APR Stage 2 Tune and Shifting/LC issues hmm?

[Kay15]

So I have had everything fixed and the road adaptaion was done about 250kms of adaptation was put on just to smooth out the shifting points. I also did that for about 45min on my drive back home. But as soon as I flipped into a diff map I tried the LC off the red light the revs would jump to about 3900 just under 4k. I found it odd but when I was in stock mode it was at 3K. So I tried a few diff mixes to see if it was constant to the ecu maps when the revs would change.

Now i have noticed on STOCK mode launch control lifts off at 3k no problem right when I left off the brake the car goes. On any tune the cars RPM for launch moves up to just under 4k to about 3900k and lags when the launch kick in a much softer launch. When I mean any tune I left the car at the dealer with 60kms left in the reserve of 91 they had to top it up with 20 dollars of 94 to do the road test when I got it had only about 80kms left in the reserve I went topped up on more 94 flipped over to the 94 program and gave it about a 15min drive around and I feel the power it is there but the shifts are short of red line. I did the LC with ASR off and ASR and ESP off it lifts to 3900 and when I let off the brake it has almost a 2 second delay! When in Stock mode when you flip back to stock do it with either ASR off and ASR and ESP off it it goes only to 3k rpm and as soon as you left off it kicks but it short shifts when you use LC but if you are rolling in first gear and punch it it shifts at redline but between 2-3 it short shifts at about 6600 rpm but 3rd shifts at red and so does 4th. When the Tune is on the shifts are always about 6700 always just short of red line.


Now I am wondering if anyone else notices that the LC revs go up when the tune is on and if in stock mode the revs stay at 3K and if that is the case what is the reason for this? Why is there such a variation in the launches. Note it is not the Stage 2 itself it is with the tune all together because I had the same problem before but never tested it to this extent and thought it maybe because of the tranny faulting as I would never use LC in stock mode ever anyways.


APR? .. Anyone else notice this?

Just so everyone knows it is the 2011 Audi S4 with Sport Diff with Stage 2 intake pipe and muffler delete with upgraded Pulley from APR.
Brand new Mechatronics was put in and I still cannot figure out why the launches are so much more effective off 3k and there is almost a 2 second delay when they rev at just under 4k. I will also try keeping the revs around 3k preventing them to stop form going all the way up I notice I can kind of dictate that with throttle position as well instead of hitting the kick down or not hitting the kick down. Clearly there is a problem or a difference here but I cant figure out what or why.

[clochner]

Yep, myself and several others have noticed this. Bottom line: the APR Stage II tune alters LC in two ways - (1) revs go up to around 4k as opposed to 3k w/ stock, and (2) the launch itself is significantly diminished from what stock can do. I prolly won't even use LC anymore, as there is NO WAY it is more effective than just slamming on the throttle. I tried bringing this to Arin's attention in a separate thread but got shot down pretty quickly.

[Arin@APR]

The stock Engine Control Unit has a standing revlimiter.

The stock DSG Transmission Control Unit has a standing revlimiter.

The stock 6MT does not have a Transmission Control Unit so it does not set a standing revlimiter.

The APR Tune sets the ECU standing revlimiter to redline so you can rev to whatever RPM you want.

************************************************** ****************************************

Do DSG customer want the standing revlimiter set to stock?

This will prevent future DSG TCU software from setting launch control higher.

[clochner]

I wouldn't mind if the car continued to launch @ 4k as long as I get the same kind of "kick" that I got w/ stock (hell, even APR Stage I for that matter). The real problem is that the effectiveness of LC has been significantly diminished since installing the Stage II ECU. The car simply doesn't launch like it used to when engaging LC.

Is it possible that the Stage II tune is hitting the DSG's maximum torque/power potential, and thus the TCU is automatically diminishing the launch b/c of this?

[Arin@APR]

Launch control doesn't actually product any real load on the engine before launching, so if there is a 2 second delay before it actually does anything, I don't see how the TCU could be hitting a limiter, shutting down power.

As always, we'd have to log it and see what's up.

[misc720]

I wouldn't mind if the car continued to launch @ 4k as long as I get the same kind of "kick" that I got w/ stock (hell, even APR Stage I for that matter). The real problem is that the effectiveness of LC has been significantly diminished since installing the Stage II ECU. The car simply doesn't launch like it used to when engaging LC.

Is it possible that the Stage II tune is hitting the DSG's maximum torque/power potential, and thus the TCU is automatically diminishing the launch b/c of this?

I'm curious, if you engage launch control, but then use your foot to modulate the throttle and bring revs down to 3k before releasing the brake, do you get that old "kick"? If so, then maybe the solution would be as simple as Arin says, just reflash the ECU standing limiter to 3k. If not, then maybe there's something else going on here.

As Arin said, log it!

[clochner]

I'm curious, if you engage launch control, but then use your foot to modulate the throttle and bring revs down to 3k before releasing the brake, do you get that old "kick"? If so, then maybe the solution would be as simple as Arin says, just reflash the ECU standing limiter to 3k. If not, then maybe there's something else going on here.

As Arin said, log it!

I can definitely try this when I get a chance, although it may be hard to time it correctly to launch @ 3k. And I'm not sure if it's possible to bring the RPMs down to 3k once it has already revved to nearly 4k.

[Arin@APR]

Just put your foot on the gas slowly and bring the revs up to 3K.

[moveovr12]

Just put your foot on the gas slowly and bring the revs up to 3K.

I've tried doing this, and it makes no difference...launch control is still pretty useless.

[Arin@APR]

Strange. I don't think any of the DSG's we've had here even had launch control. :/

[theKB]

I ran at the track with both the stock motor and with stage 2+ 100 oct file. 60 ft time was only fastest when the revs started to fall because staging took too long. Launch was much more violent that way than it ever was with the 4000rpm launch.

Arguably the best 60ft times with LC were with launch control.

Would be nice to get the extra few RPM's up top but the changes with the LC are definitely detrimental.

I think having the standing limiter at 3k (if that will in fact change things) until the time that HPA releases a tune that changes the parameters of the TCU.

[clochner]

Interesting experiment: use my new dynolicious app to record 0-60 times for stock LC and Stage II LC (assuming, of course, that stock mode's LC is not affected by the Stage II ECU). I may just give it a try this weekend.

Arin - if you have a chance, try LC on both a stock car (or even w/ APR Stage I) and a Stage II car. You'll notice the difference we're talking about.

[Kay15]

I tried it by slowly bringing the revs to about 3k it takes about 60% throttle give or take and it does nothing same useless delay no kick that it why any other car with AWD is taking off the line on me and cars taht squeel are right there next to me out of the dig. I even tried to time it to the lights counting 3 seconds it takes on yellow to go and letting off on it a little earlier to see if it is more effective but requires timing.. Nothing it is hard to time and it is almost you are standing still for 2 whole seconds that is a big difference!

I just spent 2hours finicing with it I dont have any way to log it no vag cable or anything but it really blows I thought it was the tranny all along to some extent probably still is for the red lining but the useless Launch Control gives us nothing I think we may get better response by just flooring it but I dont have a way to meassure times and in that case I would rather a standing 3k hold as stock.

DONT tell me I got to send the ecu back again :( ... FML!!!

[joneze93tsi]

I'll chime in on this as well.
It seems to be something that happens over time.

I had my car flashed on a Monday (drove about 1500 miles that week)
Took it to the track that friday, make 15 passes with launch control always launching at 3k.

1 week later, I tried launch control, and now it did the same thing, revs up to nearly 4K, and when you let it off, it sort of slowly rolls out, rpm's fall and then it catches.
Oddly, I made zero LC passes between the track and the last time, almost like something just decided to switch over or adapt.

FWIW, launch control doesn't seem to help anyone anyway, Ron's cutting a 1.6 now with his patented 1-2 mash.
I tried it a few times and got the hang of it with much wheel spin on the street, which is promising.
When I make it back to the track, i'll just stick with Ron's launch until someone comes out with a updated DSG flash.

[Arin@APR]

Hmm... If it happens over time, can someone clear ecu codes (even if none exist) and try lc right away? Try the same with the dsg controller.

[FourRingRider]

Arin, I just had my ECU there earlier today for the loaded stage 1 tune and it is currently in transit back to me via next day air... I am seriously hoping the tune doesn't change the LC behavior. This was a specific question that I previously asked Ryan about early on and was told that the tune does NOT affect the LC functionality in any way. I want it to always launch just like it did @ stock 3000 rpm. Please confirm asap before I install... Thanks!!!

[ilspazzaneve]

This will prevent future DSG TCU software from setting launch control higher.

Stop teasing us!!

[FourRingRider]

I had my car flashed on a Monday (drove about 1500 miles that week)
Took it to the track that friday, make 15 passes with launch control always launching at 3k.

1 week later, I tried launch control, and now it did the same thing, revs up to nearly 4K, and when you let it off, it sort of slowly rolls out, rpm's fall and then it catches.
Oddly, I made zero LC passes between the track and the last time, almost like something just decided to switch over or adapt.

Which tune are you running... Stage 1 or Stage 2?

[QSonx]

Hmm... If it happens over time, can someone clear ecu codes (even if none exist) and try lc right away? Try the same with the dsg controller.

Mine always launched at 3k. The day I installed my Stage II it changed to 3900; kind of sucks :-/

[FourRingRider]

Mine always launched at 3k. The day I installed my Stage II it changed to 3900; kind of sucks :-/

Were you previously Stage 1? I am curious if this problem is unique to the Stage 2 tune or does it occur on a Stage 1 tune as well???

[Kay15]

I guess we just leave it as in and get the TCU tune in the works APR we DSG'ers will wait :) I wouldnt mind a 3500 launch :) with better shifting points.

Cheers haha. 81Bear check your PM!

[Arin@APR]

I'm made engineering aware of this. We'll look to see if the standing revlimiter is changed like I mentioned in #3 (I could be wrong). I'll keep everyone updated.

Thank you!

[clochner]

Were you previously Stage 1? I am curious if this problem is unique to the Stage 2 tune or does it occur on a Stage 1 tune as well???

I used LC plenty of times on Stage I and never had a problem. It launched exactly the way it did in stock. It was only immediately after installing the Stage II that my LC changed. So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Arin: thnx for looking into this!

[Kay15]

I think we all agree that APR does great work and if the TCU software gets a little priorty because of this mis-hap we would not mind at all. We your customers do not mind helping push the limits and further testing of your products. Anything to get us the edge over those Bimmers haha =)

[Fonzie@DipYourCar]

i'm stage 1, LC revs to 4k, and slams out the gate fine. +1 for this being a stage 2 only problem

[FourRingRider]

I used LC plenty of times on Stage I and never had a problem. It launched exactly the way it did in stock. It was only immediately after installing the Stage II that my LC changed. So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

i'm stage 1, LC revs to 4k, and slams out the gate fine. +1 for this being a stage 2 only problem

Thanks for the info.... My ECU just arrived and I am debating whether I should install it or send it back to APR to have the ECU standing rev limiter reduced to the stock level 3k rpm.

I don't sit and rev up my engine while parked or in neutral so I really don't even see a need in having the ECU standing rev limiter removed. Maybe I am missing something here?

I must say I am concerned about what will happen since the standing rev limiter is removed from the ECU w/APR tune, but is still 4k on the TCU. So if and when the DSG TCU Software is brought to market then the TCU standing limiter would be increased therefore wouldn't the LC launch at red line? I think for reliability sake the car should always LC at 3k, unless someone specifically requests differently. I don't fully grasp the technical details involved here so feel free to school me at any time.

[FourRingRider]

UPDATE: I just spoke with Arin @ APR and he is looking into the current values set on the SRL (standing rev limiter) with the Stage 1 program, etc. He said he believes that the SRL was not modified on Stage 1 (so that dealers couldn't simply rev the engine in neutral to detect if the car is chipped) but he wants to check with engineering to be 100% certain. At this point he is waiting for a response from someone in engineering to look at the SRL values set on the Stage 1 tune. He will be posting the answer here shortly...

[QSonx]

Were you previously Stage 1? I am curious if this problem is unique to the Stage 2 tune or does it occur on a Stage 1 tune as well???

Nope. I went from nothing to Stage II

[r32breeze]

UPDATE: I just spoke with Arin @ APR and he is looking into the current values set on the SRL (standing rev limiter) with the Stage 1 program, etc. He said he believes that the SRL was not modified on Stage 1 (so that dealers couldn't simply rev the engine in neutral to detect if the car is chipped) but he wants to check with engineering to be 100% certain. At this point he is waiting for a response from someone in engineering to look at the SRL values set on the Stage 1 tune. He will be posting the answer here shortly...

Subscribed.

[Arin@APR]

I got word from engineering, the standing revlimiter is not altered on either ECU (Stage 1 or Stage 2+) (6MT or DSG).

Are people reporting this behavior on stage 1 or is it only stage 2+?

[DATZ]

I got word from engineering, the standing revlimiter is not altered on either ECU (Stage 1 or Stage 2+) (6MT or DSG).

Are people reporting this behavior on stage 1 or is it only stage 2+?

I've said this in other threads before, but my launch control changed from 3k to 4k BEFORE I had any APR software. I went straight from no software to Stage II, but my DSG had been launching at 4k for weeks before APR ever touched my car. I think this is an Audi TCU issue, not an APR issue. The 4k launches definitely arent as violent as the 3k launch.

[joneze93tsi]

I've said this in other threads before, but my launch control changed from 3k to 4k BEFORE I had any APR software. I went straight from no software to Stage II, but my DSG had been launching at 4k for weeks before APR ever touched my car. I think this is an Audi TCU issue, not an APR issue. The 4k launches definitely arent as violent as the 3k launch.

Nice,

Probably something that was just going to happen anyway..who knows.
We need a DSG flash STAT!

[Arin@APR]

I've said this in other threads before, but my launch control changed from 3k to 4k BEFORE I had any APR software. I went straight from no software to Stage II, but my DSG had been launching at 4k for weeks before APR ever touched my car. I think this is an Audi TCU issue, not an APR issue. The 4k launches definitely arent as violent as the 3k launch.

Reports like this make me think something else is at play... Anyone else experience this? Not many people have LC if I remember correctly... We'll all need to investigate further.

[clochner]

I've said this in other threads before, but my launch control changed from 3k to 4k BEFORE I had any APR software. I went straight from no software to Stage II, but my DSG had been launching at 4k for weeks before APR ever touched my car. I think this is an Audi TCU issue, not an APR issue. The 4k launches definitely arent as violent as the 3k launch.

Interesting. I used LC probably 20-25 times with stock and Stage I (about half w/ both), and the car consistently launched at 3k every time. IMMEDIATELY upon installing the Stage II ECU, however, the revs jumped to 4k and the launches have been WAY less "violent" (i.e., effective) ever since.

Adding another wrinkle into the mix is Fonzie's car. He confirmed again today that his car (Stage I) launches at 4k but is no less punchy than it was at 3k. Strange . . .

[FourRingRider]

Just got the ECU installed, selected the 93 tune. Drove around for 20-30 to allow the tune to somewhat adapt. Then tried out LC, it immediately noticed it revved to 3800. Something in the tune causes this to happen, as I have used LC 5-6 times in the last week prior to sending my ECU to APR and they all perfectly launched from 3k.

Maybe it's all in my head but the launch doesn't feel as hard as the original 3k launch. Still effective, but something seems different. The original LC would give me a second or two of the funny gut feeling like when taking a steep drop on a roller coaster, I don't really feel that anymore.

Here is a video of the launch...

http://youtu.be/4kzYJpIdDL4

[moveovr12]

The launch issue is definitely tune related. As an experiment today I switched back to "stock" mode, and the car launched at 3000 rpm...and it launched just as hard as I remember it from before the stage II tune. I then switched it back to the 91 tune, and it revd to about 3800 and launched like a scared little school girl.

[hbm5006]

Damn, I'm really reconsidering tuning in the near future. Can anyone with another type of tune(maybe stasis?) comment as well. It would be interesting to see if this is being seen across ALL chipped cars, not just APR chipped cars.

We gotta isolate this, and fix it, so I can buy my APR tune

[clochner]

Just got the ECU installed, selected the 93 tune. Drove around for 20-30 to allow the tune to somewhat adapt. Then tried out LC, it immediately noticed it revved to 3800. Something in the tune causes this to happen, as I have used LC 5-6 times in the last week prior to sending my ECU to APR and they all perfectly launched from 3k.

Maybe it's all in my head but the launch doesn't feel as hard as the original 3k launch. Still effective, but something seems different. The original LC would give me a second or two of the funny gut feeling like when taking a steep drop on a roller coaster, I don't really feel that anymore.

Here is a video of the launch...

http://youtu.be/4kzYJpIdDL4

It's not in your head - the impact of the launch undoubtedly diminishes w/ the higher revs. BTW - you're short-shifting in manual mode. Just keep it in "auto" mode and then floor it after you launch. Should take care of the short shifts. LC does not require you to be in manual (just ESP/ASR off, and in dynamic).

[clochner]

Can anyone with another type of tune(maybe stasis?) comment as well. It would be interesting to see if this is being seen across ALL chipped cars, not just APR chipped cars.

ALL chipped B8 S4s = APR-chipped B8 S4s.

[Kay15]

It is tune related because if it was not then in stock mode it would remain at 3800 rpm.

Arin what would you like for us ot look at or check for to help? I can try meet up with someone to search the car for codes but not sure when though but what would we be checking for.

So clearly the Stage 1 and 2 maps have not removed the SRL ? That is confirmed so that means something else is at play because its causing the remap to cause this hmm.. Have we looked into if the TCU can re limit it or what the TCU is reading when the stage map is on do we see any shifting properties or limiters changed?