guy, he has a 2011 Audi A3 DSG with upgraded K04 turbo, APR software, S3 intercooler, and custom BB downpipe and he is barely "touching" the 250 WHP power level. To get to 300 WHP we probably need more stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1ca_pBOP3A

Regarding the need for upgrading the HPFP in our 2.0TFSI, I found this little nugget: "We found that the stock fuel system maxes out at crank 350HP on 91 octane, which translates to about 15-16 psi max on this turbo kit." From: http://ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php..._detail&p=1315 So you are again correct Mike, we should be able to go to 300 WHP without paying an extra $1K for the upgraded high pressure fuel pump. My question for you is how much power do you think our cars will make at the wheels with ONLY K04-plus-Software (i.e., skip the DP, new exhaust, HPFP, IC, etc ...)? I doubt it will be 300 WHP but you probably know better than me.

Regarding the DSG flash, my brief research confirms that HPA is in fact the leader with the most knowledge in this area. But I am still trying to find who has the "right deal" for me because in the case where the Manual Mode is rarely engaged HPA may not be best. I actually find HPA's Stage 3-4 DSG pricing downright outrageous at $2K-$2.5K considering that this kind of money can deliver most of the K04 turbokit upgrade. [But for those who bought it I am sure it's like manna from heaven.] However, I would gladly pay their price for stage 2 if they had improved the D-mode and your review says that they didn't. In fact I just sent them an email on this, looking forward to hearing back. On the other hand the GIAC DSG flash has some descent reviews out there --I haven't found the bad ones yet :-) In fact GIAC pricing is cheaper, they appear to improve all D,S,M modes and have a holiday special at the moment when you buy both their ECU tune and Stage-1 DSG program. On the other hand APR appears to be the leader in ECU reprogramming so I am still trying to figure out what I want to do.

[Rdrcr]

^^^^^
I highly recommend the 100 octane software! I'm really looking forward to my W/M upgrade...100 octane...all-the-time!

I am not so sure that we can get to 300 WHP by spending only $3000. Check out this guy, he has a 2011 Audi A3 DSG with upgraded K04 turbo, APR software, S3 intercooler, and custom BB downpipe and he is barely "touching" the 250 WHP power level. To get to 300 WHP we probably need more stuff.

Regarding the need for upgrading the HPFP in our 2.0TFSI, I found this little nugget: "We found that the stock fuel system maxes out at crank 350HP on 91 octane, which translates to about 15-16 psi max on this turbo kit." From: http://ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php..._detail&p=1315 So you are again correct Mike, we should be able to go to 300 WHP without paying an extra $1K for the upgraded high pressure fuel pump. My question for you is how much power do you think our cars will make at the wheels with ONLY K04-plus-Software (i.e., skip the DP, new exhaust, HPFP, IC, etc ...)? I doubt it will be 300 WHP but you probably know better than me.

Regarding the DSG flash, my brief research confirms that HPA is in fact the leader with the most knowledge in this area. But I am still trying to find who has the "right deal" for me because in the case where the Manual Mode is rarely engaged HPA may not be best. I actually find HPA's Stage 3-4 DSG pricing downright outrageous at $2K-$2.5K considering that this kind of money can deliver most of the K04 turbokit upgrade. [But for those who bought it I am sure it's like manna from heaven.] However, I would gladly pay their price for stage 2 if they had improved the D-mode and your review says that they didn't. In fact I just sent them an email on this, looking forward to hearing back. On the other hand the GIAC DSG flash has some descent reviews out there --I haven't found the bad ones yet :-) In fact GIAC pricing is cheaper, they appear to improve all D,S,M modes and have a holiday special at the moment when you buy both their ECU tune and Stage-1 DSG program. On the other hand APR appears to be the leader in ECU reprogramming so I am still trying to figure out what I want to do.

I can’t access that link from work…

AWD?

Due to the additional drivetrain losses, the AWD’s always produce lower numbers on a dyno when compared to a FWD. The AWD bragging-rights come on the track when the comparable FWD car is smoking the tires and screaming for traction.

On a FWD car, 300WHP/300WTQ is attainable with a K04 setup (with software), intake, intercooler, down-pipe, exhaust, and either W/M or 100 octane.
Considering what my car currently produces, I don’t think I’ll have too much trouble achieving the 300WHP mark with the HPA K04 setup, S3 intercooler, down-pipe, and W/M (I'm not doing exhaust).

Don’t hold your breath for APR's DSG software. They’ve been saying for years that they are going to release DSG software but, they never do. Eventually, one of these days it will happen but, in the meantime, I’d suggest going with another Tuner if you want the programming. In your case, I’d definitely recommend the GIAC or, Unitronic DSG software.

Mike

[Small_A3]

Mike,

I would really like to get your input on getting myself to "Stage-1" in the next few days. Right now my 1st choice is to marry APR ECU + GIAC DSG given the "fully loaded Stage-1" APR holiday sale just announced at $599: http://www.goapr.com/news/2012/11/22...december-31st/ I am certainly not waiting on APR to release DSG S/W and currently leaning to GIAC for that part. But here is my current list in the order of preference:

(1) APR ECU flash + GIAC DSG flash (Stage-1) --Current Top Choice

(2) APR ECU flash + HPA DSG flash (Stage-2) --Waiting on Kier's reply re: D-mode improvement

(3) GIAC ECU flash + GIAC DSG flash (Stage-1) --Combines same-company products at "nice" price

(4) HPA ECU flash + HPA DSG flash (Stage-2) --Mike's choice, most expensive option

(5) APR ECU flash + NO DSG flash (Wait for APR's DSG S/W) --Baby steps

In a few months I will most likely be adding the K04 turbo upgrade and the APR kit seems to be the most mature so ease-of-upgrading to that is a factor in my Stage-1 thoughts above.

As for fuel I will almost always be running 91-gas, no methanol stuff or tinkering with octane mixtures like a chemical engineer. Too much of a cheapskate to be running race gas all the time at $8.50/gal and too chicken to mesh with W/M. I might just have to ultimately settle for 250 WHP as the ultimate goal for this car since reliability and day-to-day driveability is a major concern.

Anyway, I would very much like your input on my stage-1 thoughts above.

PS: I am surprised you are at work today, everyone I know has taken off the day-after-Thxgiving :-)