**New from JHM: Timing Chain Service Kits for the B6-B7 S4 4.2L V8!**

[dparm]

I also do not agree with the phrase that Audi service departments recommend this.

[jdmnomore]

I don't have any issue with Nitro1's beef with the post. I don't find it ridiculous at all. I'm sure the kit is great. I think he is pointing out that JHM is being a little loose with the "recommends" part of the advert. I feel your being a little generous and defensive with the "numerous sources to develop this kit...", c'mon they put together upgraded replacement parts in a package. I doubt a lot of R&D went into this. All that being said I think it's great they have made it easy for those who need it. Through some creative advertising they will probably sell a few kits to those who don't as well. I tend to lean on the side of the skeptic with this particular kit as a preventative service but I don't fault anyone for buying it. People get so touchy with JHM. We all know they are a good company but people get slammed on this board anytime they don't drink the kool aid.

I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. First Im not trying to say tons of R&D went into developing this kit or kits. Im saying JHM has dealt with tons of customers who have had their own experiences with Audi/Indy shops as well as numerous other sources which led them to piece together this product. I am not one of those fanbois, I am someone who had my engine fail at 75k. This was an engine with practically no rattle, no consumption oil changed every 4k etc. If i'd reached 100k I may have ignored the warnings but having experienced what Im currently going through I would absolutely reccomend to look at at least the intermediate service at around the same time youre looking at doing your clutch/fly/mounts etc. Again Im referring MAINLY to 04-05 models as I guess the jury is still out on B7s.

I dont feel JHM has tried to be misleading at all as they represent the same stance as anyone who has gone through this before. Bottom line is most Audi Svc Depts may not reccomend this service but some definitely do and ALL of them should at least mention this. Anything after 100k and youre playing with fire imo. Again on 04-05s. Not sure about the later builds.

[Nitro1]

I don't have any issue with Nitro1's beef with the post. I don't find it ridiculous at all. I'm sure the kit is great. I think he is pointing out that JHM is being a little loose with the "recommends" part of the advert. I feel your being a little generous and defensive with the "numerous sources to develop this kit...", c'mon they put together upgraded replacement parts in a package. I doubt a lot of R&D went into this. All that being said I think it's great they have made it easy for those who need it. Through some creative advertising they will probably sell a few kits to those who don't as well. I tend to lean on the side of the skeptic with this particular kit as a preventative service but I don't fault anyone for buying it. People get so touchy with JHM. We all know they are a good company but people get slammed on this board anytime they don't drink the kool aid.

Exactly! I have no issue with JHM, just issue on how this kit is "preventative" and the service is "recommended at 100K"
when its exactly what you would be buying if $hit hit the fan at 60k, 120k, 150k, 200k. People look to JHM as the leaders for our car, and I felt that this statement made by someone at JHM (Audi recommends) is just not true. Thats all...not slamming JHM...not slamming their products...not even slamming this kit...Just the statement really bothered me.

[jdmnomore]

Exactly! I have no issue with JHM, just issue on how this kit is "preventative" and the service is "recommended at 100K"
when its exactly what you would be buying if $hit hit the fan at 60k, 120k, 150k, 200k. People look to JHM as the leaders for our car, and I felt that this statement made by someone at JHM (Audi recommends) is just not true. Thats all...not slamming JHM...not slamming their products...not even slamming this kit...Just the statement really bothered me.

I hear you, and all im saying is its nothing to get pissed over. There are two sides on this issue. A few years ago the one side was at some point you MAY have to replace guides/tensioners etc but that shouldnt be until well over 100k and this really applied only to early builds. The other side that emerged after years of failure after failure being documented is that this item should be addressed as preventative maintenance for all cars ESPECIALLY early builds at or around 100k. Its funny because plenty of people still vouch for the earlier argument but I bet if they were shopping S4s they wouldnt consider a high mileage car w/o budgeting for this service. Id like to think that B7 owners can go with the earlier theory and not worry about this until closer to 150k or so but B6 owners nearing the 100k mark should be a bit more pro active and I think this is pretty in line with what JHM is saying.

[ilko]

I also do not agree with the phrase that Audi service departments recommend this.

+1

[Lefthook]

Lol don't feel bad I'm getting a new motor next week due to low compression/oil consumption. I feel your pain.

I have 98,xxx miles on my Avant. It's consuming oil but at this point I'm not chasing an 8k (plus!) repair over 50 bucks worth of oil every 6 months.

Now, if I had AoA over some kind of barrel and there was a shot at getting a new motor like you are, I'd be all over it, hahahaa

[jaybquick@JHM]

Sorry guys for my delayed presence in this thread. With the move still keeping me busy with equipment setup, purchases, etc to fill out our new spot, our Grand Opening, going to and planning for Wuste with my crew and overall daily running of JHM and continuing to work on B6-B7 S4 products for you guys I am just behind. So I apologize for now love lately as well here on the boards.

My lack of presence lately is also due to all of your wonderful support of JHM and drowning us in phone calls, emails and PMs. So about 2 years ago I began to really concentrate on training and building a strong team of guys to support you when you call, email or PM. I didn't just want to go on a hiring frenzy and have someone with no knowledge or training assisting you. So even though we have been behind for a couple years we are getting near caught up with a additional sales employees. Unfortunately I couldn't hire 4 or 5 guys right out of the gate since it takes time to slowly show each guy the JHM way and make sure they learn something new every day. Once again thanks everyone for your support, I am doing my best to move forward with better support and more V8 specific products.

So here is a clarification on what my guys put in the product description that has already been updated. Sorry for it being too short and not clarified properly. Ultimately it is my fault for not grooming this thread with a fine tooth comb sooner. But it is a non issue about the 100k since many fail prior or act up prior to 100k as well.

Here is what I updated all the product pages and first post with.

The local Audi service departments we talk to recommend performing this service when your vehicle reaches 100,000 miles, with that being said we've seen symptoms of various forms of timing chain failures much sooner than that. With that being said the chain system on these cars should technically last the 'lifetime" of the car but unfortunately for our customers the engineers who designed this setup were wrong and failures occur regularly much earlier than even 100k. We are just here to help with parts and information to help you make your own decision based on the actual facts of what happened with these cars in the real world. This is in addition to the calls we receive from our customers on a weekly basis regarding some form of timing chain issue with their car. We have regularly seen the famous chain knock on cold start with cars that are quite new. This has been accepted by most due to its normalcy. The big concern is when they knock on warm restarts and can slap and damage other components or collapse at high rpm. We have also seen complete failures of guides and or the mechanical cam adjuster as early as 50k to 80k. Guide failures can lead to more damage to other components. If you have one mechanical cam adjuster fail, it causes one half of the motor to miss fire and sometimes damages the very pricey electric cam adjuster actuator which is included in our FULL and FULL plus kit. With that being said if your car has made it to 100k with minor or no issues it isn't a bad idea to do the service regardless to prevent damage to other components or getting stranded by a car running on half the cylinders. We see and hear of VERY few that fail in the 110k plus range. That doesn't mean they don't last on some cars, we just get more calls and local work on cars under 100k.

Sorry for rambling, I just wanted to get you guys updated and clarified regarding the above concerns. Plus I am still recovering from Wuste and Las Vegas and virtually no sleep.

Thanks again everyone and also to those who have ordered kits thus far.

[jaybquick@JHM]

TECH INFO REGARDING THESE KITS AND ASSISTANCE IN DIAGNOSIS. Come back for updates. I also made a new thread for ease of search and I will also update my second post in this section so all this info will be on the first page. I will do my best to bring more info and some pics soon.


CODES WE NORMALLY SEE FOR THE MECHANICAL ADJUSTER FAILURE ON ONE SIDE OF THE MOTOR.

9 Faults Found:

16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 001 - - MIL ON
16690 - Cylinder 6
P0306 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16691 - Cylinder 7
P0307 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16689 - Cylinder 5
P0305 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16686 - Cylinder 2
P0302 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16692 - Cylinder 8
P0308 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
17755 - Camshaft Position Sensor 2 (G163) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P1347 - 002 - Incor. Correl. - MIL ON
16730 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G163)
P0346 - 004 - Implausible Signal - MIL ON
16490 - Manifold / Barometric Pressure Sensor (G71) / (F96)
P0106 - 008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent

So what does this indicate? I will explain.
1. The random multiple missfire is just indicating that it saw more than one cylinder missfire at a given time.
2. The missfires for cylinders 5,6,7,8 indicates that BANK 2, the drivers side of the motor is missfiring. This is the first indicator of the infamous mechanical cam adjuster failure in our intermediate kit.
3. You will also notice that in this particular case it missfired on cylinder 2. This is caused by the fact that half the motor is basically dead and it works harder thus making cylinders on the other side harder to fire if everything isn't 100% perfect (compression, spark plug, coil, injector, etc)
4. The Camshaft Position Sensor code for "Incorrect Correlation" is the dead give away. It is telling you that either the cam is out of phase mechanically or someone put the reluctor wheel on wrong on the end of the adjuster that the sensor reads. NOTE: This code usually takes time to occur. Your generally get the next code first that causes people to jump the gun and buy a cam sensor. Unfortunately these RARELY fail.
5. The Camshaft Position Sensor code for "Implausible Signal" makes you think it is a bad sensor and is the first code that occurs in most cases. So don't jump the gun and swap the sensor. Using Ross-Tech log blocks 091, 092 and 093 and email them to us at [email protected] and my guys will make sure that I look at the log to help assist in diagnosis.
6. Is another code that doesn't always occur. Your car does not have a Baro sensor but uses the MAF to calculate it. This code is caused by the excess reversion of air coming back into the intake from the cams being out and throwing it off. Yes you can get this code for a bad MAF but much of the time it is does to a timing chain issue or other major mechanical failure and accompanied by other codes.

So with this car we did a complete chain job because of the bad adjuster and this car also clacked really bad even on a hot restart. After doing the chain job ALL codes did not return. We did inform the customer that if the cylinder 2 missfire or MAF code came back since we can't 100% confirm they are good or bad due to the obvious major mechanical failure we would then need to charge for further diagnosis.

Furthermore we did a compression test on this car and got compression in the 75 to 110 psi range on all 4 cylinders on Bank 2 which is low, also a dead give away of a mechanical failure.

Bottom line if you have cam sensor codes, check compression and get us those logs. If your compression is fine and you don't have a Correlation code then most likely it is only a sensor or wiring to it. WOOHOO, that would be nice huh?

Also if you had this issue on Bank 1 the codes would have the same description for the cam but be a different number for the other bank. Also your missfires would be on cylinder 1,2,3,4 and those codes would be different.



KIT SUMMARY AND ADDITIONAL INFO FROM JHM
We have not seen the chains fail. The Electric Cam Adjuster Actuators are the lowest failure rate behind the chains since we haven't seen a broken chain yet. The usually only fail if the mechanical adjuster gets really bad and chews it up. They do have a small guide on them that is not replaceable, however most cars around 100k show very little wear. So if yours is worn you should replace it. The accessory chain guide on the other hand wears BADLY on average. The Mechanical adjusters fail most prevalently giving the cam codes I posted above depending on the bank. Also one of the main guides is hairline cracked, cracked or busted on ALL the jobs we have done. So that is why the minimal kit has guides and tensioners for low mileage guys. That way they address the tensioners for the clack and the guides for the updated parts.

Also we put the chains as an option since even back in the 90s and prior, overhead cam chains were known for going 300k plus (for example the 4.6l ford V8 for a closer match to this). Their chains were longer and I doubt made as well since I haven't touched a mustang in many years and don't care to any more. :) But as you know many people believe in changing EVERYTHING in there due to piece of mind and saving on labor. That is why we give chains as an option for all kits.

The minimal kit is for those with low mileage and just the annoying morning start up clack. Except there is no guarantee that the mechanical adjusters in the intermediate kit won't fail down the road since we have seen those go as early as around 50k.

The intermediate kit is going to be for most customers so they don't have to worry about mechanical adjuster failures and the associated missfires in half the engine and cam codes even after changing the other parts and having to take it apart again.

The full kit will be for HIGH mileage cars in the 100k plus range where their guides look worn. With that being said, most of the cars we see in the 110k to 120k range still look good. So it may be cars in the mid to high 100k cars that it will be required. Also the high mileage kit is for those ONE AND DONE kind of guys.

Once again we recommend replacing EVERYTHING for piece of mind and to avoid taking or paying to take the car apart again and spending more in the long run. We could just only sell a full kit but we know everyone likes honest information from us based on actual experience. Plus this makes your own decision based on the condition of the parts, how it was driven and how long you plan on keeping it easier to pick the right kit for you.

[jaybquick@JHM]

JHM,

Has the chains been measured for elongation? Are the electrical adjustors prone or known for failure? The mechanical tensioners, are these known for failure? I would think that if synthetic oil is used and not allowed to be over-used that the cylinder bore and seals on these pensioners should last quite a long time.

Definitely interested, timing chain components are on my list of things to do when it gets parked for the winter.

We have not seen the chains fail and I have stacks of them with different mileage that I need to measure and compare. The Electric Cam Adjuster Actuators are the lowest failure rate behind the chains since we haven't seen a broken chain yet. The usually only fail if the mechanical adjuster gets really bad and chews it up. They do have a small guide on them that is not replaceable, however most cars around 100k show very little wear. So if yours is worn you should replace it. The accessory chain guide on the other hand wears BADLY on average. The Mechanical adjusters fail most prevalently giving the cam codes I posted above depending on the bank. Also one of the main guides is hairline cracked, cracked or busted on ALL the jobs we have done. So that is why the minimal kit has guides and tensioners for low mileage guys. That way they address the tensioners for the clack and the guides for the updated parts.

Also we put the chains as an option since even back in the 90s and prior, overhead cam chains were known for going 300k plus (for example the 4.6l ford V8 for a closer match to this). Their chains were longer and I doubt made as well since I haven't touched a mustang in many years and don't care to any more. :) But as you know many people believe in changing EVERYTHING in there due to piece of mind and saving on labor. That is why we give chains as an option for all kits.

The minimal kit is for those with low mileage and just the annoying morning start up clack. Except there is no guarantee that the mechanical adjusters in the intermediate kit won't fail down the road since we have seen those go as early as around 50k.

The intermediate kit is going to be for most customers so they don't have to worry about mechanical adjuster failures and the associated missfires in half the engine and cam codes even after changing the other parts and having to take it apart again.

The full kit will be for HIGH mileage cars in the 100k plus range where their guides look worn. With that being said, most of the cars we see in the 110k to 120k range still look good. So it may be cars in the mid to high 100k cars that it will be required. Also the high mileage kit is for those ONE AND DONE kind of guys.

Once again we recommend replacing EVERYTHING for piece of mind and to avoid taking or paying to take the car apart again and spending more in the long run. We could just only sell a full kit but we know everyone likes honest information from us based on actual experience. Plus this makes your own decision based on the condition of the parts, how it was driven and how long you plan on keeping it easier to pick the right kit for you.

[Lance.Hawk]

I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. First Im not trying to say tons of R&D went into developing this kit or kits. Im saying JHM has dealt with tons of customers who have had their own experiences with Audi/Indy shops as well as numerous other sources which led them to piece together this product. I am not one of those fanbois, I am someone who had my engine fail at 75k. This was an engine with practically no rattle, no consumption oil changed every 4k etc. If i'd reached 100k I may have ignored the warnings but having experienced what Im currently going through I would absolutely reccomend to look at at least the intermediate service at around the same time youre looking at doing your clutch/fly/mounts etc. Again Im referring MAINLY to 04-05 models as I guess the jury is still out on B7s.

I dont feel JHM has tried to be misleading at all as they represent the same stance as anyone who has gone through this before. Bottom line is most Audi Svc Depts may not reccomend this service but some definitely do and ALL of them should at least mention this. Anything after 100k and youre playing with fire imo. Again on 04-05s. Not sure about the later builds.

I gotcha bro, wasn't trying to dig into you at all. After reading your post I see where you are coming from being you have dealt with it. I still don't agree with the initial post from JHM but understand why you do. I'm the same way with oil consumption. I believe it's a huge issue where others don't. That's for another thread though. I spoke up because I didn't want to see Nitro1 get flammed for a JHM comment.

[jaybquick@JHM]

Another interesting note is. For example the 2.7t B5 S4 is recommended by Audi Dealers, most every shop you talk to and everyone online to do the timing belt at 60k miles. However the owners manual says 105k miles (I just walked out to my 01 and checked it to refresh my memory on the exact mileage). This was due to the cheap plastic impeller water pumps that would fail then take out the belt and all the valves in the heads (we sell metal on those kits) on cars not much after 60k miles. It just got adopted and it is now internet fact so to speak. People say all the time "Audi recommends 60k" on those cars and its ok since it is accepted and the car is old enough for everyone to know and agree on the issues. But they just mean their dealer recommends 60k or their local shop. My guys just made that simple mistake. Also we are under scrutiny if we don't clarify properly or thoroughly by being the only company being progressive and investing in the B6-B7 S4 and disagreeing with what Audi owners manuals say. We don't have 50 other shops to back us up so to speak and help clarify or make it "fact". We all know if it gets quoted enough, Googled and copied, etc and gets re-posted enough it can become internet fact. I know we have all seen this. We deal with this daily when I have to assist my sales team with some customers that use the internet searches and threads for their only source of facts without checking the validity. The information available today is wonderful but also at times very wrong or un-useful. I love the internet but I am careful with what I believe based on what i read.


Sorry if anyone got in heated discussion from this. It was really a non issue since the cars are failure prone and we are just the messenger of the facts trying to spread correct first hand knowledge.

Thanks again, hopefully this thread can get back on track and we can discuss only common issues and codes related to this, share pictures ETC. I want this thread to be helpful to new owners, future owners, current owners who need a real education on the chain systems on these cars.

Also thanks again for reading my rambling. It's late so I will work on updating this thread with more tech info soon.

[ilko]

Very informative Jay, thank you so much for your work!

[Nitro1]

Another interesting note is. For example the 2.7t B5 S4 is recommended by Audi Dealers, most every shop you talk to and everyone online to do the timing belt at 60k miles. However the owners manual says 105k miles (I just walked out to my 01 and checked it to refresh my memory on the exact mileage). This was due to the cheap plastic impeller water pumps that would fail then take out the belt and all the valves in the heads (we sell metal on those kits) on cars not much after 60k miles. It just got adopted and it is now internet fact so to speak. People say all the time "Audi recommends 60k" on those cars and its ok since it is accepted and the car is old enough for everyone to know and agree on the issues. But they just mean their dealer recommends 60k or their local shop. My guys just made that simple mistake. Also we are under scrutiny if we don't clarify properly or thoroughly by being the only company being progressive and investing in the B6-B7 S4 and disagreeing with what Audi owners manuals say. We don't have 50 other shops to back us up so to speak and help clarify or make it "fact". We all know if it gets quoted enough, Googled and copied, etc and gets re-posted enough it can become internet fact. I know we have all seen this. We deal with this daily when I have to assist my sales team with some customers that use the internet searches and threads for their only source of facts without checking the validity. The information available today is wonderful but also at times very wrong or un-useful. I love the internet but I am careful with what I believe based on what i read.


Sorry if anyone got in heated discussion from this. It was really a non issue since the cars are failure prone and we are just the messenger of the facts trying to spread correct first hand knowledge.

Thanks again, hopefully this thread can get back on track and we can discuss only common issues and codes related to this, share pictures ETC. I want this thread to be helpful to new owners, future owners, current owners who need a real education on the chain systems on these cars.

Also thanks again for reading my rambling. It's late so I will work on updating this thread with more tech info soon.

Thank you Sir. This is great and well worded. I agree that the "danger zone" for this issue is 65k-100k and after that, if you keep up with the oil changes and let the car warm up, you are in much better shape.

Can I ask a question?

Other than making the repair very time consuming...

Do you think where Audi really screwed up was paying for the oil changes every 10k instead of 5k when the car was new-50k and not telling the customer that the oil still needed changing at the 5k marks?

When those cars came off of leases at 50k or were sold around the 65k mark, they had their oil changed on the 10k mark instead of the 5k mark since day one. I have always heard that regular 5k oil changes and not driving the car hard until temp were key ingredients to the life of the tensioners.

I have had my car since 30k and have changed my oil every 5k since up to 102k. The 3 people I know who have had timing chain issues all stuck with the "Audi" recommended service of 10k oil changes even after the 50k service was up. I'd be curious to know the failure rate of the tensioners on cars if you can prove that they only had their oil changed ever 10k.

Do you have any thoughts on this?

Thanks again for making this kit available.

[B6JoeS4]

Early timing failure is absolutely partly caused by 10k OCI's

[ricardoa1]

Can someone use paint on this picture or maybe JHM can produce a picture of their own. And highlight and point out the components with each kit provided? I am mainly taking a look at the major stuff guides and tensioners. I can make out a few but still having trouble seeing it. I feel like the minimal kit is missing some guides that might be benneficial to change without jumping to the intermediate kit.

Also do the mechanical adjusters fail by their own or is it a function of the hydro tensioner and guides wearing out?

I feel like there needs to be a kit put together between minimal and intermediate. For a DYI like me I just want to replace whats broken and or the high failure parts. I guess I am one of those owners that is driving too much car for his income.

[PitchS4]

Very excited about this incase I ever need it. Now all we need is a good DIY to walk the average wrench turner through it. Maybe a good marketing idea JHM? I know you had done videos in the past for other services.

[Tech/Sales@JHM]

Very excited about this incase I ever need it. Now all we need is a good DIY to walk the average wrench turner through it. Maybe a good marketing idea JHM? I know you had done videos in the past for other services.

PitchS4-

We have started filming for the Timing Chain Service Kit DVD. As you all know we love making our How-To videos! We have just been so swamped we were unable to finish it. As for now, the Bentley Manual has some good information on it to help you get your Timing Chain Service completed.

[SlideWays]

Thank you Sir. This is great and well worded. I agree that the "danger zone" for this issue is 65k-100k and after that, if you keep up with the oil changes and let the car warm up, you are in much better shape.

So, is this right?

If you get to 100k you have a lesser likelihood of seeing failure than you do on the way there? As in, "if you got this far, you're probably in the clear"?

Reason I ask, is I'm afraid I'm developing some slight rattle at higher RPMs, and Im about to turn 98k. 3rd owner, first 70-75k miles were highway, so I'm trying to gauge the likelihood that I'll have a major issue in the next year or 2, which will dictate what I do to/with the car.

[B6JoeS4]

Here you go:

[B6JoeS4]

Can someone use paint on this picture or maybe JHM can produce a picture of their own. And highlight and point out the components with each kit provided? I am mainly taking a look at the major stuff guides and tensioners. I can make out a few but still having trouble seeing it. I feel like the minimal kit is missing some guides that might be benneficial to change without jumping to the intermediate kit.

Also do the mechanical adjusters fail by their own or is it a function of the hydro tensioner and guides wearing out?

I feel like there needs to be a kit put together between minimal and intermediate. For a DYI like me I just want to replace whats broken and or the high failure parts. I guess I am one of those owners that is driving too much car for his income.

The minimal kit includes the tensioners, and the one guide that breaks almost 100% of the time. This kit will fix the rattle, however a good portion(half maybe) of the failures are caused by the mechanical adjuster assemblies failing. The mechanical adjuster assemblies failing is not really related to tensioners and guides wearing. In time, the mechanical adjusters WILL fail. They are a wear item, so you will have to do them eventually

It's pretty simple:

Minimal: tensioners and 1 problematic guide
Intermediate: contents of minimal+mechanical adjusters+all guides
Full: contents of intermediate+electrical adjusters

Add "plus" to any kit and you get all of the associated chains. Bare minimum one should do is the intermediate, IMO

[ricardoa1]

The minimal kit includes the tensioners, and the one guide that breaks almost 100% of the time. This kit will fix the rattle, however a good portion(half maybe) of the failures are caused by the mechanical adjuster assemblies failing. The mechanical adjuster assemblies failing is not really related to tensioners and guides wearing. In time, the mechanical adjusters WILL fail. They are a wear item, so you will have to do them eventually

It's pretty simple:

Minimal: tensioners and 1 problematic guide
Intermediate: contents of minimal+mechanical adjusters+all guides
Full: contents of intermediate+electrical adjusters

Add "plus" to any kit and you get all of the associated chains. Bare minimum one should do is the intermediate, IMO

Thanks for pointing them out, it becomes very clear with the indicators. I will agree on the intermediate kit being a good choice for worry free and peace of mind.
But the minimal $650 vs intermediate $2100 Thats a pretty chunk of change. Thats why I was suggesting a kit Minimal + all the guides and leave the mechanical adjusters out as those seem to rack up the price. Then the question is what is faulty about the mechanical adjusters, Why do they wear at an accelerated rate? Are all cars affected or was it a bad run of them? There are also discussions where some where successful at changing the Mech adjusters with the engine in the car. Maybe address them when they do go, if they do? If you are doing this yourself time is the only thing you are loosing and dropping the mech adjusters from the preventive repair can save you $$.

For those guys paying to get it done, well go for broke and change it all. Assuming your engine has good compression.

[B6JoeS4]

There are holes in the adjuster that pins lock into. Over time the holes round out and cause an 'over advance" code meaning the adjuster can not lock into as retarded of a position as it wants to. Eventually it will completely let go and that $1000 you saved not replacing them just became $3000+ $1000. That's how it usually goes down. sometimes, they let go without a CEL warning and your dead in the water, again out 4k.

I guess the good news is, the mechanical adjusters CAN be replaced with the motor in the car

[mr lee]

pics of the adjusters I replaced during service. The one on the left (driver side) was worn beyond spec, and the right wasn't far behind. Loud knock upon start up and several codes including cam position.

[matt310]

pics of the adjusters I replaced during service. The one on the left (driver side) was worn beyond spec, and the right wasn't far behind. Loud knock upon start up and several codes including cam position.

How many miles on the engine when these were replaced? Were the part numbers/components updated to prevent this from happening again, or since this is a 'wear item', it's bound to occur down the line again?

[mr lee]

How many miles on the engine when these were replaced? Were the part numbers/components updated to prevent this from happening again, or since this is a 'wear item', it's bound to occur down the line again?

They started making noise / throwing codes around 155,XXX and I pulled the engine around 161,XXX. As far as I know, these were OEM replacements from JHM, not an update. I'm assuming that they will wear again in another 150k. However, I am looking into the aux oil sump that will pressurize the system before start. I'm hoping this will help with the wear.

[SlideWays]

There are holes in the adjuster that pins lock into. Over time the holes round out and cause an 'over advance" code meaning the adjuster can not lock into as retarded of a position as it wants to. Eventually it will completely let go and that $1000 you saved not replacing them just became $3000+ $1000. That's how it usually goes down. sometimes, they let go without a CEL warning and your dead in the water, again out 4k.

So you're saying...

[SquiddyB6S4]

Were the part numbers/components updated to prevent this from happening again, or since this is a 'wear item', it's bound to occur down the line again?

In a word, "yes". There have been about a dozen and a half revisions to this part since the first V8 S4 rolled off the line, and the new ones are probably better, but I'd bet money that they will still wear out eventually. Though I have to say, 150k mi isn't bad for a metal on metal wear part.

[jaybquick@JHM]

How many miles on the engine when these were replaced? Were the part numbers/components updated to prevent this from happening again, or since this is a 'wear item', it's bound to occur down the line again?

The mechanical adjusters are in our intermediate kit. This is the most sold and recommended kit. This tends to cause the cam codes, intermittent choppy idle and some cars a full one bank of the motor pretty much dying. Most of the knock is from the tensioners.

[Tech/Sales@JHM]

Thanks for all of the recent Timing Chain Kit orders everyone! We're keeping these on the shelf just for you guys. We also have the tools necessary to perform this job for rent or for sale if you're looking to do the work on your own and save a little money.

[Tech/Sales@JHM]

Hey Guys!

Just wanted to say thanks for all of the orders over the holiday weekend! We have more Timing Chain Kits in stock and ready to ship!

For more information or details, feel free to give us a call.

[Tech/Sales@JHM]

Hey Guys!

Just stopping by to share some pictures of a customers B6-B7 S4 4.2L engine that experienced a timing chain guide failure! If you are experiencing clacking sounds or even an abnormal rattle on warm start-up, it may be time to consider a Timing Chain Job!

*When we took the rear engine case off, this guide was completely destroyed. In every Timing Chain Job we have performed, we have noticed some level of failure from this guide whether it's complete destruction or hairline fractures. The newer, updated guide from Audi is included in every single Timing Chain Kit we offer*



* Because of the guide failure, the timing chain skipped a tooth and caused the center intake valve to hit the almost every piston.*











*You can see from the discoloration of the valve where it was hitting the piston.*




Click HERE! To check out our different levels of Timing Chain kits!

Feel free to give us a call if you have any questions or would like help placing an order.

Jake

[Tech/Sales@JHM]

Hey Everyone!

Just wanted to say thanks for all of the orders so far! We appreciate all the Phone, Email, and PM responses from this thread.

If you have any questions regarding your timing chain or our kits, please don't hesitate to give us a call!

Jake

[Tech/Sales@JHM]

Hey Guys,

Don't forget to use the proper tools while doing your Timing Chain job!



You can rent the tools from us, HERE!

If you have any questions, feel free to give us a call!

Jake

[Tech/Sales@JHM]

CODES WE NORMALLY SEE FOR THE MECHANICAL ADJUSTER FAILURE ON ONE SIDE OF THE MOTOR.
9 Faults Found:

16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 001 - - MIL ON
16690 - Cylinder 6
P0306 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16691 - Cylinder 7
P0307 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16689 - Cylinder 5
P0305 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16686 - Cylinder 2
P0302 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16692 - Cylinder 8
P0308 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
17755 - Camshaft Position Sensor 2 (G163) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P1347 - 002 - Incor. Correl. - MIL ON
16730 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G163)
P0346 - 004 - Implausible Signal - MIL ON
16490 - Manifold / Barometric Pressure Sensor (G71) / (F96)
P0106 - 008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
So what does this indicate? I will explain.
1. The random multiple missfire is just indicating that it saw more than one cylinder missfire at a given time.
2. The missfires for cylinders 5,6,7,8 indicates that BANK 2, the drivers side of the motor is missfiring. This is the first indicator of the infamous mechanical cam adjuster failure in our intermediate kit.
3. You will also notice that in this particular case it missfired on cylinder 2. This is caused by the fact that half the motor is basically dead and it works harder thus making cylinders on the other side harder to fire if everything isn't 100% perfect (compression, spark plug, coil, injector, etc)
4. The Camshaft Position Sensor code for "Incorrect Correlation" is the dead give away. It is telling you that either the cam is out of phase mechanically or someone put the reluctor wheel on wrong on the end of the adjuster that the sensor reads. NOTE: This code usually takes time to occur. Your generally get the next code first that causes people to jump the gun and buy a cam sensor. Unfortunately these RARELY fail.
5. The Camshaft Position Sensor code for "Implausible Signal" makes you think it is a bad sensor and is the first code that occurs in most cases. So don't jump the gun and swap the sensor. Using Ross-Tech log blocks 091, 092 and 093 and email them to us at [email protected] and my guys will make sure that I look at the log to help assist in diagnosis.
6. Is another code that doesn't always occur. Your car does not have a Baro sensor but uses the MAF to calculate it. This code is caused by the excess reversion of air coming back into the intake from the cams being out and throwing it off. Yes you can get this code for a bad MAF but much of the time it is does to a timing chain issue or other major mechanical failure and accompanied by other codes.

So with this car we did a complete chain job because of the bad adjuster and this car also clacked really bad even on a hot restart. After doing the chain job ALL codes did not return. We did inform the customer that if the cylinder 2 missfire or MAF code came back since we can't 100% confirm they are good or bad due to the obvious major mechanical failure we would then need to charge for further diagnosis.

Furthermore we did a compression test on this car and got compression in the 75 to 110 psi range on all 4 cylinders on Bank 2 which is low, also a dead give away of a mechanical failure.

Bottom line if you have cam sensor codes, check compression and get us those logs. If your compression is fine and you don't have a Correlation code then most likely it is only a sensor or wiring to it. WOOHOO, that would be nice huh?

Also if you had this issue on Bank 1 the codes would have the same description for the cam but be a different number for the other bank. Also your missfires would be on cylinder 1,2,3,4 and those codes would be different.

For those of you who are curious, here is a picture of two mechanical adjusters from the same engine. As you can see, the passenger side has been oblonged causing the codes quoted above:





If you have any questions, feel free to give us a call!

Jake

[jaybquick@JHM]

I don't have any issue with Nitro1's beef with the post. I don't find it ridiculous at all. I'm sure the kit is great. I think he is pointing out that JHM is being a little loose with the "recommends" part of the advert. I feel your being a little generous and defensive with the "numerous sources to develop this kit...", c'mon they put together upgraded replacement parts in a package. I doubt a lot of R&D went into this. All that being said I think it's great they have made it easy for those who need it. Through some creative advertising they will probably sell a few kits to those who don't as well. I tend to lean on the side of the skeptic with this particular kit as a preventative service but I don't fault anyone for buying it. People get so touchy with JHM. We all know they are a good company but people get slammed on this board anytime they don't drink the kool aid.

It is tough, all the wrecked cars we buy to part out, used motors that are damage we buy etc we see with over 80k we buy have bad chain tensioners, mildly split guides, missing guides, etc. Unfortunately some have bent valves from this. Most of the really bad ones are in the 100k plus club, but pretty much anything we have seen over 80k in a wrecked car has at least the 1 split guide (sold in our minimal kit). We have seen this on motors at as low as 40k. Obviously this was an issue that wasn't apparent to the owner of the car at that point.

More and more regularly we are seeing more cars over 100k with neglected chains that are requiring new heads due to busted guides, destroyed mechanical adjusters, etc. So add up our rebuilt HD heads, a full chain kit needed with that mileage, labor and you are at the value of the car unfortunately.

We do about 2 to 3 chain jobs a month on the B6-B7 S4 on average on cars local to us and shipped from out of state.

We are just here to share information and help based on our years of exclusivity to this car and motor. I apologize if we came off as trying to push product, we sponsor this section for a reason. With that being said, we do appreciate all of those who buy anything from us even and oil change kit. We use a portion of all products sold (JHM, replacement, OEM, etc) still to this day to improve this platform and make new offerings not offered by any other company. Trust me, we still have more products in the works for this car soon to be released.

If you disagree that is fine, you are welcome to your opinion. We honestly make more from those who wait, we get to sell them heads too once their valves get bent. If you want to be up front and honest. So I don't understand why we would be bashed for being upfront and honest due to Audi's design flaw with the chains on this motor and trying to save customers in the long run and NOT sell them JHM HD heads that are much cheaper and heavier duty than OEM. (Road racers tend to break intake valve springs as well on top of the chain issues which our heads address)

I still personally own and love my 2005 S4 and hopefully our willingness to share helps all of the B6-B7 S4 owners out there.

We are here to help if you have questions, concerns, codes, etc. We are available at 209-968-0077 or via email at [email protected]

Rest assured that 95% of the timing chain related codes get sent to me internally and I review them and use my 20 plus years or automotive experience to benefit and educate our customers.

Thanks again everyone for your feedback and concerns. Have a great weekend.