B6/B7 S4 Timing Chain FAQ / Information / Discussion Thread

[paul61]

[VinnysS4]

Here are some pics from a late model B7 S4 Avant. Updated part.


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[paul61]

Can u snap a shop of the underside of the broken primary chain guide , please?
I'm curious which version?
Thx

- - - Updated - - -

#Pic

[VinnysS4]

Can u snap a shop of the underside of the broken primary chain guide , please?
I'm curious which version?
Thx

- - - Updated - - -

#Pic

I took that pic a year ago.. it's long gone.

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[EvoRam]

I know the Audi tech that did my timing said mine was the only one he'd seen that weren't broken/cracked at 110k. He's been an Audi tech for 20 years and has done countless b6/b7 s4 timing jobs on the side. I used both updated RS4 guides.

[VinnysS4]

My point is there has never been a documented failure of the 2 metal RS4 guides we use as replacements. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. And I strongly encourage anyone to find it if I am. Post up the data. Link, pics. While that plastic updated one may hold better than the previous plastic one, if there is a viable upgrade to the failure prone plastic varieties, why WOULDN'T you use it? I guess each to their own.

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[Velox]

in the s4 b6/b7 "catastrophic failure thread" there's a 2008 b7 with lower guide failure at only 40k miles or so. Would be weird of it didnt have the upgraded guide
Anyway If you just look at the history of timing chain issues on the RS4 section, it's pretty much a non issue, that's enough for me to go with the rs4 version.

[roboto_1337]

I think that the "updated guide" in the newer models was still the bakalite material that gets brittle though heat cycling. I remember seeing/reading about the differences in the guides from the B6 to B7 and I think that the B6 had an extra pin or oil hole in them... this may be the vin split revision that is causing the confusion. I don't think that B7 S4's ever had the RS4 version of the guides in them from the factory.

[Jus4tin]

Someone help. I currently own a b7 s4 but I was looking at this other one to fix up. So basically the engine is miss firing only on the passenger side and that side camshaft position sensor is throwing the code. The guy said that the chains were done 15k miles ago. Can a camshaft position sensor cause the misfire or is it automatically the tensioners. I would be surprised if it was the tensioners because the guy had a whole engine repair done on it not too long ago. Any thoughts help thanks

[Kambesama]

Someone help. I currently own a b7 s4 but I was looking at this other one to fix up. So basically the engine is miss firing only on the passenger side and that side camshaft position sensor is throwing the code. The guy said that the chains were done 15k miles ago. Can a camshaft position sensor cause the misfire or is it automatically the tensioners. I would be surprised if it was the tensioners because the guy had a whole engine repair done on it not too long ago. Any thoughts help thanks

It sounds like an issue with the sprocket or incorrect timing on that side. I would perform a compression check and compare the numbers. If one entire bank is lower than the other (affected bank vs good running bank) I would suspect issue with timing seeing as how you also have a code for it. Do you have any information on if he replaced the camshaft sprockets as well or did he use the original one?

[Jus4tin]

I, unfortunately, do not I would be kinda surprised if he did something wrong cause he spent a lot of money on it. If I start it up and there is no rattle does that give you an idea of whats going on? Also, can you re-time the engine with the engine inside the car? Any ideas help thanks

[VinnysS4]

I, unfortunately, do not I would be kinda surprised if he did something wrong cause he spent a lot of money on it. If I start it up and there is no rattle does that give you an idea of whats going on? Also, can you re-time the engine with the engine inside the car? Any ideas help thanks

A lot of people dont change the camshaft adjusters when doing the timing job. They are spendy at $700ea for OEM and $750for a repair kit for both My money would be on them

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[Kambesama]

I, unfortunately, do not I would be kinda surprised if he did something wrong cause he spent a lot of money on it. If I start it up and there is no rattle does that give you an idea of whats going on? Also, can you re-time the engine with the engine inside the car? Any ideas help thanks

It is possible we have actually even done the timing chain service with the engine still installed (transmission removed only). It wasn't I that did it as I have fat hands but it is possible.
Rattle noise if any is usually an indication that the timing guide has broken or depending on where it is coming from it could be the intake manifold. I went after my timing chain due to that, thinking the guide had broken but it was the manifold causing the rattle.
I'm leaning on the timing sprocket being the cause just like Vinny said. It's locking pin is probably an oval due to wear and is moving around causing the timing to change when it shouldn't.

[Jus4tin]

It is possible we have actually even done the timing chain service with the engine still installed (transmission removed only). It wasn't I that did it as I have fat hands but it is possible.
Rattle noise if any is usually an indication that the timing guide has broken or depending on where it is coming from it could be the intake manifold. I went after my timing chain due to that, thinking the guide had broken but it was the manifold causing the rattle.
I'm leaning on the timing sprocket being the cause just like Vinny said. It's locking pin is probably an oval due to wear and is moving around causing the timing to change when it shouldn't.

Would I still have to remove the engine/transmission for the sprockets or could those be done with it still in the car?


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[Rol-co]

It is possible we have actually even done the timing chain service with the engine still installed (transmission removed only). It wasn't I that did it as I have fat hands but it is possible.
Rattle noise if any is usually an indication that the timing guide has broken or depending on where it is coming from it could be the intake manifold. I went after my timing chain due to that, thinking the guide had broken but it was the manifold causing the rattle.
I'm leaning on the timing sprocket being the cause just like Vinny said. It's locking pin is probably an oval due to wear and is moving around causing the timing to change when it shouldn't.

Did you changed all components or tensioners and guides only?

Someone had a leaking solenoid ever?

[roboto_1337]

I have a pair of sprockets in good shape from when I replaced with JHM... PM me if interested


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[raspeitia]

I'm having an issue cross referencing some of the new guide part numbers. On GAP vs ECS, I see different part numbers for the 4.2 that seem to look like they fit.

I came over from the C6 forum link, btw. I have the 2005 4.2 BNK engine.

These numbers look to also come from a 2008 RS4 that seem to fit my engine.
079-109-469-AM : Lower guide LEFT was 079109469AA
079-109-469-AL : Lower guide MIDDLE was 079109469AD

The price difference is huge. $14 new numbers vs $53 for the old numbers. I pulled up the pictures on ECS and they seem to be metal with a liner vs bakelite versions.

I wanted to see if someone has used these or can confirm.

[raspeitia]

BTW, I looked up the 2 numbers in the updated 2017 guide linked a few posts back and it comes up in GAP under a A4 3.2 not a 4.2. This is also part of my confusion.

Does anyone have the new 4.2, Lower Middle and Lower Left metal RS4 upgraded part numbers?

[raspeitia]

BTW, I looked up the 2 numbers in the updated 2017 guide linked a few posts back and it comes up in GAP under a A4 3.2 not a 4.2. This is also part of my confusion.

Does anyone have the new 4.2, Lower Middle and Lower Left metal RS4 upgraded part numbers?

I figured out the issue. Those GAP numbers were for the 4.2 FSI engine of the same year. The ones listed on here are good for the BNK engine. Thanks to you all for the great info!

[CONative]

I began compiling parts for doing the timing work on my B7. Thanks to this forum I'm going to save some coin by piecing together what I actually need, including modifying those ridiculously priced cam chain tensioners.

I've been able to avoid coming here to ask questions until now, and it's probably my paranoia more than anything. The timing cover sealant (Audi D176501A1, Loctite 5970)...can I use any gasket maker, like the Permatex black RTV I was planning to use for the valve covers? Or is this 5970 something special needed for the timing and/or oil pan due to heat displacement? It was $15 and change the other day and now it's $27.

[S4Bennett]

Permatex Ultra Black. It’s a little easier than Ultra Grey to remove when you need to service. I used to use Hondabond HT for everything but I use a dab, put it away, and it always cures the entire tube no matter how diligent you are. I became tired of wasting $11 every time I had to check valve lash or change a valve cover gasket.

[cgfen]

Hi.
Looking at this thread.
Hoping to come home with a B7 S4 Avant this weekend.
Seems like a nice car, but I'm not afraid of a car with "mechanical needs".

be well

Craig

[Rol-co]

Anyone here ever just pull the tranny, replaced the problem guides for new or rs version and put the tranny back in?

Some say chains are never the problem
Cam adjusters are but the will give no rattle? Plus you can do that from above if needed.

Bij changing the guides the danger is gone?

[romadhooligan]

Pulling the motor from my B6 this weekend to get it prepped for the timing chain service. I was watching the video on JHM's youtube of their tech going through the procedure and I was wondering if anyone knows where I can grab a set of the dowel pins that he uses to lock the tensioners. They obviously come preinstalled with the new tensioners, but is there anywhere that just sells them on their own? Or does anyone that has done the service have a set that they'd like to sell/rent? Thanks in advance for any help!

[VinnysS4]

Pulling the motor from my B6 this weekend to get it prepped for the timing chain service. I was watching the video on JHM's youtube of their tech going through the procedure and I was wondering if anyone knows where I can grab a set of the dowel pins that he uses to lock the tensioners. They obviously come preinstalled with the new tensioners, but is there anywhere that just sells them on their own? Or does anyone that has done the service have a set that they'd like to sell/rent? Thanks in advance for any help!

I'm sure someone sells them. I'd just grab some drill bits that fit the holes. Maybe 3/32 or 1/8"?
I always save my old tensioner pins from previous jobs.

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[romadhooligan]

yeah looking back on it, it seems pretty obvious to save old tensioner pins haha. But also, thank you for pointing out drill bits. I have access to an entire wood working shop and probably hundreds of bits and I didn't even think of them. Just ordered everything from JHM for the timing service as well as some other goodies, hope to get the motor pulled this weekend and all the maintenance done over the next week or so. Really need this car ready for spring. My allroad is fun, but its not a V8.

Also side note, has anyone purchased the engine removal video from Total Technik? I'm much better at learning from video than I am from still images. I already printed out and laminated the PDF of the engine removal DIY by Joey which is an incredible resource, just wondering if anyone has any experience with the video walkthrough as well.

[Rol-co]

Or use a rivet

[Rol-co]

Maybe this wil help? Its free

[romadhooligan]

Maybe this wil help? Its free

yeah thats basically perfect, thanks!

[cgfen]

Maybe this wil help? Its free

good link.
thanks

I have a lift and a lift table so, that should make life a bit easier.
wasn't looking forward to removing cats from exhaust manifold while still in the car.

[All_Black_A4]

good link.
thanks

wasn't looking forward to removing cats from exhaust manifold while still in the car.

Did that job myself this weekend. Not fun. Of course I only had axle stands to use and not a lift. Removing the axle heat shields gives you more room to work with. If I had to do it again I’d also remove the front axles. Only broke one stud and thankfully didn’t round off any of the nuts.

[cgfen]

Did that job myself this weekend. Not fun. Of course I only had axle stands to use and not a lift. Removing the axle heat shields gives you more room to work with. If I had to do it again I’d also remove the front axles. Only broke one stud and thankfully didn’t round off any of the nuts.

nice work on a nasty job

[Kling]

Hi,

I'm doing a chain job and intake valve changes after a total guide failure on my BBK. Now I'm standing here deep in reassemble wondering if I have misplaced the diamond coated washers or if mine didn't have them (I have actuator valve housings ending with an H).

Hoping that someone knows if all BBK has the washers (079 105 193).

My S4 is from 2004.

/Jimmy

[Rol-co]

Hi,

I'm doing a chain job and intake valve changes after a total guide failure on my BBK. Now I'm standing here deep in reassemble wondering if I have misplaced the diamond coated washers or if mine didn't have them (I have actuator valve housings ending with an H).

Hoping that someone knows if all BBK has the washers (079 105 193).

My S4 is from 2004.

/Jimmy

He should have them, behind the solenoid housing, these are very thin washers.

https://audi.7zap.com/en/rdw/audi+a4...109-109050/#10

No10

[VinnysS4]

Hi,

I'm doing a chain job and intake valve changes after a total guide failure on my BBK. Now I'm standing here deep in reassemble wondering if I have misplaced the diamond coated washers or if mine didn't have them (I have actuator valve housings ending with an H).

Hoping that someone knows if all BBK has the washers (079 105 193).

My S4 is from 2004.

/Jimmy

They are probably there. They can be hard to see

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[Kling]

They are probably there. They can be hard to see

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Big thanks. They where on the camshafts the entire time. Insanely thin and almost impossible to see =)

[VinnysS4]

Big thanks. They where on the camshafts the entire time. Insanely thin and almost impossible to see =)

Nice. They can be hard to see for sure! Glad you found them.

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[thefleshrocket]

This is probably a dumb question that's already been answered, but is there any way to tell if this service has been performed? I'm tentatively shopping for a B7 S4 and there are a couple for sale where the seller says something like "the previous owner told me it's been done" or "my now-dead brother-in-law had the paperwork, but it's lost". Should I just avoid claimed-serviced-but-undocumented cars entirely, or can I easily verify somehow?

[igjoe1989]

How is everyone installing the clutch slave cylinder onto the transmission during engine and trans install? Are you removing the hardline, attaching the slave to the trans, and then bleeding later? Or are you leaving it all together and somehow managing to get the slave bolt lined up?

[Rol-co]

Anybody had some tensioner issues after a chain job? Have a undefined sound like a tensioner or chain slap. Engine out again but nothing found yet.
Rotating by hand is quiet and nice.

Edit:
Running nice at all cilinders and no codes.