B6/B7 S4 Timing Chain FAQ / Information / Discussion Thread

**2004B6S4** · 02-11-2019 02:59 AM

There was a revision made to some of the guides on the B7, as they have different part #'s in the ETKA parts guide. I believe what happened was that JHM mentioned this revision in their marketing materials for their timing chain kit and, whether it was intentional or not, misled people into believing that this revision actually made a difference in the chances of these parts breaking, which then got parroted over and over on these forums. Perhaps this helped them sell more of the kits to B6 owners who felt that their cars were especially vulnerable to the issue... When that was going around a lot on here, the B7's were still new enough that not very many of them had enough miles to have these issues happen yet

**1975audi** · 02-11-2019 05:16 AM

What are the parts numbers for the rs4 upgraded guides?
I have a 2004 vin # WAUPL68E14A037564
Europa told me that my car needs parts # 079109469ac
Has this part been revised or is it still made out of plastic.

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**Terry.Reese** · 02-11-2019 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by 1975audi

What are the parts numbers for the rs4 upgraded guides?
I have a 2004 vin # WAUPL68E14A037564
Europa told me that my car needs parts # 079109469ac
Has this part been revised or is it still made out of plastic.

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1 Engine Timing Chain Guide 059109469F RS4 upgraded replaces 079109469AA

1 Engine Timing Chain Guide VAG-059109469E RS4 upgraded replaces 079109469AC(vin low) or 079109469AD(vin high)depending on year split
VIN below 200000 uses 079109469AC if they do not want to have the upgrade (some say the RS4 upgrade doesnt work) others say it does.)
2000001 matches exactly to the stock 079109469AD

Mine has the upgraded one and I have an 04 as well. only difference is the little oil nipple on the lower VIN that the newer VIN doesn't have. that oil hole goes no where and seems to be just a reservoir to hold excess oil in it.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...ATED-July-2017

**1975audi** · 02-11-2019 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Terry.Reese

1 Engine Timing Chain Guide059109469F RS4 upgraded replaces 079109469AA

1 Engine Timing Chain Guide VAG-059109469E RS4 upgraded replaces 079109469AC(vin low) or 079109469AD(vin high)depending on year split
VIN below 200000 uses 079109469AC if they do not want to have the upgrade (some say the RS4 upgrade doesnt work) others say it does.)
2000001 matches exactly to the stock 079109469AD

Mine has the upgraded one and I have an 04 as well. only difference is the little oil nipple on the lower VIN that the newer VIN doesn't have. that oil hole goes no where and seems to be just a reservoir to hold excess oil in it.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...ATED-July-2017

Thank you very much

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**1975audi** · 02-13-2019 04:10 PM

How about the rear main seal, is this a item that should be changed due to the motor been out.
Did most of you change it?

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**VinnysS4** · 02-13-2019 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by 1975audi

How about the rear main seal, is this a item that should be changed due to the motor been out.
Did most of you change it?

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Absolutely!

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**1975audi** · 02-25-2019 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by VinnysS4

Absolutely!

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Is this the correct part #
012311113B

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**DarrenOman** · 02-25-2019 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by 1975audi

Is this the correct part #
012311113B

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I have
079103051F for my b6 crankshaft rear oil seal

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**1975audi** · 02-25-2019 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by DarrenOman

I have
079103051F for my b6 crankshaft rear oil seal

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Ok yes my part # is for the Transmission Main Shaft Seal

Are both advised to replace?

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**Terry.Reese** · 02-22-2019 08:20 AM

if you grab a part number I can toss it up int he first post as well.

**Hayesman** · 02-22-2019 04:06 PM

Anyone care to interpret this? Just got a VCDS and am trying to figure out my timing...I guess -8 and -3 aren’t terrible?
IMG_0125.JPG IMG_0126.JPG

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**Hollywood33** · 08-27-2019 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Hayesman

Anyone care to interpret this? Just got a VCDS and am trying to figure out my timing...I guess -8 and -3 aren’t terrible?
IMG_0125.JPG IMG_0126.JPG

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Can anyone answer this question? I am interested to hear how numbers like these do or do not speak to the health of the timing chain system.

If they do, what are ideal numbers? What are shit numbers?

Thanks!

**Mentosman42** · 08-28-2019 06:25 AM

I believe I was at -6 and -8, when I took the timing apart the cam adjusters were actually in good shape(very minimal wear on the hole for the locking pin) but the main guide that always breaks was in fact broken. Half of the guide had fallen down and wedged itself into a position that it was actually putting a good amount of tension on the chain. That being said, if it moved it would have been ground up into shrapnel that would have then been distributed around the engine. I found a good amount of plastic in the oil pump screen.

This was on an 08 with 125k miles.

**VinnysS4** · 08-28-2019 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Mentosman42

I believe I was at -6 and -8, when I took the timing apart the cam adjusters were actually in good shape(very minimal wear on the hole for the locking pin) but the main guide that always breaks was in fact broken. Half of the guide had fallen down and wedged itself into a position that it was actually putting a good amount of tension on the chain. That being said, if it moved it would have been ground up into shrapnel that would have then been distributed around the engine. I found a good amount of plastic in the oil pump screen.

This was on an 08 with 125k miles.

I've taken 2 apart with huge chunks missing and one wedge behind the chain. Good stuff!

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**DarrenOman** · 02-25-2019 07:17 AM

Excellent question. I want even considering my tranny main seal.

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**VinnysS4** · 03-03-2019 08:50 AM

Here is a fine example of a 50k mile b6 S4 with a cracked timing chain guide.
Always replace this one with the upgraded RS4 guide.

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**markham** · 03-04-2019 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by VinnysS4

Here is a fine example of a 50k mile b6 S4 with a cracked timing chain guide.
Always replace this one with the upgraded RS4 guide.

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Vinny, my B6 just hit 55,000 Miles today. In your opinion is it better to wait for clear signs of timing guides breaking or just preemptively get them done? I get a slight rattle on cold starts some times but not always. Car drives fine otherwise and has good power. How often do things go from driving perfectly fine to catastrophic in one day? Will be easy to see signs timing needs to be done? Was this one showing signs or just decided to do it? Sorry in advance if you have answered this previously.

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**VinnysS4** · 03-04-2019 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by markham

Vinny, my B6 just hit 55,000 Miles today. In your opinion is it better to wait for clear signs of timing guides breaking or just preemptively get them done? I get a slight rattle on cold starts some times but not always. Car drives fine otherwise and has good power. How often do things go from driving perfectly fine to catastrophic in one day? Will be easy to see signs timing needs to be done? Was this one showing signs or just decided to do it? Sorry in advance if you have answered this previously.

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This S4 didn't show any signs of timing failure. No cold start rattle, nothing. I'm sure the engine could have gone to 100k before needing the service done, that being said, personally I would do it around 75k. My personal s4 had disintegrated guides at 112k.
Enjoy it while it lasts :)

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**markham** · 03-06-2019 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by VinnysS4

This S4 didn't show any signs of timing failure. No cold start rattle, nothing. I'm sure the engine could have gone to 100k before needing the service done, that being said, personally I would do it around 75k. My personal s4 had disintegrated guides at 112k.
Enjoy it while it lasts :)

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Thanks very helpful. As I only put on around 3-4k miles per year, think I’ll hold off for a bit yet

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**VinnysS4** · 03-06-2019 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by markham

Thanks very helpful. As I only put on around 3-4k miles per year, think I’ll hold off for a bit yet

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Pay attention to warm start and listen for timing chain rattle. Generally it's when you get timing chain rattle on a warm start that you need to start worrying about it. And remember, a lot of the time I just actually oil check valves that have gone bad and not timing chain guide

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**EvoRam** · 08-29-2019 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by VinnysS4

This S4 didn't show any signs of timing failure. No cold start rattle, nothing. I'm sure the engine could have gone to 100k before needing the service done, that being said, personally I would do it around 75k. My personal s4 had disintegrated guides at 112k.
Enjoy it while it lasts :)

I got lucky with mine. No cracks on any of my stock guides when I had mine done at around 110k.

**paul61** · 09-11-2019 09:33 AM

Im not sold on the RS4 guide. The standard redesigned guide is a better choice IMO. The old guide had a stress riser ( sharp corner) on reverse side where they always break. Gone on new guide. I prefer a solid guide to one with a liner. Sure, the aluminum backing may be stronger, but the liner will most likely fail as it becomes brittle due to heat and oil contamination....as do the other 2.

**VinnysS4** · 09-11-2019 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by paul61

Im not sold on the RS4 guide. The standard redesigned guide is a better choice IMO. The old guide had a stress riser ( sharp corner) on reverse side where they always break. Gone on new guide. I prefer a solid guide to one with a liner. Sure, the aluminum backing may be stronger, but the liner will most likely fail as it becomes brittle due to heat and oil contamination....as do the other 2.

Have you ever seen a failed RS4 guide that people swap in? If so I encourage you to post up a link or photo. My gut says you wont find a single one.

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**1975audi** · 03-04-2019 01:13 PM

I'm in the same boat but I get a 2-3 second rattle on cold starts.

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**darrenho** · 03-06-2019 11:45 AM

Not sure if this was asked/answered before: Any 3rd party extended warranty covers the timing chain guides replacement job?

**jago** · 08-27-2019 10:13 AM

hi all
apologies in advance as the info's all over the place here, but can someone add to or summarize the latest on "while you're in there" items?
i am possibly buying a 2008 B7 S4 100k AT very shortly and i may arrange preventative timing chain work with seller,
and want to bundle all other critical items in the job. i'm not the most mechanically oriented so need some guidance. ty.

RS4 metal chain guides only, correct?
cooling system components?
cam adjusters
oil 'valley' gaskets
valve cover gaskets
rear main seal

**Mentosman42** · 08-28-2019 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by jago

hi all
apologies in advance as the info's all over the place here, but can someone add to or summarize the latest on "while you're in there" items?
i am possibly buying a 2008 B7 S4 100k AT very shortly and i may arrange preventative timing chain work with seller,
and want to bundle all other critical items in the job. i'm not the most mechanically oriented so need some guidance. ty.

RS4 metal chain guides only, correct?
cooling system components?
cam adjusters
oil 'valley' gaskets
valve cover gaskets
rear main seal

Check out JH Motorsports timing service kits, they have a few different packages ranging from essentials to a full kit. The RS4 guide is the replacement for the guide that broke in my previous post, the rest of the guides seem to hold up ok but the kit comes with all new OEM guides along with the RS4 guide. As far as the cam adjusters, the actual adjuster portion generally doesn't have problems, it is the sprocket on the back side that the bore for the locking pin ovals out. JHM also has a CnC machined replacement sprocket that is made from a harder steel to solve the ovaling out problem.

That list looks like the essentials of what you should do when doing a timing service, there is a lot you can get into(compression test/leakdown test the engine and check cylinder bores if numbers are low, ect) when pulling the engine apart but I would also look at replacing the oil check valves in the oil valley.

While you have the intake manifold off it is worth checking if the diverter flap is working, just did my timing service and pulled my intake apart to clean some of the oil out and found that my intake flap was seized. They sell rebuild kits but you can also get it apart and clean the shaft/bore and that seems to take care of the problem.

**jago** · 08-28-2019 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mentosman42

Check out JH Motorsports timing service kits, they have a few different packages ranging from essentials to a full kit. The RS4 guide is the replacement for the guide that broke in my previous post, the rest of the guides seem to hold up ok but the kit comes with all new OEM guides along with the RS4 guide. As far as the cam adjusters, the actual adjuster portion generally doesn't have problems, it is the sprocket on the back side that the bore for the locking pin ovals out. JHM also has a CnC machined replacement sprocket that is made from a harder steel to solve the ovaling out problem.

That list looks like the essentials of what you should do when doing a timing service, there is a lot you can get into(compression test/leakdown test the engine and check cylinder bores if numbers are low, ect) when pulling the engine apart but I would also look at replacing the oil check valves in the oil valley.

While you have the intake manifold off it is worth checking if the diverter flap is working, just did my timing service and pulled my intake apart to clean some of the oil out and found that my intake flap was seized. They sell rebuild kits but you can also get it apart and clean the shaft/bore and that seems to take care of the problem.

cool thank you

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**Velox** · 08-29-2019 03:49 PM

I see on the pics that the lower and upper guides have been removed with the chains still on.
Does this mean you can actually replace those guides without removing the chains?

**VinnysS4** · 08-29-2019 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Velox

I see on the pics that the lower and upper guides have been removed with the chains still on.
Does this mean you can actually replace those guides without removing the chains?

Yup! You can replace both the trouble guides without taking the chains off. You can also do the tensioners on the backside of the heads without removing the chains.

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**Velox** · 08-29-2019 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by VinnysS4

Yup! You can replace both the trouble guides without taking the chains off. You can also do the tensioners on the backside of the heads without removing the chains.

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Now I'm seriously thinking about going that route even though I bought All tensioners/guides/chains/timing tools.

The car has 88K miles, occasional cold startup rattle, cam/timing related vag measuring blocks well within spec.

I really don't want to install my new headers, exhaust, manifold and not be able to enjoy the new setup because I messed something up.

Been reading about the timing service since I got the car and know pretty much all steps by memory, plus I have the service manual. but lately I've been reading about problems after timing service from people who probably have more wrench experience than me.

So maybe I'll just replace the 2 problematic guides and drive the new setup for a year and then eventually I want to manual swap and replace all other timing components, if my engine explodes then at least I've experienced the new setup for a while.

**522sixth** · 08-29-2019 05:01 PM

Id be interested to know this as well. If you remove the dowel pins and collapse the tensioner I would think it would work.

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**paul61** · 09-11-2019 09:07 AM

Do yourself a favor and replace all guides with liners. We do these daily, usually 2 engines on bench at same time. Forget about replacing the tensioners and chains......unless u have money to burn? You DO need to disassemble the cam adjusters and inspect the dowel pin hole for elongation. I would STRONGLY suggest you replace the oil check valves located under cover plate and intake! Or....you may experience the same start up rattle due to pressure leakage?? U can check for this when engine is still in car: if check valves are leaking....your oil level on dipstick will rise as car sits.😉😉

**Velox** · 09-11-2019 10:59 AM

Didn't the late B7's came with the Audi's redesigned guides, and still ended up failing?

**VinnysS4** · 09-11-2019 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Velox

Didn't the late B7's came with the Audi's redesigned guides, and still ended up failing?

YES. I've opened a few and all but one has had a broken guide. The one that didn't has already had the timing done 50k before

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**paul61** · 09-11-2019 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by VinnysS4

Have you ever seen a failed RS4
guide that people swap in? If so I encourage you to post up a link or photo. My gut says you wont find a single one.

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How many failed guide liners have you ran across? I've seen a dozen or so, including the accessory gearbox drive.
Same construction, is it not?
I've used the RS4 guide many times, if specified by a customer ( it's cheaper too).
I prefer the new design version of the S4 guide.
I'm guessing you Havent seen the newer design?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by VinnysS4

YES. I've opened a few and all but one has had a broken guide. The one that didn't has already had the timing done 50k before

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Post a pic.

**VinnysS4** · 09-11-2019 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by paul61

How many failed guide liners have you ran across? I've seen a dozen or so, including the accessory gearbox drive.
Same construction, is it not?
I've used the RS4 guide many times, if specified by a customer ( it's cheaper too).
I prefer the new design version of the S4 guide.
I'm guessing you Havent seen the newer design?

- - - Updated - - -

Post a pic.

I've seen several of the other parts fail, but most commonly it's the lower left and the upper middle one.
Yes I've seen the newer design. I currently have a BHF on the bench with one in it(it's not broken, and is the only one I've opened that wasn't. It came out of jdsb6s4 car. Timing was sou. Around 150k and it currently has like 195k on it.

Im at work, I'll post some pics later

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**paul61** · 09-11-2019 03:07 PM

Sounds good.
I've yet to see a broken new design. Entirely possible because there may not be enough hours on them yet since the re issue? But, I cant see where it would break since the that area is now filled in and reinforced?
I'll post some horror ( and hall of fame shite😉) pics in a bit.
Fyi.....i have only old design smashed primary guides to show. Have yet to see a broken new one in approx 20 or more chain services.