B6/B7 S4 Timing Chain FAQ / Information / Discussion Thread

[VinnysS4]

Im not sold on the RS4 guide. The standard redesigned guide is a better choice IMO. The old guide had a stress riser ( sharp corner) on reverse side where they always break. Gone on new guide. I prefer a solid guide to one with a liner. Sure, the aluminum backing may be stronger, but the liner will most likely fail as it becomes brittle due to heat and oil contamination....as do the other 2.

Have you ever seen a failed RS4 guide that people swap in? If so I encourage you to post up a link or photo. My gut says you wont find a single one.

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[Velox]

Didn't the late B7's came with the Audi's redesigned guides, and still ended up failing?

[VinnysS4]

Didn't the late B7's came with the Audi's redesigned guides, and still ended up failing?

YES. I've opened a few and all but one has had a broken guide. The one that didn't has already had the timing done 50k before

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[paul61]

Have you ever seen a failed RS4
guide that people swap in? If so I encourage you to post up a link or photo. My gut says you wont find a single one.


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How many failed guide liners have you ran across? I've seen a dozen or so, including the accessory gearbox drive.
Same construction, is it not?
I've used the RS4 guide many times, if specified by a customer ( it's cheaper too).
I prefer the new design version of the S4 guide.
I'm guessing you Havent seen the newer design?

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YES. I've opened a few and all but one has had a broken guide. The one that didn't has already had the timing done 50k before

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Post a pic.

[VinnysS4]

How many failed guide liners have you ran across? I've seen a dozen or so, including the accessory gearbox drive.
Same construction, is it not?
I've used the RS4 guide many times, if specified by a customer ( it's cheaper too).
I prefer the new design version of the S4 guide.
I'm guessing you Havent seen the newer design?

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Post a pic.

I've seen several of the other parts fail, but most commonly it's the lower left and the upper middle one.
Yes I've seen the newer design. I currently have a BHF on the bench with one in it(it's not broken, and is the only one I've opened that wasn't. It came out of jdsb6s4 car. Timing was sou. Around 150k and it currently has like 195k on it.

Im at work, I'll post some pics later

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[paul61]

Sounds good.
I've yet to see a broken new design. Entirely possible because there may not be enough hours on them yet since the re issue? But, I cant see where it would break since the that area is now filled in and reinforced?
I'll post some horror ( and hall of fame shite😉) pics in a bit.
Fyi.....i have only old design smashed primary guides to show. Have yet to see a broken new one in approx 20 or more chain services.

[paul61]

I lied😂
Found a new design in the parts pile. Still in one piece after ???? miles. Pic on way.

[paul61]

[paul61]

[VinnysS4]

Here are some pics from a late model B7 S4 Avant. Updated part.


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[paul61]

Can u snap a shop of the underside of the broken primary chain guide , please?
I'm curious which version?
Thx

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#Pic

[VinnysS4]

Can u snap a shop of the underside of the broken primary chain guide , please?
I'm curious which version?
Thx

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#Pic

I took that pic a year ago.. it's long gone.

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[EvoRam]

I know the Audi tech that did my timing said mine was the only one he'd seen that weren't broken/cracked at 110k. He's been an Audi tech for 20 years and has done countless b6/b7 s4 timing jobs on the side. I used both updated RS4 guides.

[VinnysS4]

My point is there has never been a documented failure of the 2 metal RS4 guides we use as replacements. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. And I strongly encourage anyone to find it if I am. Post up the data. Link, pics. While that plastic updated one may hold better than the previous plastic one, if there is a viable upgrade to the failure prone plastic varieties, why WOULDN'T you use it? I guess each to their own.

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[Velox]

in the s4 b6/b7 "catastrophic failure thread" there's a 2008 b7 with lower guide failure at only 40k miles or so. Would be weird of it didnt have the upgraded guide
Anyway If you just look at the history of timing chain issues on the RS4 section, it's pretty much a non issue, that's enough for me to go with the rs4 version.

[roboto_1337]

I think that the "updated guide" in the newer models was still the bakalite material that gets brittle though heat cycling. I remember seeing/reading about the differences in the guides from the B6 to B7 and I think that the B6 had an extra pin or oil hole in them... this may be the vin split revision that is causing the confusion. I don't think that B7 S4's ever had the RS4 version of the guides in them from the factory.

[Jus4tin]

Someone help. I currently own a b7 s4 but I was looking at this other one to fix up. So basically the engine is miss firing only on the passenger side and that side camshaft position sensor is throwing the code. The guy said that the chains were done 15k miles ago. Can a camshaft position sensor cause the misfire or is it automatically the tensioners. I would be surprised if it was the tensioners because the guy had a whole engine repair done on it not too long ago. Any thoughts help thanks

[Kambesama]

Someone help. I currently own a b7 s4 but I was looking at this other one to fix up. So basically the engine is miss firing only on the passenger side and that side camshaft position sensor is throwing the code. The guy said that the chains were done 15k miles ago. Can a camshaft position sensor cause the misfire or is it automatically the tensioners. I would be surprised if it was the tensioners because the guy had a whole engine repair done on it not too long ago. Any thoughts help thanks

It sounds like an issue with the sprocket or incorrect timing on that side. I would perform a compression check and compare the numbers. If one entire bank is lower than the other (affected bank vs good running bank) I would suspect issue with timing seeing as how you also have a code for it. Do you have any information on if he replaced the camshaft sprockets as well or did he use the original one?

[Jus4tin]

I, unfortunately, do not I would be kinda surprised if he did something wrong cause he spent a lot of money on it. If I start it up and there is no rattle does that give you an idea of whats going on? Also, can you re-time the engine with the engine inside the car? Any ideas help thanks

[VinnysS4]

I, unfortunately, do not I would be kinda surprised if he did something wrong cause he spent a lot of money on it. If I start it up and there is no rattle does that give you an idea of whats going on? Also, can you re-time the engine with the engine inside the car? Any ideas help thanks

A lot of people dont change the camshaft adjusters when doing the timing job. They are spendy at $700ea for OEM and $750for a repair kit for both My money would be on them

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[Kambesama]

I, unfortunately, do not I would be kinda surprised if he did something wrong cause he spent a lot of money on it. If I start it up and there is no rattle does that give you an idea of whats going on? Also, can you re-time the engine with the engine inside the car? Any ideas help thanks

It is possible we have actually even done the timing chain service with the engine still installed (transmission removed only). It wasn't I that did it as I have fat hands but it is possible.
Rattle noise if any is usually an indication that the timing guide has broken or depending on where it is coming from it could be the intake manifold. I went after my timing chain due to that, thinking the guide had broken but it was the manifold causing the rattle.
I'm leaning on the timing sprocket being the cause just like Vinny said. It's locking pin is probably an oval due to wear and is moving around causing the timing to change when it shouldn't.

[roboto_1337]

I have a pair of sprockets in good shape from when I replaced with JHM... PM me if interested


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[Jus4tin]

It is possible we have actually even done the timing chain service with the engine still installed (transmission removed only). It wasn't I that did it as I have fat hands but it is possible.
Rattle noise if any is usually an indication that the timing guide has broken or depending on where it is coming from it could be the intake manifold. I went after my timing chain due to that, thinking the guide had broken but it was the manifold causing the rattle.
I'm leaning on the timing sprocket being the cause just like Vinny said. It's locking pin is probably an oval due to wear and is moving around causing the timing to change when it shouldn't.

Would I still have to remove the engine/transmission for the sprockets or could those be done with it still in the car?


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[VinnysS4]

Would I still have to remove the engine/transmission for the sprockets or could those be done with it still in the car?


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They are a bitch to do but can be done without removing the engine from the car

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[Kambesama]

They are a bitch to do but can be done without removing the engine from the car

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Is it recommended, however? I say no. Are there fewer steps involved? yeah, a lot less stuff to remove but at the cost of comfort and space. If this is your first timing chain service I would take the whole thing down that way its easier to do. Plus there are plenty of other things you can do easily once the engine is removed IMO.

[raspeitia]

I'm having an issue cross referencing some of the new guide part numbers. On GAP vs ECS, I see different part numbers for the 4.2 that seem to look like they fit.

I came over from the C6 forum link, btw. I have the 2005 4.2 BNK engine.

These numbers look to also come from a 2008 RS4 that seem to fit my engine.
079-109-469-AM : Lower guide LEFT was 079109469AA
079-109-469-AL : Lower guide MIDDLE was 079109469AD

The price difference is huge. $14 new numbers vs $53 for the old numbers. I pulled up the pictures on ECS and they seem to be metal with a liner vs bakelite versions.

I wanted to see if someone has used these or can confirm.

[raspeitia]

BTW, I looked up the 2 numbers in the updated 2017 guide linked a few posts back and it comes up in GAP under a A4 3.2 not a 4.2. This is also part of my confusion.

Does anyone have the new 4.2, Lower Middle and Lower Left metal RS4 upgraded part numbers?

[raspeitia]

BTW, I looked up the 2 numbers in the updated 2017 guide linked a few posts back and it comes up in GAP under a A4 3.2 not a 4.2. This is also part of my confusion.

Does anyone have the new 4.2, Lower Middle and Lower Left metal RS4 upgraded part numbers?

I figured out the issue. Those GAP numbers were for the 4.2 FSI engine of the same year. The ones listed on here are good for the BNK engine. Thanks to you all for the great info!

[CONative]

I began compiling parts for doing the timing work on my B7. Thanks to this forum I'm going to save some coin by piecing together what I actually need, including modifying those ridiculously priced cam chain tensioners.

I've been able to avoid coming here to ask questions until now, and it's probably my paranoia more than anything. The timing cover sealant (Audi D176501A1, Loctite 5970)...can I use any gasket maker, like the Permatex black RTV I was planning to use for the valve covers? Or is this 5970 something special needed for the timing and/or oil pan due to heat displacement? It was $15 and change the other day and now it's $27.

[S4Bennett]

Permatex Ultra Black. It’s a little easier than Ultra Grey to remove when you need to service. I used to use Hondabond HT for everything but I use a dab, put it away, and it always cures the entire tube no matter how diligent you are. I became tired of wasting $11 every time I had to check valve lash or change a valve cover gasket.

[cgfen]

Hi.
Looking at this thread.
Hoping to come home with a B7 S4 Avant this weekend.
Seems like a nice car, but I'm not afraid of a car with "mechanical needs".

be well

Craig

[Rol-co]

Anyone here ever just pull the tranny, replaced the problem guides for new or rs version and put the tranny back in?

Some say chains are never the problem
Cam adjusters are but the will give no rattle? Plus you can do that from above if needed.

Bij changing the guides the danger is gone?

[Rol-co]

It is possible we have actually even done the timing chain service with the engine still installed (transmission removed only). It wasn't I that did it as I have fat hands but it is possible.
Rattle noise if any is usually an indication that the timing guide has broken or depending on where it is coming from it could be the intake manifold. I went after my timing chain due to that, thinking the guide had broken but it was the manifold causing the rattle.
I'm leaning on the timing sprocket being the cause just like Vinny said. It's locking pin is probably an oval due to wear and is moving around causing the timing to change when it shouldn't.

Did you changed all components or tensioners and guides only?

Someone had a leaking solenoid ever?

[romadhooligan]

Pulling the motor from my B6 this weekend to get it prepped for the timing chain service. I was watching the video on JHM's youtube of their tech going through the procedure and I was wondering if anyone knows where I can grab a set of the dowel pins that he uses to lock the tensioners. They obviously come preinstalled with the new tensioners, but is there anywhere that just sells them on their own? Or does anyone that has done the service have a set that they'd like to sell/rent? Thanks in advance for any help!

[VinnysS4]

Pulling the motor from my B6 this weekend to get it prepped for the timing chain service. I was watching the video on JHM's youtube of their tech going through the procedure and I was wondering if anyone knows where I can grab a set of the dowel pins that he uses to lock the tensioners. They obviously come preinstalled with the new tensioners, but is there anywhere that just sells them on their own? Or does anyone that has done the service have a set that they'd like to sell/rent? Thanks in advance for any help!

I'm sure someone sells them. I'd just grab some drill bits that fit the holes. Maybe 3/32 or 1/8"?
I always save my old tensioner pins from previous jobs.

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[Rol-co]

Or use a rivet

[romadhooligan]

yeah looking back on it, it seems pretty obvious to save old tensioner pins haha. But also, thank you for pointing out drill bits. I have access to an entire wood working shop and probably hundreds of bits and I didn't even think of them. Just ordered everything from JHM for the timing service as well as some other goodies, hope to get the motor pulled this weekend and all the maintenance done over the next week or so. Really need this car ready for spring. My allroad is fun, but its not a V8.

Also side note, has anyone purchased the engine removal video from Total Technik? I'm much better at learning from video than I am from still images. I already printed out and laminated the PDF of the engine removal DIY by Joey which is an incredible resource, just wondering if anyone has any experience with the video walkthrough as well.

[Rol-co]

Maybe this wil help? Its free

[romadhooligan]

Maybe this wil help? Its free

yeah thats basically perfect, thanks!

[Kling]

Hi,

I'm doing a chain job and intake valve changes after a total guide failure on my BBK. Now I'm standing here deep in reassemble wondering if I have misplaced the diamond coated washers or if mine didn't have them (I have actuator valve housings ending with an H).

Hoping that someone knows if all BBK has the washers (079 105 193).

My S4 is from 2004.

/Jimmy