*** INA : Official Audi B5 S4 2.7 TT - 2.0T Coil Pack Upgrade Thread ***

**EuroxS4** · 10-10-2011 07:32 PM

Not To bash you or anything.But heat range has everything to do with how a car's engine performs.

A spark plug is made up of ceramics, steels and nickel alloys. These materials do not have the ability to produce energy or heat. When we talk about the heat range of a spark plug, we're referring to its ability to move heat away from its tip or core nose into the cooling system. A cold spark plug would have a cooler tip temperature than a hot one. With fuels today, we know that anytime the tip of the ceramic core nose goes below 850 F, carbon will build up and the spark plug will foul. We also know that if the tip temperature of the plug exceeds 1550', the metals will begin to break down. At approximately 1700, the plug will glow and can become a source of pre-ignition within the combustion chamber. It's clear that maximum performance can be achieved with a spark plug that has a temperature of greater than 850 at idle, but no more than 1550' under wide open throttle.

So heat range has everything to do with that.Most of these cars are very forgiving,some people run plugs 1 heat range colder to compensate for the tune they have.I've seen many s4 running stock coils and different heat range plugs without any issues and produce great power without the need to upgrade the coils.Unless of course your building a monster truck engine for your s4 and need 2000hp then I can understand the need for the upgraded coils.

Originally Posted by Turbo Nerd

Wtf does changing the heat range on your plugs have to do with anything? I use NGK BKR7E's year round (some might step down to 6E for winter), obviously you don't know what your talking about and haven't read any valid information in this thread. The larger gap you run the hotter (stronger whatever terminology you want to use) spark you have, coils work harder to produce a hotter spark at a larger gap so these FSI/TFSI coils are stronger coils than ours.

Here's a test for you, go buy brand new bolt down coils for your S4 and run them at a .040 gap and lets see how long your coils last.... I bet you will have misfires right away. I'm not here to bash you but there's threads about these coils in the B5 and B6 A4 forum so please read before you start to make assumptions about something that you have no clue about.

**sweets4style** · 10-10-2011 08:17 PM

You are correct in the heat range explanation but that does little to increase performance compared to plug gap in practical application. It is more of an efficiency item and a functional check to make sure the plug is able to work at x and x a temp. Obviously if the car is a toy and your main goal is peak power your not so concerned with idle fouling as you care little how it runs there. But since most of us use these cars for dual purpose we should care. The plug gape enlargement will benefit us substantially more with better mileage, lean burns, and more usable power across the entire band.

On a side note though we all understand vendors need to make a profit and sometimes they are excessive and can be had cheaper. But the key is repeatability and dependability and I am sure he is able to put together a great package for the people who shy away from DIY tasks but yet have a little extra cash available. Little different then making one and ghetto rigging it to work but look horrible with iffy chances of survival throughout the years. However dont pretend like you invented something and are getting a patent for a piece of metal essentially a glorified shaped washer with 2 bolt holes. I am not trying to diminish your work but the way you come off is a bit ridiculous. You are taking what is already invented by audi and adding two more plugs just like they rewired the harness essentially from the old coil packs to the newer style in the 06a based motors. So again find a nicer way to present your frustration of people saying they can make it cheaper. It clearly isnt aimed at them.

**BeachCafeAudi** · 10-10-2011 08:46 PM

seems like a good product.

good luck selling this kit for $600.

**Ribbie** · 10-10-2011 08:47 PM

Interesting points of view, and maybe a few opinions.

Proof and experience are what matters to a product's reputation. hopefully with time some of those will come in the B5 community.

Heck not to mention something is Local!!

**CHAOSAUDI** · 10-10-2011 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by sweets4style

I am not trying to diminish your work but the way you come off is a bit ridiculous. You are taking what is already invented by audi and adding two more plugs just like they rewired the harness essentially from the old coil packs to the newer style in the 06a based motors. So again find a nicer way to present your frustration of people saying they can make it cheaper. It clearly isnt aimed at them.

Having known Issam for a few years now I can comfortably say he has a right to be ridiculous. Here is a guy that has taken thee time to create awareness into a modification to better the reliability of our cars , taken the investment to see it through and here we all are ridiculing his work just because he is protecting his investment. I am suree you will make this affordable as he did with the others let's ease off a lil.

**fatezero** · 10-10-2011 09:17 PM

God people on this forum need to grow up. If you dont like the price...don't freaking buy it! I am sure they take notice if no one buys them.

Who cares if he wants to make $300 profit?? Wow, 100% markup? Not unusual for this industry

**CHAOSAUDI** · 10-10-2011 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by nehalem

The fastest S4's in the world run the stock ignition system. Offer us a real price or go away. Sorry to hate but your select responses reek of profiteering and ignorance. If you were serious about offering everybody a real price, then it would be another matter. Let alone the fact that you are trying to group-buy this, which would further increase your margins.

So fucking what?
You sir should write a book on how to run a company because you figured it out!An advertiser selling a niche product for a profit! What a concept!

**jibberjive** · 10-10-2011 09:48 PM

It's funny that people think retail price for a product is up for debate. I share similar sentiment to many here, in that I think that's expensive for what it is, and I personally won't buy one at that price (and I think patenting a spacer is going a little far and will offer little realistic protection if someone wanted to "copy" the idea), but it's a business and he can ask/offer whatever he wants. As was said above, if you don't like his price, don't buy it. Let the invisible hand of the market do its work and determine if this product will sell at this price point, but don't tell him to get out of here for offering another product. Maybe it's not worth the time/effort invested to offer this at a lesser price than this, or maybe it is and these will come down in price soon when these don't sell. Either way, as a business and an advertiser, he has every right to put on the market and advertise on AZ anything he wants. Why do people act like making any profit is a crime? It's the sole reason any company exists.

**BeachCafeAudi** · 10-10-2011 11:01 PM

Would you rather sell 100 items for $150 profit or 20 items for $300 profit?

Profit maximization doesn't typically occur with low-volume high-margin sales. Have you heard of product flow? The gentlemen developing this product will almost surely not maximize his net profit with his current pricing structure. As someone said in an earlier post, the end demand will dictate the end price... so we'll see.

**Number54** · 10-10-2011 11:49 PM

We need a separate thread for all the people who can't seem to remain civil when price is involved.

It's too much money, blah, blah. Point made. We get it. You don't think it's reasonable. OK. You are entitled to you opinion, which is usually not interesting to the rest of us.

Technical issues however are interesting to most. Financial stuff is very personal.

**jibberjive** · 10-11-2011 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by nehalem

Would you rather sell 100 items for $150 profit or 20 items for $300 profit?

Profit maximization doesn't typically occur with low-volume high-margin sales. Have you heard of product flow? The gentlemen developing this product will almost surely not maximize his net profit with his current pricing structure. As someone said in an earlier post, the end demand will dictate the end price... so we'll see.

Your spurious example assumes that a certain amount of units will be sold. Without due diligence, your example holds no water, and I'm sure Issam has 10x the experience with what the consumer market for the B5 S4 is than you (unless you're some shop posting under a new account or something).

Either way, who cares about the price, I agree with 54, let's talk about the product.

**julex** · 10-11-2011 06:42 AM

I don't really see a problem here. Anybody with CNC access can make these adapters without much problem. The only real challenge is to make neat and fool proof harness.

I don't really know what he is trying to patent here, I don't think that even if issued, a patent for such adapter would hold any power since it is essentially based on prior art/other patents. I wonder what would audi have to say about that since they hold patents relating to engine "receptacle" side and coil side as well, or some company manufacturing it for them anyway.

**Wizard-of-OD** · 10-11-2011 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by julex

I don't really see a problem here. Anybody with CNC access can make these adapters without much problem. The only real challenge is to make neat and fool proof harness.
I don't really know what he is trying to patent here, I don't think that even if issued, a patent for such adapter would hold any power since it is essentially based on prior art/other patents. I wonder what would audi have to say about that since they hold patents relating to engine "receptacle" side and coil side as well, or some company manufacturing it for them anyway.

Gentlemen please I am going to ask again nicely. If you are not interested in the product then please do NOT post in this thread. Unless you have technical questions to ask about the product then I am going to ask that you go back and delete your posts. I think it is childish and immature of anyone over the age of 21 to be posting in this manner.

Professionalism aside, none of you have a clue about patents / patent pendings / dimensional copyrights / architectural infringements.
What would Audi say? The same thing Porsche would say to IPD....NOTHING.
http://www.ipdplenums.com/index.php?...id=16&Itemid=4
Go ahead and produce these on your own CNC . we challenge you

If you were the first to design , develop and manufacture a product , you are well within your right to apply for a patent to PROTECT your product and once your lawyer has been diligent with his homework then your patent will be granted. Why would a company such as us be so ludicrous to apply for a patent? Very simple....product after product year after year we see our hard work copied and whored out for penies on the dollar. No one respects anyones work anymore and what you end up with are products that are nothing but copies of originals. In the end that only hurts you the community not us the manufacturer.

INA has sold possibly over 3000 adapters plates for the 1.8T community and right fully so. We took the chances and put the time and effort into creating a market for the product so why shouldn't we be rewarded? Look I am just as passionate as the next guy about what we develop and bring to the market but I find the posts in this thread a bit insulting. Think for a minute and ask yourself this question:
"Did INA do there homework before they created this thread?"

If you think the answer to that question is NO then send us a PM explaining why.

The only company that we will be selling these through is 034 Motorsport and @ $16/plate we would say that is very affordable.
....$16!
AGAIN the $600 pricing is not finalized because of the harness cost. This has been posted 3-4 times allready.
The only manipulating factor right now is the harness cost. Once that cost has been finalized then the product will be available to the masses.

**MDJ** · 10-11-2011 08:16 AM

Titties.

**Guss** · 10-11-2011 08:18 AM

Like I said before I have interest just depends on my cost to benefit ratio. We all make our own decisions on what we put into our cars and how much we spend...

It's a free market and they are allowed to charge whatever they want. To rip him apart like some of you are is totally ridiculous and childish. If we don't buy any or many then maybe the price will be lowered.

anyway as was stated the price is not set yet so can we just sit back and see what the price will be before we even make stupid comments about it and the person selling this...

**NOTORIOUS VR** · 10-11-2011 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Issam@INA

This is petty...
Do you have questions relating to the product? If not please do what was asked:

Actually my first post in here was an indirect question that went pretty much unanswered.

But let's do some math.... 6 x coils at say even $25 each (too much, google search will come up with them as low as a hair under $22 again retail) + 6 x plates @ 034's retail price of $16/ea = $246, the only other thing you're offering is a harness... so $354 for the harness, that's a pretty hefty price tag IMO, and it deserves to be scrutinized considering the fact that I'm talking retail price of the coils and plates.

**Wizard-of-OD** · 10-11-2011 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR

6 x coils at say even $25 each (too much, google search will come up with them as low as a hair under $22 again retail) + 6 x plates @ 034's retail price of $16/ea = $246, the only other thing you're offering is a harness... so $354 for the harness, that's a pretty hefty price tag IMO, and it deserves to be scrutinized considering the fact that I'm talking retail price of the coils and plates.

The local dealer here sells 06F & 06H for approx for $27 CAD + HST.
034 is not offering anything as the plates they are selling are sourced through us. The harness price tag does deserved to be scrutinized but OEM connectors are not cheap. The 1.8T community has been paying $215 for a coil pack harness for over a year now. $300 for an S4 harness is not hefty IMHO but at the same time that pricing has not been finalised.

Hope that answers your questions.

**MTV2002** · 10-11-2011 08:56 AM

the problem is simple, too many high school kids can afford these cars. so now when high priced items come out people will always whine. seriously, who here bought their cars brand new in 2000? not a lot. these kids buy a 5k car and expect the parts and products to be the pricing of a 5k car, not a 40k car. grow up or go away. i would buy this to support someone that's willing to take a risk with this platform, and still supports and develops new products for this platform. im always up for something preventive as working on these cars are a pain and i would try anything that keeps me from replacing trivial parts. thumbs up to INA for supporting us who want to keep advancing this platform and not bringing down to honda standards.

**S4James** · 10-11-2011 09:00 AM

So these harnesses are going to clip into the ECU side of the ICM connectors and then tap in where we cut out the original harness?

**NOTORIOUS VR** · 10-11-2011 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by MTV2002

the problem is simple, too many high school kids can afford these cars. so now when high priced items come out people will always whine. seriously, who here bought their cars brand new in 2000? not a lot. these kids buy a 5k car and expect the parts and products to be the pricing of a 5k car, not a 40k car. grow up or go away. i would buy this to support someone that's willing to take a risk with this platform, and still supports and develops new products for this platform. im always up for something preventive as working on these cars are a pain and i would try anything that keeps me from replacing trivial parts. thumbs up to INA for supporting us who want to keep advancing this platform and not bringing down to honda standards.

These posts make me laugh... I have more into my car in modifications then the car is worth. It went from being completely stock to a full Tial 605 car, with suspension, brakes and other investments...

That said, I just wanted to let the others know who have a similar stand on this like I do that I was contacted by Issam and told by him he will get his lawyer involved because of slander...

**MTV2002** · 10-11-2011 09:07 AM

and i believe he is within his right...did you purchase this kit from him? dont think you did. so your bashing a product he is selling, that you yourself have not purchased. that counts as slander in my book. plus all these posts are evident. you have more into your car than its worth? thats great because the last i looked up my car is worth about 5-6k, that is not saying a lot. did you purchase this 605 kit from reputable dealer or did you try to piece it together on the cheap like 75% of the people here are trying to do with this kit. im sure you could source any product for any kit cheaper than what a vender sells. its called profit and they are allowed to make it, thats all im saying. if your not buying this kit, then stop the posts. its simple. create your own thread with all this nonsense in it. no one is forcing you to shell out any money for this kit. ive been around this platform a long time and i really dont like how down hill the audi community has gone lately.

**Capt. Obvious** · 10-11-2011 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by jibberjive

Why do people act like making any profit is a crime? It's the sole reason any company exists.

Profit is evil. Occupy Audizine.

**NOTORIOUS VR** · 10-11-2011 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by MTV2002

and i believe he is within his right...did you purchase this kit from him? dont think you did. so your bashing a product he is selling,

I'm posting my opinion, that is not slander. If it is my belief that his product is too expensive, I can openly say that. Not only that, I broke it down and explained why I believe it to be too expensive. So where is the slander?

you have more into your car than its worth? thats great because the last i looked up my car is worth about 5-6k, that is not saying a lot.

Yes I do, as do a lot of people that own a heavily modified S4. It's pretty easy to eclipse the book value on these cars, and even the market rate.

did you purchase this 605 kit from reputable dealer or did you try to piece it together on the cheap like 75% of the people here are trying to do with this kit.

Not that it's any of your business, but yes I did. You cannot "piece together" a Tial kit FYI.

im sure you could source any product for any kit cheaper than what a vender sells. its called profit and they are allowed to make it, thats all im saying. if your not buying this kit, then stop the posts. its simple. create your own thread with all this nonsense in it. no one is forcing you to shell out any money for this kit. ive been around this platform a long time and i really dont like how down hill the audi community has gone lately.

I agree with you on the Audi community comment. Especially because you're a good example of how it's going downhill. You've brought nothing to the table at all in this thread, and you think your shit don't stink. All you've done was post your opinions... the exact same thing I've done.

**Don Supreme** · 10-11-2011 09:19 AM

Issam has not committed a crime. The creators of the harness and adapters took risk. The risk in time and investment are driven by the profit potential.

This is the American way.

Additionally, this product is not life essential like food, water, or even fuel.

**CHAOSAUDI** · 10-11-2011 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR

These posts make me laugh... I have more into my car in modifications then the car is worth. It went from being completely stock to a full Tial 605 car, with suspension, brakes and other investments...

That said, I just wanted to let the others know who have a similar stand on this like I do that I was contacted by Issam and told by him he will get his lawyer involved because of slander...

Sweet! I hope he does it too because you do this shit all the time. You don't like his product then great but to call him a liar and all sorts of crap?GTFO...
I support him because he has always served me well. That serving me well warrants him my hard earned money and in return I tell audi owners what a great company INA is. Now do us all a favour .

**Wizard-of-OD** · 10-11-2011 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by S4James

So these harnesses are going to clip into the ECU side of the ICM connectors and then tap in where we cut out the original harness?

Something along those lines James yes. Do not worry , you will be taken care of :D

**NOTORIOUS VR** · 10-11-2011 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by CHAOSAUDI

Sweet! I hope he does it too because you do this shit all the time. You don't like his product then great but to call him a liar and all sorts of crap?GTFO...
I support him because he has always served me well. That serving me well warrants him my hard earned money and in return I tell audi owners what a great company INA is. Now do us all a favour .

You should really stay out of this... because you don't know fuck all.

**infinkc** · 10-11-2011 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by S4James

So these harnesses are going to clip into the ECU side of the ICM connectors and then tap in where we cut out the original harness?

These are the Harness adapters i made when i did mine(patent pending

), how the vendors do theirs is still up in the air. The other end is the difficult one to plug n play, but i know there are some special things to look forward to. ANd for the cost, those connectors below are $$, took me awhile to source on my own. So take it from me that bought all the parts from the dealer, this harness will run close to $300, my DIY price was close with the time i had invested in it. I would have loved a plug n play harness instead of soldering each pin seperate. I say it will be worth the wait for you guys.

**Wizard-of-OD** · 10-11-2011 09:42 AM

Thank you for being the test pilot with all of this btw.

**r4s4** · 10-11-2011 09:55 AM

Issam, don't let the few negative opinions out way the many thanks that you and the other vendors deserve by bringing new products to an aging platform. Thanks Randy

**beemercer** · 10-11-2011 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Capt. Obvious

Profit is evil. Occupy Audizine.

lol

**S4James** · 10-11-2011 10:35 AM

So on the plus side we get to eliminate 10 year old cracking coilpack harnesses, problematic and expensive ICMS, and potentially older and failing coilpacks.

and we get to move to a much less expensive, higher energy coil. Seems like a lot of birds being taken out with one stone. Hopefully as the harness components get finalized the price can come down a titch. We shall see.

**CC Lemon** · 10-11-2011 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Issam@INA

Gentlemen please I am going to ask again nicely. If you are not interested in the product then please do NOT post in this thread. Unless you have technical questions to ask about the product then I am going to ask that you go back and delete your posts. I think it is childish and immature of anyone over the age of 21 to be posting in this manner.

I think it's good for people to criticize pricing a little. Maybe it has gone a little too far in this thread, but I think it serves as a check for the companies selling to make sure that other's don't over pay for the product they receive. It's up to the community to watch out for each other. When someone reads this thread, they should take it upon themselves to research whether or not the claims against your product are accurate or whether your explanations are true. I know I, personally, wouldn't be able to produce a similar result to what I assume you guys will produce for the same price. The plates don't seem like they're exceptionally complex, though a clean harness definitely would be important to me and I'm not sure it would be easy to find someone that could provide the same result with a one-off as someone who intends to create a consistent, "mass produced" part to be sold. The pricing you've mentioned is definitely higher than I would have expected, so it really depends on seeing the end result and whether or not I feel like it is worthwhile at that point.

Next time, you might want to leave out pricing until you have a finalized price. At least, by that point, you wont be arguing over something that isn't decided and you'll have a more complete explanation of the decisions that went into deciding the price. Right now, you're just arguing about a price that might not even be correct and trying to justify costs of something that hasn't even been finalized.

**joe@vwvortex** · 10-11-2011 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by S4James

So on the plus side we get to eliminate 10 year old cracking coilpack harnesses, problematic and expensive ICMS, and potentially older and failing coilpacks.

and we get to move to a much less expensive, higher energy coil. Seems like a lot of birds being taken out with one stone. Hopefully as the harness components get finalized the price can come down a titch. We shall see.

This is why I like this idea. In hunting down a boost and misfire issue I recently bought two new icms and 6 new coilpacks. Even at a discount - I spent $300 on coil packs alone and $150 on two ICM's. I like the idea of never having to replace an ICM (or test it because of misfires) and paying half price for coils that will be ultimately easier to install - worth the money.

**S4 00 2.7** · 10-11-2011 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR

I'm posting my opinion, that is not slander. If it is my belief that his product is too expensive, I can openly say that. Not only that, I broke it down and explained why I believe it to be too expensive. So where is the slander?

Yes I do, as do a lot of people that own a heavily modified S4. It's pretty easy to eclipse the book value on these cars, and even the market rate.

Not that it's any of your business, but yes I did. You cannot "piece together" a Tial kit FYI.

I agree with you on the Audi community comment. Especially because you're a good example of how it's going downhill. You've brought nothing to the table at all in this thread, and you think your shit don't stink. All you've done was post your opinions... the exact same thing I've done.

As much as some people dont like it- Notorious is right, he is only sharing his opinion.

Since this is a forum, I think creative criticism actually helps vendors and the community. We shouldnt have fighting, but opinions are meant for forums like this.

I hope to see improvements for our platform for a long time.

**infinkc** · 10-11-2011 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by joe@vwvortex

This is why I like this idea. In hunting down a boost and misfire issue I recently bought two new icms and 6 new coilpacks. Even at a discount - I spent $300 on coil packs alone and $150 on two ICM's. I like the idea of never having to replace an ICM (or test it because of misfires) and paying half price for coils that will be ultimately easier to install - worth the money.

yea with the icms gone, if you have a misfire on cyl6, you know its cyl6.

**Capt. Obvious** · 10-11-2011 01:37 PM

There's a big difference between sharing an opinion and being an asshole; and that difference seems to be lost on a lot of people on the internet.

**Wizard-of-OD** · 10-11-2011 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by S4James

So on the plus side we get to eliminate 10 year old cracking coilpack harnesses, problematic and expensive ICMS, and potentially older and failing coilpacks.

and we get to move to a much less expensive, higher energy coil. Seems like a lot of birds being taken out with one stone. Hopefully as the harness components get finalized the price can come down a titch. We shall see.

:thumbsup:

**jibberjive** · 10-11-2011 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Capt. Obvious

Profit is evil. Occupy Audizine.

(bows head and raises a closed right fist.)

**M-Hood** · 10-11-2011 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Issam@INA

The local dealer here sells 06F & 06H for approx for $27 CAD + HST.
034 is not offering anything as the plates they are selling are sourced through us. The harness price tag does deserved to be scrutinized but OEM connectors are not cheap. The 1.8T community has been paying $215 for a coil pack harness for over a year now. $300 for an S4 harness is not hefty IMHO but at the same time that pricing has not been finalised.

Hope that answers your questions.

Dont you mean $185 for the 034 1.8t coil harness? Using that as a starting point a 6 cylinder harness should run around $277.