The solution to chain rattle

[speedshopmike]

[QUOTE=Omerta;9014076]Depends on the method that its installed.

Option A:
Valve set to open when ignition is energized (As a racing sump would be) I would not add another quart as the entire purpose of the sump is to give a 1qt buffer to maintain constant pressure regardless of and reductions in pressure from the pump (high and sustained g-force turns).


no, no, no, no.
unless you happen to starve for oil at the pickup for an extended time and the accusump dumps it's full load, your motor will always be a quart down.
that is bad.
even when the a'sump discharges, soon as oil psi returns it rapidly refills.
i don't see our undertired porksters being able to pull enough G load to ever uncover the oil pump pickup except maybe, perhaps, a fully suspension done car w/ R compounds.
anyway, fill your engine with the proper 9.5 qts plus one (or w/e your A'sump holds) for the A'sump.
as always, it's both better not to wild guess on tech issues or trust strangers on the interwebs, so if you're troubled or doubtful, contact Canton.
their customer service is excellent.

[Omerta]

no, no, no, no.
unless you happen to starve for oil at the pickup for an extended time and the accusump dumps it's full load, your motor will always be a quart down.
that is bad.
even when the a'sump discharges, soon as oil psi returns it rapidly refills.
i don't see our undertired porksters being able to pull enough G load to ever uncover the oil pump pickup except maybe, perhaps, a fully suspension done car w/ R compounds.
anyway, fill your engine with the proper 9.5 qts plus one (or w/e your A'sump holds) for the A'sump.
as always, it's both better not to wild guess on tech issues or trust strangers on the interwebs, so if you're troubled or doubtful, contact Canton.
their customer service is excellent.

This is hard to read.

But no, you will not be a quart down in the big picture. Yes, you will measure a quart down on the dipstick and overfill the sump on startup until operating pressure is reached. This is not a wild guess I work with mechanical equipment for a living.

Adverse effects of having 1 qt less in the wet sump would be possibly lower heat absorption since it is not circulating through the accusump under normal operating conditions.

[speedshopmike]

This is hard to read.

But no, you will not be a quart down in the big picture. Yes, you will measure a quart down on the dipstick and overfill the sump on startup until operating pressure is reached. This is not a wild guess I work with mechanical equipment for a living.

Adverse effects of having 1 qt less in the wet sump would be possibly lower heat absorption since it is not circulating through the accusump under normal operating conditions.

working with mechanical equipment for a living hasn't provided you with knowledge of how to correctly incorporate an A'sump, apparently.....my career building race cars may have helped me with this.
do what you like, but the motor WILL be, effectively one quart down your way.
if audi wanted 8.5 quarts in the system, they'd have engineered it as such.
i recommend you, in particular, call Canton.

[dparm]

working with mechanical equipment for a living hasn't provided you with knowledge of how to correctly incorporate an A'sump, apparently.....my career building race cars may have helped me with this.
do what you like, but the motor WILL be, effectively one quart down your way.
if audi wanted 8.5 quarts in the system, they'd have engineered it as such.
i recommend you, in particular, call Canton.

It is true that a larger sump helps with heat dissipation, but a larger sump also lets them extend the oil change interval to 10k since there is more oil to dirty.

Try running the car down by 1qt and check oil temps. I suspect there will be very little difference. My only concern would be that perhaps under extreme cornering (track day or whatever) you have a bigger risk of starving the pickup. I don't know what the trays in the pan look like though.

[IslandHydro]

This is hard to read.

But no, you will not be a quart down in the big picture. Yes, you will measure a quart down on the dipstick and overfill the sump on startup until operating pressure is reached. This is not a wild guess I work with mechanical equipment for a living.

Adverse effects of having 1 qt less in the wet sump would be possibly lower heat absorption since it is not circulating through the accusump under normal operating conditions.

You are just flat wrong. You do need to add the volume of the AS beyond your oil capacity or you will be down by the volume of the AS when the engine is running and the AS is full.

[Latosa]

my god I guess this is getting out of right direction people if you add a 1 quart sump and your running you valve OPEN ALL THE TIME LIKE I'M DOING A YEAR NOW WITH OUT PROBLEMS , YOUR WILL NEED A QUART EXTRA since the sump will BE acting as a DAMPER in ENGINE operating mode.iF YOU GO BACK TO MY INSTALLATIONS PICTURES i went thru oil pressure switch fabricating a custom fitting that's IT.If you want to go with the cap thas another option if you dont have access to a welder or fabricating skills ,either way will work also remember if your running your sump in the trunk like someone did ,you will need more oil fill the lines.I come back every four or five days
and read all the confusion on this !!!!! IS SIMPLE

STEP 1 BUY A SUMP!!1 QUART IS ENOUGH

STEP2 FIND A WAY TO PUT ON THE CAR. I did some fab and fitted in the front bumper.

STEP 3 RUN SOME WIRING TO YOUR SWITCH .could be right off ignition or toggle .ran mine from ignition VALVE OPEN ALL THE TIME. 1 YEAR1/2 TROUBLE FREE

STEP 4 FEED THE ENGINE FROM THE SUMP THRU OIL PRESS SWITCH OR OIL CAP (BILLET)
PLEASE USE HIGH GRADE LINES( AN )FITTINGS THAT MEETS RACING OR AVIATION STANDARDS .

STEP 5 TEST ,SERVICE ,CHARGE AIR SIDE FROM SUMP AND LEAK CHECK MORE THAN TWICE !

STEP 6 ADD OIL 1 QUART EXTRA !

STEP 7 IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS I WILL BE AVAILABLE TRU HERE PM!!!

STEP 8 ONE AND MOST IMPORTANT IF YOU ARE NOT ELECTRICALLY OR MECHANICALLY ORIENTED PLS TAKE IT TO A PROF. SHOP.

[Omerta]

You are just flat wrong. You do need to add the volume of the AS beyond your oil capacity or you will be down by the volume of the AS when the engine is running and the AS is full.

If you read my post I covered that.

[Omerta]

working with mechanical equipment for a living hasn't provided you with knowledge of how to correctly incorporate an A'sump, apparently.....my career building race cars may have helped me with this.
do what you like, but the motor WILL be, effectively one quart down your way.
if audi wanted 8.5 quarts in the system, they'd have engineered it as such.
i recommend you, in particular, call Canton.

Thank you for the concern, but my knowledge is just fine.

In the rare case that having 8.5 qt under track-day cornering the pickup might become exposed. If this is the case, then the accusump will do its job and keep the oil pressure constant until the corner is apex'd. The entire purpose of the accusump is to maintain constant pressure in the system -- the startup protection is a bonus. To cover lube oil condition -- as the oil is discharged during startup it will mix with the rest in the sump, so its not going to have a isolated clean pocket.

Putting in the extra qt is a waste of money. But, I can see how it would be peace of mind as the dipstick reads normal.

[speedshopmike]

Thank you for the concern, but my knowledge is just fine.

In the rare case that having 8.5 qt under track-day cornering the pickup might become exposed. If this is the case, then the accusump will do its job and keep the oil pressure constant until the corner is apex'd. The entire purpose of the accusump is to maintain constant pressure in the system -- the startup protection is a bonus. To cover lube oil condition -- as the oil is discharged during startup it will mix with the rest in the sump, so its not going to have a isolated clean pocket.

Putting in the extra qt is a waste of money. But, I can see how it would be peace of mind as the dipstick reads normal.

here's another typical euro guy example of "i know everything despite what those who actually do know and the manufacturer says", but it's your car and your money; if you're so cheap you wanna save a quart of oil, go for it.
others reading this thread should be aware of the correct way to use an A'sump, and how it works.
i'm outta here, you guys enjoy playing sword fight w/ your peckers.
cheers, good luck.

[Omerta]

here's another typical euro guy example of "i know everything despite what those who actually do know and the manufacturer says", but it's your car and your money; if you're so cheap you wanna save a quart of oil, go for it.
others reading this thread should be aware of the correct way to use an A'sump, and how it works.
i'm outta here, you guys enjoy playing sword fight w/ your peckers.
cheers, good luck.

Thanks for the critical thought and insight.

I'm interested in having an educated discussion on the topic... I won't fight my opinion to grave just to be 'right' -- but you haven't added any supported counter arguments other than shouting aftermarket OEM and denouncing me because you build racecar.

[KAL]

Latosa: I loled at your frustration by all this!

[speedshopmike]

Thanks for the critical thought and insight.

I'm interested in having an educated discussion on the topic... I won't fight my opinion to grave just to be 'right' -- but you haven't added any supported counter arguments other than shouting aftermarket OEM and denouncing me because you build racecar.

if you actually want to get educated, simply pick up the telephone, call Canton, ask your question, and learn why what you're doing is poor operational practice.
it doesn't require a discussion, just 5 minutes on the phone.
for readers who can think on their own, consider this:
scale this fella's advice to a three quart A'sump.
would you run around happily with only 6.5 quarts in the engine?
` last, in the case of our S4 motors, the primary purpose of the A'sump is not to maintain constant pressure, but to build pre-start pressure to charge the chain tensioners (and prevent dry start wear).

[Omerta]

if you actually want to get educated, simply pick up the telephone, call Canton, ask your question, and learn why what you're doing is poor operational practice.
it doesn't require a discussion, just 5 minutes on the phone.
for readers who can think on their own, consider this:
scale this fella's advice to a three quart A'sump.
would you run around happily with only 6.5 quarts in the engine?
` last, in the case of our S4 motors, the primary purpose of the A'sump is not to maintain constant pressure, but to build pre-start pressure to charge the chain tensioners (and prevent dry start wear).

A) Why would I call Canton to defend your position? You have a brain and are fully capable of explaining the disadvantages yourself.
B) I never said it was scalable;
C) The pre-oiling characteristics is obviously why this thread exists.

I suspect if someone was to call they would give generic answers to refill it to normal operating level, since suggesting otherwise to engines with smaller sumps or larger accumulators would increase risk and require more tailored thought. Just like any other OEM... generic is the way to go.

Our sump is fairly wide, a 10% reduction in volume will likely not translate into much loss in height 1/4" if that?

[speedshopmike]

A) Why would I call Canton to defend your position? You have a brain and are fully capable of explaining the disadvantages yourself.
B) I never said it was scalable;
C) The pre-oiling characteristics is obviously why this thread exists.

I suspect if someone was to call they would give generic answers to refill it to normal operating level, since suggesting otherwise to engines with smaller sumps or larger accumulators would increase risk and require more tailored thought. Just like any other OEM... generic is the way to go.

Our sump is fairly wide, a 10% reduction in volume will likely not translate into much loss in height 1/4" if that?

"suspect"..."likely"...
those words provide much confidence.
the performance aftermarket manufacturers, who you've clearly never dealt with, are not the same as an oem in any fashion, and those manufacturers will happily provide specific, tailored, non ass-covering information to anyone WHO TAKES THE TIME TO ASK and has their head far enough out of ass to listen because they are competitors building product for racers who don't fuck around because their lives depend on this stuff.
i don't care what you do to your own car.
the proper info is posted so others don't make the same mistake you are.
if you wanna learn the reasons why, do some easy research; the SAE publishes all their data, and there about a million worthwhile engine building books available, etc.
learn about things like aeration, windage, splash vs pressurized lubing, long chain polymer breakdown, chemical breakdown, molecular shearing forces, the various things oil actually does for an engine, how it behaves hydrodynamically, and a few score other things before you dig yourself a deeper hole.
i have no need to defend my position as i know for documented fact what i said is correct (also i have a real life) but mostly because you won't listen anyway, and am unsubscribing so you can find someone else to annoy.

[Omerta]

"suspect"..."likely"...
those words provide much confidence.
the performance aftermarket manufacturers, who you've clearly never dealt with, are not the same as an oem in any fashion, and those manufacturers will happily provide specific, tailored, non ass-covering information to anyone WHO TAKES THE TIME TO ASK and has their head far enough out of ass to listen because they are competitors building product for racers who don't fuck around because their lives depend on this stuff.
i don't care what you do to your own car.
the proper info is posted so others don't make the same mistake you are.
if you wanna learn the reasons why, do some easy research; the SAE publishes all their data, and there about a million worthwhile engine building books available, etc.
learn about things like aeration, windage, splash vs pressurized lubing, long chain polymer breakdown, chemical breakdown, molecular shearing forces, the various things oil actually does for an engine, how it behaves hydrodynamically, and a few score other things before you dig yourself a deeper hole.
i have no need to defend my position as i know for documented fact what i said is correct (also i have a real life) but mostly because you won't listen anyway, and am unsubscribing so you can find someone else to annoy.

Unlike you I don't speak on 100% certain terms when I don't have evidence to back it up. I've also been an SAE International member for 3 years - but thanks for the deep insight of spouting random lube oil topics.

How are you impervious to defending your position? All you have done is claimed that you 'know' for a 'documented fact' without any proof other than your user name being 'speedshopmike' and claiming to be a racecar assembler. You have no proof or specific explanation about WHY your statement is correct and probably never will. Why should anyone listen to you in blind faith? If you're to ignorant to discuss and qualify your claim then take your ball and go home.

[IslandHydro]

Our sump is fairly wide, a 10% reduction in volume will likely not translate into much loss in height 1/4" if that?

And therein lies the rub: you're admitting (above) that your method will result in a 10% reduction in oil volume in the engine. Why in the heck would any rational person want to do that to their car? Why would you suggest its a good thing to do?? The only reason I can find is that you screwed up in your initial post, and are now defending it to the end regardless of the truth (or lack thereof) behind what your saying. I think it's time for a moderator to step into this discussion... lest you miss-inform more people than necessary.

[Omerta]

And therein lies the rub: you're admitting (above) that your method will result in a 10% reduction in oil volume in the engine. Why in the heck would any rational person want to do that to their car? The only reason I can find is that you screwed up in your initial post, and are now defending it to the end regardless of the truth behind what your saying. I think it's time for a moderator to step into this discussion... lest you miss-inform more people than necessary.

Dude, I already covered that in the post you first quoted me on. There is nothing new here.

To reiterate: Oil volume in the SUMP - not the engine.

What is the purpose of the sump again?

- Store the bulk oil for the engine
- Heat sink
- Oil quality
- Readily provide the required amount of oil for suction at the pump's pickup during all operating conditions
- Catch oil as it is discharged from various components

If I'm so obviously wrong what are the adverse effects?

[Omerta]

When I do my chains this winter I will be installing an accumulator.

[IslandHydro]

A) Why would I call Canton to defend your position? You have a brain and are fully capable of explaining the disadvantages yourself.

This is why:

From: Summit Racing [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 2:00 PM
To: IslandHydro
Subject: Oiling System Question [Incident: 130828-001202]
Recently you requested personal assistance from our on-line support center. Below is a summary of your request and our response.
Please reply to this message with any updates or if you require further assistance.
Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.

Customer By Email 08/28/2013 03:42 PM
Tech Question: Oiling System
Question: I am considering adding an Accusump as a pre-oiler to help with startup timing chain rattle. If I use a 1 quart Accusump, should I add an additional quart of oil to the engine?
Response Via Email (Brad) 08/29/2013 05:00 PM
Thank you for your email.

Yes, you would need to add the additional oil.

We appreciate your business,

Brad
Summit Racing Equipment

NUFF SAID.

[Omerta]

Yes, you would need to add the additional oil.

We appreciate your business,

Brad
Summit Racing Equipment[/I]

NUFF SAID.

I suspect if someone was to call they would give generic answers to refill it to normal operating level, since suggesting otherwise to engines with smaller sumps or larger accumulators would increase risk and require more tailored thought. Just like any other OEM... generic is the way to go.

Like I said before, you can add an extra quart if you want its obviously not going to increase the risk of failure to your engine. My argument is that if you maintained the engine with 9.5 quarts instead of 10.5 the difference would be null.

[IslandHydro]

Like I said before, you can add an extra quart if you want its obviously not going to increase the risk of failure to your engine. My argument is that if you maintained the engine with 9.5 quarts instead of 10.5 the difference would be null.

LOL it's not an EXTRA QUART - it's NOT RUNNING A QUART SHORT. I'm so very done with you and your clown talk. Please feel free to run YOUR CAR a quart short, the rest of us will likely run ours full.

[Omerta]

LOL it's not an EXTRA QUART - it's NOT RUNNING A QUART SHORT. I'm so very done with you and your clown talk. Please feel free to run YOUR CAR a quart short, the rest of us will likely run ours full.

Wow this forum gets so emotional. I only operate my car and I will use that method. kthxbye

[tboo72]

Sorry to get off topic from the current ongoing argument but does anybody worry about heat issues when you have the Accusump mounted on top the engine?

[jjrichar]

Have a look at the link for my Accusump installation. The heat issue, amongst other considerations, is discussed.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...t-impressions?

[tboo72]

Have a look at the link for my Accusump installation. The heat issue, amongst other considerations, is discussed.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...t-impressions?

Ah, thanks. Looks like Canton says not to worry about it. Good.

[tboo72]

NM

[tboo72]

NM

[Latosa]

hi guys been a while just checking in on this and is been a more than a year since my install no problems ,no leaks ,no rattle,no issues on my S4 daily driver only thing I notice the oil pressure gauge lens faded a little bit going to replace that one on my next oil change ,all I can say great product.happy accusumping!!!!!!!!

[zookie]

Great to hear Latosa. Curiously how many miles do you have on the car these days?

[Latosa]

65k on my car right now.

[Canton Racing]

Haven't checked this thread in a long time but I see a lot has transpired. First off for anyone interested, we did end up creating a replacement cap with a fitting in the top to install an Accusump easier. We made 12 of them and have only sold 3 so we most likely won't be making another run after we sell this one.

Secondly, as far as the recent argument goes we do recommend adding extra oil in the amount of the Accusump unit. The Accusump acts as a separate reserve of oil in your system. By not adding the extra oil to fill the Accusump you are essentially running the motor down a quart of oil. You need to look at the Accusump as an additional piece to your oiling system. While this is our recommended procedure and we would not suggest running the motor a quart low, you most likely won't see any issues doing this under normal driving conditions as the Accusump will have a quart of oil to discharge if you lose oil pressure. You are however increasing the chances of losing oil pressure by running the motor a quart low.

Hope this explanation helps.

[pjberr]

Thanks for clarifying that point, it seemed obvious that the extra reservoir requires extra oil. But... Audi being the way they are, clearly states "Do not overfill" on the oil cap. When running, the engine certainly drops the oil level in the pan to below the dipstick measure but if we add an extra quart on startup, we are way over the full mark. Is the extra oil (do not overfill) an issue at startup or while running? If while running, the accusump takes the overage so no issue, but if on startup, then we have way too much oil. Just pondering the two sides of a seemingly emotional argument.

What is the difference in volume within the one quart reservoir when filled at 30psi (idle) or 70psi (revving)? An ounce, or half a quart? I was thinking and perhaps over-thinking, of running the accumsump solenoid off a relay triggered by the light system that turns on when the remote unlocks the car. This would charge the system and tighten the tensioners on the chain which is my primary goal in this system.

Would use a return line around the solenoid valve with a check valve to refill the accusump to max operating pressure for the next startup.

Have 255,000 km (~160,000 miles) on my 06 B7 S4 with the timing chain service done at 200,000km and am now, 50,000km later, getting the occasional short rattle on startup. Prior to the service, this was long and pronounced, now it is only short and less pronounced. From the engine oiling diagram on this thread ( http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...t-impressions? ) it would seem that the tensioner is early in the system and pressure is maintained by check valves so a very small amount of oil should be enough to tighten up any slack.

Was looking at the passenger foot well up and against the firewall as a good spot to put the accusump. Any reason not to put it in the passenger compartment and route the oil line through the firewall? Trunk mounting is still in the passenger compartment imo. Count me in for one of those OFH caps, have already spoken to one of your Canadian dealers here. Great job on stepping in to fill a niche need.

[Newbie6]

So how much does everything cost to get a kit for my car? I'm just curious to know how much these kits are for everything you need?

[Tropicgreena4]

Like I said before, you can add an extra quart if you want its obviously not going to increase the risk of failure to your engine. My argument is that if you maintained the engine with 9.5 quarts instead of 10.5 the difference would be null.

so, using your logic, maintaining a stock engine at 8.5 qts is no different than maintaining it at 9.5 qts?

[Omerta]

so, using your logic, maintaining a stock engine at 8.5 qts is no different than maintaining it at 9.5 qts?

No. A stock engine does not have the oil pressure protection of an accumulator. It would also have less oil to dirty which would affect the oil change interval and thus is obviously not the same.

[Tropicgreena4]

No. A stock engine does not have the oil pressure protection of an accumulator. It would also have less oil to dirty which would affect the oil change interval and thus is obviously not the same.

you're totally missing the point here... the stock system has a capacity of 9.5 qts. you add a 1 qt accumulator that constantly has 1 qt in it. if you don't add an additional quart, you are essentially running your engine with 8.5 qts in it.

[Omerta]

you're totally missing the point here... the stock system has a capacity of 9.5 qts. you add a 1 qt accumulator that constantly has 1 qt in it. if you don't add an additional quart, you are essentially running your engine with 8.5 qts in it.

Please apply some critical thinking here. Think about what lube oil is used for... what degrades it over time... how it circulates... how it maintains pressure... the flow path... the design criteria to hit all of these key components in making the system work.. then how different variables can be changed and how it would affect the overall operation.

[infieldg]

Hi guys, there seems to be differing opinions on the cause of the rattle so I'll share what I've learnt - I currently have a naked allroad BAS on a chain in my brother's driveway (I strung it up, it had it coming).

Firstly and most crucially, at 167,000kms (I'm in New Zealand but the car is a Jap import) my timing chain guides/slippers etc SHATTER when dropped a foot onto concrete, I couldn't believe it. These things are now so brittle that I'd urge everyone to replace them ALL. For some reason cars imported from Japan suffer greatly from heat damage so I guess for lots of you guys this may not be the case. I had one broken and one lifting off the guide. Note that the early engines have an oil boss with o-ring on the top middle guide (079 109 469AC) so don't buy 079 109 469AD like I did lol).

Secondly, the cam adjusters (with sprocket attached) require oil pressure to maintain a given cam position. To avoid the cam being thrown forwards and backwards by the valves as they pass over the nose, there is a spring-loaded sliding pin inside them that engages in a hole locking the cam at the full advance (idle) position.

Two things happen with this pin.

(1) It elongates its hole allowing for a slight rocking of the cam as it operates before oil pressure takes charge. This is the noise which Audi say is "normal". As the hole elongates over time this will get worse and may stress your fragile guides.

(2) It fails to engage completely leading to the situation I've shown in a video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBZxFCqzrl8.

The noise from (1) is annoying, the noise from (2) sounds like a washing machine full of steel plates. See http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3434/0nhn.jpg for the inside, showing both an elongated hole (which on my other bank gives just a tiny amount of cam rock without oil pressure) and the offending pin.

Regarding (2), I just pulled my adjuster apart and the pin DOES engage into the hole but the wear in the elongated section has formed a little ramp for the pin to walk up! If the elgongation was full depth, no problem it'd lock but rattle as in (1) above. But the damned thing gets shallower the further from the orginal hole it gets :(

So having just ordered a pair of these http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-All_Ro...ster/ES284546/ for US$536 EACH (best price I can find) I think an accumulator is ESSENTIAL if you don't currently have any noise. It should completely eliminate further wear because with oil pressure this pin is withdrawn and does not wear the hole.

But as painful as it is if I own another high mileage 4.2 I'll bite the bullet and do the guides and tensioners definitely - not sure if the tensioners needed replacing but they were cheap so silly not to :)

Cheers!!
Geoff
Wellington, New Zealand
2004 allroad 4.2 V8
2000 BMW 540 Motorsport

[jmcS4]

Wow this forum gets so emotional. I only operate my car and I will use that method. kthxbye

Omerta you're wrong plain and simple. If you add the accusump you will need to add an extra because the pump will refill itself. Hence needing the extra Quart increasing the grand friggin total to 10.5q.

[jmcS4]

Does anyone here cycle the starter motor before actually starting the engine?? I got this tip from another member and it actually works for me. I only stale the starter once or twice to pressurize the system. Simple fix but idk if I'm jeopardizing my starters life span