Comparing the FrankenTurbo F4H to the TiAL 605

[FlyboyS4]

Turbo Comparison

[Leflerej]

well put together write up.

[witwer4444]

great write up

[034Motorsport]

Nice write up.

My only comment is that from the FT cars we've had on the dyno, they spool identical to K04's so I've yet to see this "K03 spool", especially since my K03's spooled by 3000rpm.

That being said, they do seem to put down 20+ whp more @ the same boost as K04s, but we need to see some more before making any assumptions.

Regardless, glad you are happy with the work you put in to change turbos and its nice when people document and share their experiences.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I've been a very strong advocate of the Frankenturbos on any platform. As far as I'm concerned you can't beat them value wise. I ran against a FT S4 a little while back with my 60-1 1.8T and although we were dead even in a 3-4 gear pull, I had to pull out all the stops to do it. I've rode shotgun in that car and I can promise it's near the 400 WHP mark even at 3500 ft elevation.

Personally, I think these FT's are a lot closer to the Tial 605's than a lot of would-be butt hurt Tial owners who paid way too much for a pair of shiny compressor wheels want to admit.

[Don Supreme]

FTs definitely get the job done IMHO.. On a stock motor S4, I really don't know the real world difference between 605s and FTs........... One car, maybe two cars?

Plus you are not always racing, sometimes you just want to ball out coming around a corner or making sudden maneuvers while @ lower RPM.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Personally, I think these FT's are a lot closer to the Tial 605's than a lot of would-be butt hurt Tial owners who paid way too much for a pair of shiny compressor wheels want to admit.

Posts like this obviously show quite the opposite of who is actually "butt hurt"

[ColinAndrews]

Cool comparison. I think people get too caught up in the "bigger is better" horsepower war, and don't realise that they might be overdoing it, or spending money for performance they rarely use.

As you said at the end of it, to each their own. I find with K04s and 500+HP I can easily get into way too much trouble, and never find myself saying "I need more power" in a daily driver.

[KNaudi]

like I said on QW, thank you for putting this together.

Semi on topic: what kinda of miles have people put on the FT setups? anyone with 50k+ miles? I know that might be asking for a lot but the big appeal to most of us who go with K04s is the proven track record.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Posts like this obviously show quite the opposite of who is actually "butt hurt"

Hey man, don't think that I'm loosing any sleep over the fact that people are paying an extra $1500-$2000 for the Tials.

[ColinAndrews]

Can we not turn this into a dick measuring thread? Can both of you just leave it?

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Fair enough, besides, I'm perfectly happy with the length of my mastodonic penis

[judeisnotobscur]

Great comparison, thanks for sharing.

[034Motorsport]

As you said at the end of it, to each their own. I find with K04s and 500+HP I can easily get into way too much trouble, and never find myself saying "I need more power" in a daily driver.

Very good point. I had 3 speeding tickets in 1 month in my 180whp A4 V6 hahahha; at 400whp right now, it takes a V1 detector and every bit of self-restraint to not just sit at 20psi all day!!!

I would say that while there is some overlap of 605 and FT potential buyers, as Flyboy is a perfect example of, they are still a separate type of turbo in our opinion. FT (so far) seems to be a great K04 alternative, but I wouldn't necessarily group it as a 605 alternative. The 605 can push 30psi (much more then FT) and can push the limits of the stock block and into rod territory. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that FT are going to snap any rods either, whereas the 605 have that capability. I wouldn't go Tial 605 if you are happy with 425whp and never plan on building the motor, unless you can see value in the other differences (which not everyone will).

There are also folks who just like the idea of running a turbo below its maximum limit; ie, a Tial 605 @ 20psi and 425whp is under a lot less stress then a smaller framed turbo trying to achieve the same results. 605's have been out a bit longer then FT, but both are journal bearing and neither have been out long enough to make any super long term assumptions about extreme reliability. The Tial's also come with a much more comprehensive kit, encompassing new custom oil lines, coolant lines, much more secure stainless wastegate lines, etc. While the FT are nice for their K04 style bolt in and drastically cheaper, I don't think its quite fair to compare package to package (ie, you do get "more" with the more expensive kit). Now, whether that extra stuff is worth it to you, that is the main question!

The only last thing I will say, is that these turbos are designed for a somewhat different powerband. FT's are going to fall on their face at a certain upper rpm, negating any need (or real benefit) of revving very high. 605 on the otherhand can both produce enough boost and can flow enough to see benefits of valve springs and retainers, etc. However...for many folks, they rarely rarely ever get past 6000rpm. I happen to head over the 7000 mark pretty often.

[Cadiburns]

Very good point. I had 3 speeding tickets in 1 month in my 180whp A4 V6 hahahha; at 400whp right now, it takes a V1 detector and every bit of self-restraint to not just sit at 20psi all day!!!

I would say that while there is some overlap of 605 and FT potential buyers, as Flyboy is a perfect example of, they are still a separate type of turbo in our opinion. FT (so far) seems to be a great K04 alternative, but I wouldn't necessarily group it as a 605 alternative. The 605 can push 30psi (much more then FT) and can push the limits of the stock block and into rod territory. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that FT are going to snap any rods either, whereas the 605 have that capability. I wouldn't go Tial 605 if you are happy with 425whp and never plan on building the motor, unless you can see value in the other differences (which not everyone will).

There are also folks who just like the idea of running a turbo below its maximum limit; ie, a Tial 605 @ 20psi and 425whp is under a lot less stress then a smaller framed turbo trying to achieve the same results. 605's have been out a bit longer then FT, but both are journal bearing and neither have been out long enough to make any super long term assumptions about extreme reliability. The Tial's also come with a much more comprehensive kit, encompassing new custom oil lines, coolant lines, much more secure stainless wastegate lines, etc. While the FT are nice for their K04 style bolt in and drastically cheaper, I don't think its quite fair to compare package to package (ie, you do get "more" with the more expensive kit). Now, whether that extra stuff is worth it to you, that is the main question!

The only last thing I will say, is that these turbos are designed for a somewhat different powerband. FT's are going to fall on their face at a certain upper rpm, negating any need (or real benefit) of revving very high. 605 on the otherhand can both produce enough boost and can flow enough to see benefits of valve springs and retainers, etc. However...for many folks, they rarely rarely ever get past 6000rpm. I happen to head over the 7000 mark pretty often.

Excellent points.

[Hyphy]

Indeed. Thanks Max.

[Gujuhammer]

This is a really great write up and I will be referencing it when it comes time for me to get bigger turbos.

[MikeyB3]

All things considered, a VERY great write-up, and easily read and understandable. Thanks.

Yeah, each one has their benefits, and it all depends on the drive and their use for the car and power. Having said that, I never spent much time in the upper revs because I was on K03s, I always felt that them falling on their face around 5500revs was a waste. Having said THAT, now that I've got my own build going on, with internals and head work, I'd imagine that my style of driving will drastically change, knowing that I have full use of a wide powerband. Just my 2 cents.

[FlyboyS4]

I don't think anyone here is going to argue that FT are going to snap any rods either,

Since I have limited experience in this area I started getting nervous when I was seeing 27 psi @ 3500 and brushing up just under 28 psi. 27 was holding until 5000 rpm. The frankenturbo's seem easily capable of holding that pressure at the lower airflow, so you think that it is not unreasonable to operate at that level? I basically got scared and ran away, lol. With torque peaking between 4000-4500, my thinking was that 27 psi wasn't very safe with my stock motor.

[Don Supreme]

FT's are going to fall on their face at a certain upper rpm, negating any need (or real benefit) of revving very high.

FTs do not "Fall on their face" within the standard rpm range of a stock engine 6500-7000 rpm ish. They aren't top end monsters, but they keep the car moving along just fine.... ko3s fall on their face.

FTs hold HP all the way to red line (as seen on many dynos). (YES tq falls off, but TQ always falls off (outside the scope of this discussion)).

[Cadiburns]

Too much torque, too soon, too fast and you're going to be bending rods.

[AMC]

i made the cut! nice write up!

[Schoolbus4]

Nice write up

now go ahead and do another comparison but this time the new gtx vs 770r SO I CAN DECIDE WHICH ONE TO BUY j/k

[mushasho]

Too much torque, too soon, too fast and you're going to be bending rods.

Which mean they pack more punch down low.... I find that this setup combine with meth for added timing up top *could* be a great street recipe.

Sent from my Mobile Handheld device

[Spooled1.8]

Outstanding write up, It's refreshing to see data such as this still being produced and exhibited online.

[bigern45]

that is definitely one of the nicest most inconclusive write ups ive seen.

[Alex818]

Great Write up. I think i Speak for everyone on this forum when i say "Thank you for all the hard work in putting this together."

[S-Power]

Good shit bro

[zakario]

Great write up. Is there any reason in particular why you chose not to use meth?

[034Motorsport]

FTs do not "Fall on their face" within the standard rpm range of a stock engine 6500-7000 rpm ish. They aren't top end monsters, but they keep the car moving along just fine.... ko3s fall on their face.

FTs hold HP all the way to red line (as seen on many dynos). (YES tq falls off, but TQ always falls off (outside the scope of this discussion)).

I didn't say they were falling on their face at 6500rpm or within the range that most folks use, and I especially didn't say anything about K03's. I am also not arguing Don, that they don't "hold HP" to redline. What I was trying to iterate is that 605 don't just "hold HP" to redline, they make HP to redline. I also stated that most people, never reach that point!

My point was to illustrate that the 605 and FT aren't the same turbo, and they each have their advantages, and that if you want to rev out (ie built heads with springs and retainers, etc), there isn't a point with FT unless you have larger plans in the future.

Also...when I say that no one here is going to argue bending of rods, I'm talking about using these turbos in their intended range. Is anyone here also claiming that FT's should and can be run at 27psi, spike or not? You can run K04's to 27psi if you'd like, and yes, you will make more power then 24psi. How much more power? Very little extra power for the extra stress, in my opinion. Each tuner has their own opinion, but after trying different things, we didn't find enough reason to push beyond 20psi, where they seem to be hitting about 415-420whp on 91, without meth. I don't feel a split second of extra power from spiking hard is worth the risks; you are only in that spike for a very short period of time, especially in the lower gears where these turbos will shine more.

Anyways, I was really just trying to agree with Flyboy on most of his points, and only add that there are some advantages (and of course disadvantages) to the 605 that I didn't see mentioned. Everyone I know who has FT loves them and is very happy with them. Everyone I know who has 605 also loves them, and is very happy with them. A couple of those guys would probably be happy with either or, but the other guys chose their respective turbos for similar reasons to what I described above.

[Doug@FrankenTurbo]

...Everyone I know who has FT loves them and is very happy with them. Everyone I know who has 605 also loves them, and is very happy with them.

I love love. Jeff, thanks for the thorough, even-handed, and CLEAR explanation of things. I especially liked how you detailed your learning process. I'm really glad to have been a part of your experiment.

Thx

dh

[Korben007]

FTs do not "Fall on their face" within the standard rpm range of a stock engine 6500-7000 rpm ish. They aren't top end monsters, but they keep the car moving along just fine.... ko3s fall on their face.

FTs hold HP all the way to red line (as seen on many dynos). (YES tq falls off, but TQ always falls off (outside the scope of this discussion)).

My peak 400+whp is from 6000 to 7000+ rpm. Definitely pull hard all the way to rev limit.

And yes torque always falls off quite a bit at high rpm. But i blame that more on cam profile and head design then turbos.

[S4 00 2.7]

Good write-up. This is helpful for those in the market for either turbo.

[Don Supreme]

My peak 400+whp is from 6000 to 7000+ rpm. Definitely pull hard all the way to rev limit.

And yes torque always falls off quite a bit at high rpm. But i blame that more on cam profile and head design then turbos.

Thats the point I was trying to make to Max, but he seems to have a hard on for FTs for some reason..

"Falling on its face" @ a certain RPM... If you mean 9000 RPM, then really thats non-sense. The FT setup produces a wide power band that holds to red line on a stock motor. It does not "fall on its face" within reasonable engine speed.

Furthermore, 605s aren't exactly making waves @ 8000 RPM on a stock cam and head setup (stock mani, tb, ports, cams, etc, etc).

[highPSI-S4]

Awesome write-up!! Thanks for sharing.

[jasonsowers]

I've been a very strong advocate of the Frankenturbos on any platform. As far as I'm concerned you can't beat them value wise. I ran against a FT S4 a little while back with my 60-1 1.8T and although we were dead even in a 3-4 gear pull, I had to pull out all the stops to do it. I've rode shotgun in that car and I can promise it's near the 400 WHP mark even at 3500 ft elevation.

Personally, I think these FT's are a lot closer to the Tial 605's than a lot of would-be butt hurt Tial owners who paid way too much for a pair of shiny compressor wheels want to admit.

I personally think you have no basis to state this stupid ass opinon. Have you seen 26-27 psi on FT's? Have you seen 500whp on ft's?

Shut the fuck up.

I've seen 490whp at 5k..

Please post the dyno slip or logs and i'll sell my tials buy you lunch and jerk you off.

[mikehawk666]

[S4James]

I personally think you have no basis to state this stupid ass opinon. Have you seen 26-27 psi on FT's? Have you seen 500whp on ft's?

Shut the fuck up.

I've seen 490whp at 5k..

Please post the dyno slip or logs and i'll sell my tials buy you lunch and jerk you off.

Awesome!

[Cadiburns]

I personally think you have no basis to state this stupid ass opinon. Have you seen 26-27 psi on FT's? Have you seen 500whp on ft's?

Shut the fuck up.

I've seen 490whp at 5k..

Please post the dyno slip or logs and i'll sell my tials buy you lunch and jerk you off.

LOL! Awesome.

[Malmhead]

This analysis almost makes me want to go with FT's over 605's as well.

Originally, I wanted the FT's but found out about the 605's through this board. The 605's give you an extra 50hp on a stock motor, but, is that really worth it? Looking at the acceleration graph, the FT's have a greater integral value at the low end than the 605's have over the FT's on the high end. I am very curious as to how that translates to on the street numbers. I see the FATS times are basically identical in the graphs, but are 0-60 and 1/4 mile ETs basically the same on the same motor then?

If the stock motor's performance times are the same regardless of turbo it seems like you're paying $1,300 for a 50hp dyno queen.

Sure there is the argument that you can always build the motor later and the 605's are not working at maximum, but when I found out about the 770's I knew instantly that whenever I built the motor I would swap the 605's for the 770's.

Am I wrong on this?