Clutch conundrum

[Tylerm99]

After much searching here (and on the rest of the net) I am still in need of clutch and flywheel advice.

I need to change the clutch on my 04 B6 1.8t Quattro. The only performance mods are an APR 1+ tune and larger wheels and tires. The car is my daily driver.

That being said I do have plans to upgrade the car further with a FMIC, lowering springs\shocks, exhaust, larger brakes, and some other cosmetic stuff. I most likely will not go extreme with the power adders.

I'd like a clutch\flywheel setup that will provide a good balance between performance and drive-ability. I don't want chattering and on\off switch type engagement.

After reading up I don't think I want a SouthBend setup due to apparent reliability issues.

This setup from ECS seems decent... http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B6_A4-...Clutch/ES5489/

I am open to any suggestions for specific package?

Is Clutchmasters still a good way to go?

Single mass? Dual mass? What is the difference?

Man I am confused.

Thanks in advance for your input!

[JoshDub]

I was 1+ as well and went with OEM. I never had a problem with slipping.

[Tylerm99]

I was 1+ as well and went with OEM. I never had a problem with slipping.

Alright. Fair enough, but OEM costs as much or more than a performance clutch. If I'm going to replace both clutch and flywheel I may as well replace them with a higher performance option right?

I also thought the OEM was just barely rated to handle the 1+ tune with supporting mods?

Is it a bad idea to go with a performance clutch for some reason I'm not aware of?

[igo4uga0586]

use the valeo single kit

[Tylerm99]

use the valeo single kit

Why?

Not to be a smart ass, I really want to know why you would recommend the Valeo?

[t28sentra]

Get the ECS RA4 flywheel for a B5 (ECS# 12084 - $349.00) and order just the slave cylinder push rod from them for the B6 (ECS#8745 - $19.95) and order a B5 S4 clutch kit from Vast Performance (Stage 1 - $399.95). The flywheels are the same on B5 and B6. ECS basically chargers $100 for that slave cylinder push rod they make when you buy it in the kit. I bought just the push rod for $20. This would get you a setup that will hold pretty much anything your A4 will make and have the stock-like drive-ability (>$800).

[Tylerm99]

Get the ECS RA4 flywheel for a B5 (ECS# 12084 - $349.00) and order just the slave cylinder push rod from them for the B6 (ECS#8745 - $19.95) and order a B5 S4 clutch kit from Vast Performance (Stage 1 - $399.95). The flywheels are the same on B5 and B6. ECS basically chargers $100 for that slave cylinder push rod they make when you buy it in the kit. I bought just the push rod for $20. This would get you a setup that will hold pretty much anything your A4 will make and have the stock-like drive-ability (>$800).

Now that is the kind of advice I'm looking for! Thank you. I'm liking the cost on that combo, I'll go check out the parts online in a second.

It sounds like you run this setup yourself, you must be happy with it? I'm having a shop do the install for me, did you do yours yourself or have a shop install it?

*Edit:

I looked at the ECS site and it appears you can't order the slave cylinder push rod separately? At least it doesn't show up on their website as a separate order item. I will have to call and find out.

The Vast clutch looks pretty damn nice. This might be the way to go. Thanks!

[igo4uga0586]

I recommend the valeo because

1. its only 500 bucks,
2.is a great OEM replacement,
3.is much more lightweight than the OEM clutch,
4.and is very dependable

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...3@Clutch%20Kit

[Tylerm99]

I recommend the valeo because

1. its only 500 bucks,
2.is a great OEM replacement,
3.is much more lightweight than the OEM clutch,
4.and is very dependable

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...3@Clutch%20Kit

OK, fair enough. I'll take a look and see if it is a good option for me. The price is certainly good.

Do you run this clutch yourself?

[igo4uga0586]

Sure do.

I got it put in at 74k miles, currently I have 110k and no problems at all. There are a few others on here running it on here as well.

[a4darkness]

I do and it's been really spectacular. Same reasons as well, been over a year now with zero complaints or issues. And yes, it'll hold for the power you're making just fine while being a completely compliant DD. I'd describe it as light and spry which reflects accordingly in the driving characteristics. The weight shed vs the heavy OEM DMFW setup + the SMFW design obviously attributes to this. It's a very fun addition to the car... peppy if you will.

If you're gonna spend that kind of coin on a clutch, something a bit more robust like Clutchmasters is a better solution. However, there are tradeoffs with driveability which some consider minor or insignificant while others can't tolerate. Never bothered me and the torque it put down was great. I had a stellar 8mo out of mine until it failed (likely due to a number of bad circumstance reasons - none of which included abuse/launching/improper break-in etc). Short but sweet.

Related, many have run SB sans issue while others have experienced just the opposite. Same with Spec. Right now, the CM trend seems to be fading a bit while SB has certainly fallen out of favor. A small few are running Spec and it seems to be very hit or very miss. I loved the Spec in my B5 but it seems that Spec really effed up their product line a few years ago and is still struggling to recover here in B6 A4 land. Frankly, I'd be willing to give em another shot if my Valeo goes south but would rather source a more robust Valeo than anything else.

However, as it turns out the Valeo is a much better solution for me as I spend a decent amount of time on aggressively sloped hills in SF which the CM wasn't really suited for. The Valeo is just fine in these situations.

As for the ancillary items, slave + master cyl. and rear main seal. Note, the rear main isn't a requirement but since it's right there should be addressed. Just be sure that whomever is doing the work knows what they're doing otherwise it'll leak and mess up your world. Also keep in mind that since your trans will be out it's a great time to check/replace anything behind the engine / hard to reach including the rear coolant flange and of course the trans mount.

Considering your wants and needs, I would reco the Valeo or a CM FX100/200 (but in the 228mm variety).

[t28sentra]

You can call and order the push rod from ECS. They don't have the item listed on the website. Just give them the ECS# over the phone and it'll cost $20.00 and order the B5 RA4 flywheel. I was considering the Valeo as well, but if you ever need to replace the pressure plate/ disc you have to use their replacement (no upgrade option). If you plan on staying around your current HP/TQ rating, I would prob go with the Valeo. The way I bought everything, I figured for $300 dollars more (than the Valeo) I will have a solid setup that'll hold any HP/TQ I plan on making. The plus side to having the ECS flywheel is you can run pretty much any B5 S4 clutch setup you want. Purchasing everything this way save a lot of money Vs. buying a packaged Spec/ CM 240mm setup.

[M-Hood]

The plus side to having the ECS flywheel is you can run pretty much any B5 S4 clutch setup you want. Purchasing everything this way save a lot of money Vs. buying a packaged Spec/ CM 240mm setup.

Well not 100% true, the ECS flywheel will only work with a full face disk. To use a 6 puck the flywheel has to be be modified so that the springs on the puck disk doesn't hit the bolts. 1 down side to the flywheel is it is really light which means there will be a good amount of gear rattle. This is why most companies make heavier steel flywheels which is better for daily driven AWD cars, the heavier flywheels really help the heavier the car is. Really light flywheels are better suited for FWD cars which have way less drive line resistance.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

The B6 light weight flywheel already comes with the push rod. No need to order it separately. Not sure why there was such a big difference between the B5/B6 flywheel prices. It has been adjusted.

Click HERE to order or for more information.



Jason

[t28sentra]

That's good you guys adjusted the pricing for the B6. Back when I ordered mine, the phone operator couldn't tell me why there was a $100 price difference between the B5 and B6 versions. I just figured ECS was charging $100 for the pushrod, so I ordered the B5 version and then order the pushrod separately. Saved $80 going that route. I also see you lowered the price on the RA4 kit. Back when I ordered mine, it was more cost effective to order the flywheel and S4 clutch kit separate than the kit. Didn't make much sense to me.....

M-Hood - You are right about the modifications needed to fit a puck style disc, but the OP has an APR 1+. Needless to say, a stock S4 type setup would be more than sufficient. Just giving some cost effective options besides $1,000+ prepackaged 240mm setups offered by most companies.

Pairing this flywheel with an aftermarket option (Vast) will save some money and hold as much HP/TQ as some $1,000+ kits out there. In any event, going with the ECS flywheel and Vast stage 1 will cost you around $800 after shipping. Compare to $900 before shipping for the ECS stage II setup.

[M-Hood]

That's good you guys adjusted the pricing for the B6. Back when I ordered mine, the phone operator couldn't tell me why there was a $100 price difference between the B5 and B6 versions. I just figured ECS was charging $100 for the pushrod, so I ordered the B5 version and then order the pushrod separately. Saved $80 going that route. I also see you lowered the price on the RA4 kit. Back when I ordered mine, it was more cost effective to order the flywheel and S4 clutch kit separate than the kit. Didn't make much sense to me.....

M-Hood - You are right about the modifications needed to fit a puck style disc, but the OP has an APR 1+. Needless to say, a stock S4 type setup would be more than sufficient. Just giving some cost effective options besides $1,000+ prepackaged 240mm setups offered by most companies.

Pairing this flywheel with an aftermarket option (Vast) will save some money and hold as much HP/TQ as some $1,000+ kits out there. In any event, going with the ECS flywheel and Vast stage 1 will cost you around $800 after shipping. Compare to $900 before shipping for the ECS stage II setup.

Yes it is more cost effective, mainly because it uses a machined cast flywheel while the other 240mm kits on the market use a machined billet flywheel. Billet is always going to cost more then Cast, Billet will always be stronger and have less flaws.

[Tylerm99]

1 down side to the flywheel is it is really light which means there will be a good amount of gear rattle. This is why most companies make heavier steel flywheels which is better for daily driven AWD cars, the heavier flywheels really help the heavier the car is.

Is the rattle only present when shifting (clutch disengaged) or is it all the time; during highway cruising for example?

[Tylerm99]

As for the ancillary items, slave + master cyl. and rear main seal. Note, the rear main isn't a requirement but since it's right there should be addressed. Also keep in mind that since your trans will be out it's a great time to check/replace anything behind the engine / hard to reach including the rear coolant flange and of course the trans mount.

Replace the slave and master cylinder for the clutch? I am really unfamiliar with the Audi clutch\transmission system so sorry if that is a stupid question. I want to get everything ordered up before I take it to the shop.

I'll definitely replace the rear main, coolant flange and transmission mount as well.

Thanks for your help.

[a4darkness]

Not a stupid question at all.

Slave cylinders will wear out over time so using an old one with a new clutch usually means it'll fail quicker. As it's a relatively inexpensive item, it's wise to change it out. The master is a bit more expensive but since the system will need to be bled, it'll be a perfect opportunity to change it out as well. Master isn't mission critical but again it's a wise thing to do.

[Tylerm99]

That makes total sense to replace both cylinders then.

So my shopping list looks like this so far...

(CLICKABLE LINKS)

ECS RA4 Steel Flywheel Kit
VAST Stage 2 Clutch
Rear main seal
Clutch master cylinder (Sachs)
Clutch slave cylinder (Sachs)
Rear coolant flange
Snub mount (APR one via ECS)
Neuspeed torque damper
Transmission mount (can't find this online anywhere?)

Does that look like a fairly complete list to you guys? What part # is the transmission mount that was suggested earlier in this thread?

Any suggestions for alternatives?

Thanks again, I'm looking forward to getting this all done!

[M-Hood]

Is the rattle only present when shifting (clutch disengaged) or is it all the time; during highway cruising for example?

When the car is sitting at idle, out of gear and the pedal not pushed. Basically when the clutch is engaged but the car is not in gear.

[seadoo2006]

I have the Stage 1+ Unitronic tune. Recently replaced my clutch at 114k. I went (on the recommendation of my close friend and mechanic) with the Valeo Lightweight Flywheel, but paired it with the S4 clutch disc for better torque holding. Ended up being only like $500 in parts. Extremely economical and it works great, has OEM pedal feel, and grips strong.

[M-Hood]

I have the Stage 1+ Unitronic tune. Recently replaced my clutch at 114k. I went (on the recommendation of my close friend and mechanic) with the Valeo Lightweight Flywheel, but paired it with the S4 clutch disc for better torque holding. Ended up being only like $500 in parts. Extremely economical and it works great, has OEM pedal feel, and grips strong.

How are you using a S4 240mm flywheel on a 228mm clutch/flywheel? That isn't even possible and a S4 organic disk isn't going to be any stronger then a A4 organic disk seeing that they both have the same material.

[CyberPMG]

If you're keeping it as is and not mod it for more power, the complete ECS RA4 Stage 1 kit will be a good fit. It uses an OEM S4 clutch and pressure plate... items designed by Audi for Audi and guaranteed butter smooth shifting and engagement.

I have the ECS RA4 Stage 2 kit which gives you an OEM B5 RS4 clutch and pressure plate... again designed by Audi for Audi for perfect shifting and engagement. I went with Stage 2 because I knew I would move up to a bigger turbo and more power. I have over 160,000 miles on it with no issues.

You can't go wrong with the complete kit.

[Tylerm99]

If you're keeping it as is and not mod it for more power, the complete ECS RA4 Stage 1 kit will be a good fit. It uses an OEM S4 clutch and pressure plate... items designed by Audi for Audi and guaranteed butter smooth shifting and engagement.

I have the ECS RA4 Stage 2 kit which gives you an OEM B5 RS4 clutch and pressure plate... again designed by Audi for Audi for perfect shifting and engagement. I went with Stage 2 because I knew I would move up to a bigger turbo and more power. I have over 160,000 miles on it with no issues.

You can't go wrong with the complete kit.

If I moved up to a K04 down the road would a complete ECS RA4 Stage1 be enough?

[old guy]

As to your list on post #20: I would skip replacing the master cylinder unless you have reason to believe yours is causing problems. They really don't wear out all that often and are a real pain in the ass to replace.

[Tylerm99]

As to your list on post #20: I would skip replacing the master cylinder unless you have reason to believe yours is causing problems. They really don't wear out all that often and are a real pain in the ass to replace.

Good to know. I'm not having any issues with mine at all (knock on wood).

I'm having a shop do the work but if it saves me an hour at shop rates then I'm OK with that!

[Charles.waite]

How are you using a S4 240mm flywheel on a 228mm clutch/flywheel? That isn't even possible and a S4 organic disk isn't going to be any stronger then a A4 organic disk seeing that they both have the same material.

The Bentley manual I have says that my 2004 1.8t 6-speed (02X) has a 240mm disc. Wouldn't that mean I could bolt up a S4 240mm disc all else being equal?

Or did I misread it. ETKA says all 1.8t's have a 228mm clutch and its the 3.0s that have the 240mm.

[Tylerm99]

The Bentley manual I have says that my 2004 1.8t 6-speed (02X) has a 240mm disc. Wouldn't that mean I could bolt up a S4 240mm disc all else being equal?

Or did I misread it. ETKA says all 1.8t's have a 228mm clutch and its the 3.0s that have the 240mm.

Based on all my research so far the 1.8t always has the 228mm from the factory.

[M-Hood]

The Bentley manual I have says that my 2004 1.8t 6-speed (02X) has a 240mm disc. Wouldn't that mean I could bolt up a S4 240mm disc all else being equal?

Or did I misread it. ETKA says all 1.8t's have a 228mm clutch and its the 3.0s that have the 240mm.

You must have misread it. All of the 1.8t's (5 speed and 6 speed) came with a 228mm clutch/flywheel. As for the 6 speed and 240mm clutch, it must have been talking about the B7 A4 2.0T which uses the same transmission as the late B6 A4 1.8t with the 6 speed.

[Charles.waite]

You must have misread it. All of the 1.8t's (5 speed and 6 speed) came with a 228mm clutch/flywheel. As for the 6 speed and 240mm clutch, it must have been talking about the B7 A4 2.0T which uses the same transmission as the late B6 A4 1.8t with the 6 speed.

Alright so i checked the bentley when I got home and in fact I was right, at least about them saying its a 240mm clutch:
02X Trans:


01E & 01X:


01A:


Anyway not trying to start an argument, and Mike, I know you deal with a LOT of clutches so I just want to confirm that the Bentley is wrong. My Trans code is GJW so its definitely a 02X.

[Turbo_Whip]

Yes it is more cost effective, mainly because it uses a machined cast flywheel while the other 240mm kits on the market use a machined billet flywheel. Billet is always going to cost more then Cast, Billet will always be stronger and have less flaws.

Good to know! So im guessing the CM 240mm flywheel included in the FX100-300 etc kits uses a billet flywheel?

[seadoo2006]

If you go to the Valeo single mass flywheel (which is also significantly cheaper than the OEM dual mass), the disc size is upped from the factory 228mm to 240mm. This is also why any upgraded clutch kit for the 2002 1.8t's come with a 240mm flywheel. There are not any aftermarket kits I know of that utilize a 228mm flywheel. This allows you to bolt on whatever clutch disc and pressure plate you want. I went with the S4's as it's rated for the 300+ ft-lbs that the V8 has, thus, more holding power from a stock, chipped, 1.8t.

I had installed:

Valeo Single-Mass 240mm flywheel
Valeo OE Replacement B6 S4 clutch disc and pressure plate
OE Slave Cylinder

Also, to note, I have a 2002 A4 1.8t 5-speed and this all bolts right up and works great. No squeaks, no rattles, just an OE feel clutch with a slightly stronger hold rating.

[Turbo_Whip]

If you go to the Valeo single mass flywheel (which is also significantly cheaper than the OEM dual mass), the disc size is upped from the factory 228mm to 240mm. This is also why any upgraded clutch kit for the 2002 1.8t's come with a 240mm flywheel. There are not any aftermarket kits I know of that utilize a 228mm flywheel. This allows you to bolt on whatever clutch disc and pressure plate you want. I went with the S4's as it's rated for the 300+ ft-lbs that the V8 has, thus, more holding power from a stock, chipped, 1.8t.

I had installed:

Valeo Single-Mass 240mm flywheel
Valeo OE Replacement B6 S4 clutch disc and pressure plate
OE Slave Cylinder

Also, to note, I have a 2002 A4 1.8t 5-speed and this all bolts right up and works great. No squeaks, no rattles, just an OE feel clutch with a slightly stronger hold rating.

See post #23, I dont think the valeo single mass flywheel/clutch kit comes in 240mm. Where did you get yours from?

[M-Hood]

Alright so i checked the bentley when I got home and in fact I was right, at least about them saying its a 240mm clutch:


Anyway not trying to start an argument, and Mike, I know you deal with a LOT of clutches so I just want to confirm that the Bentley is wrong. My Trans code is GJW so its definitely a 02X.

Clutch/flywheel are part of the engine not the transmission. The 058/06A come with a 228mm clutch/flywheel, the 06B comes with a 240mm. So on the A4 1.8t the transmission code has nothing to do with the clutch/flywheel. I think that might be where the confusion might be when it comes to the Bentley since it is mixing the clutch info in with the transmission info.

Good to know! So im guessing the CM 240mm flywheel included in the FX100-300 etc kits uses a billet flywheel?

Yes, the CM 240mm FX100-FX400 all come with a steel flywheel. The test CM 240mm kit came with a billet aluminum flywheel, but after that 1 it has been nothing but billet steel since it is better for a daily driver.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

If I moved up to a K04 down the road would a complete ECS RA4 Stage1 be enough?

Yes that would be plenty.

Jason

[M-Hood]

If you go to the Valeo single mass flywheel (which is also significantly cheaper than the OEM dual mass), the disc size is upped from the factory 228mm to 240mm. This is also why any upgraded clutch kit for the 2002 1.8t's come with a 240mm flywheel. There are not any aftermarket kits I know of that utilize a 228mm flywheel. This allows you to bolt on whatever clutch disc and pressure plate you want. I went with the S4's as it's rated for the 300+ ft-lbs that the V8 has, thus, more holding power from a stock, chipped, 1.8t.

I had installed:

Valeo Single-Mass 240mm flywheel
Valeo OE Replacement B6 S4 clutch disc and pressure plate
OE Slave Cylinder

Also, to note, I have a 2002 A4 1.8t 5-speed and this all bolts right up and works great. No squeaks, no rattles, just an OE feel clutch with a slightly stronger hold rating.

Been dealing with A4 1.8t clutch kits for 10+ years and that would be news to me and I have had the Valeo clutch/flywheel kit in my hand right at Clutch Masters and pretty sure it was 228mm. Nearly all of the clutch/flywheel kits on the market for the A4 1.8t are 228mm. The ones that offer 240mm conversion kits are Clutch Masters, Spec and ECS.

Wish to post up a Valeo part number for a 240mm A4 1.8t Flywheel?

[Tylerm99]

Yes that would be plenty.

Jason

Thanks Jason,

I have to say your involvement here on the forums has been a big reason for me to become a new customer of yours.

I ordered the ECS RA4 Stage 1 clutch kit, a snub mount, rear coolant flange, slave cylinder, AND the H&R Sport Spring & Bilstein Sport Shocks Combo last night! All from ECS.

After having some problems with the checkout online I called and spoke to a rep by the name of Andy. He was great, super friendly and took my order over the phone. He even suggested sourcing the rear main seal elsewhere because it would delay my order by up to a week! That's great customer service right there. I can't wait to get my new parts on the car.

Next on the wish list is a big brake kit and exhaust setup.

Thanks to everyone here who helped with great information and discussion!

Cheers!

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

Thanks Jason,

I have to say your involvement here on the forums has been a big reason for me to become a new customer of yours.

I ordered the ECS RA4 Stage 1 clutch kit, a snub mount, rear coolant flange, slave cylinder, AND the H&R Sport Spring & Bilstein Sport Shocks Combo last night! All from ECS.

After having some problems with the checkout online I called and spoke to a rep by the name of Andy. He was great, super friendly and took my order over the phone. He even suggested sourcing the rear main seal elsewhere because it would delay my order by up to a week! That's great customer service right there. I can't wait to get my new parts on the car.

Next on the wish list is a big brake kit and exhaust setup.

Thanks to everyone here who helped with great information and discussion!

Cheers!

Thanks for the order!! Always love to see orders with a bunch of mods! Once its all installed it makes your car exciting and fun to drive again like when you first got it. The mod bug is hard to satisfy though once you've been bitten!

Thanks again for the positive feed back- it goes a long way! You guys make being on the forums that much more enjoyable when we hear people are excited about their cars, especially during the winter months.

Jason

[t28sentra]

Good choice TYLERM99...

I called Valeo to verify some info before parting together my setup. I have to agree with M-HOOD on this. The only option they have is 228mm setup for 1.8T applications. They also informed me that NO OTHER pressure plate, except their own, will work with the flywheel conversion. I know it's a great setup, but you'll always be limited by the rated 275ftlb capacity. Unless someone has made modifications to one, or Valeo's information is wrong altogether.