Trying to decide on DSG or 6MT in the B8 S4..........

[Deckdout2]

Maybe you guys could give me some insight, especially ones that have driven both and have some reviews upon them. I'm coming from a 6-speed Maxima (Fully Built Maxima, mind you) and paired with my short throw, I thought I would never go to an automatic. However, after driving the GT-R and seeing how flawless the manumatic is in that, it's unbelievable and I then thought I'd never go back to a 6MT if I were to get that car, or one that has a tranny that behaves similar.

So for my next car (B8 S4 is a high contender), I'm trying to decide if I would get it in the DSG or a 6MT. I have a few qualifications as I seldom track my cars down the strip, auto-x, and starting to get into the road course as well. If it was a DSG the shifts have to be quick, minimal lag time. How does this compare to say the M3 SMG box? I would also prefer it to rev-match when I downshift, and I don't mind a little firmness in the shifts as well. Like I mentioned, the one in the GT-R is flawless in every way, and I've never been in a car that shifted so fast, so it might be a little unfair to compare that against anything else, but for me it's a starting point.

If you have a DSG, do you love it, hate it, or would have preferred a 6MT?

If you have a 6MT, do you love it, hate it, or would have preferred a DSG?

What do you wish was better about the option you currently have?

Are their differences in either boxes in either the 2010 vs 2011? What are those differences and are they enough to warrant buying one over the other? I was reading a few places that some versions have Launch Control and others do not. This would be something that I would want. Would it be a mere software upgrade to get that function added to ones without? I think that the sport differential option is required for this as well, correct?

Sorry for the 20 questions. There's not many around for me to test drive, and I want an owners perspective since most of B8 S4 owners are driving enthusiast I presume. Thanks for any info you can provide.

[essfour]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...car_and_driver

Hopefully this will help with your decision!

[helix139]

Maybe you guys could give me some insight, especially ones that have driven both and have some reviews upon them. I'm coming from a 6-speed Maxima (Fully Built Maxima, mind you) and paired with my short throw, I thought I would never go to an automatic. However, after driving the GT-R and seeing how flawless the manumatic is in that, it's unbelievable and I then thought I'd never go back to a 6MT if I were to get that car, or one that has a tranny that behaves similar.

So for my next car (B8 S4 is a high contender), I'm trying to decide if I would get it in the DSG or a 6MT. I have a few qualifications as I seldom track my cars down the strip, auto-x, and starting to get into the road course as well. If it was a DSG the shifts have to be quick, minimal lag time. How does this compare to say the M3 SMG box? I would also prefer it to rev-match when I downshift, and I don't mind a little firmness in the shifts as well. Like I mentioned, the one in the GT-R is flawless in every way, and I've never been in a car that shifted so fast, so it might be a little unfair to compare that against anything else, but for me it's a starting point.

If you have a DSG, do you love it, hate it, or would have preferred a 6MT?

If you have a 6MT, do you love it, hate it, or would have preferred a DSG?

What do you wish was better about the option you currently have?

Are their differences in either boxes in either the 2010 vs 2011? What are those differences and are they enough to warrant buying one over the other? I was reading a few places that some versions have Launch Control and others do not. This would be something that I would want. Would it be a mere software upgrade to get that function added to ones without? I think that the rear differential option is required for this as well, correct?

Sorry for the 20 questions. There's not many around for me to test drive, and I want an owners perspective since most of B8 S4 owners are driving enthusiast I presume. Thanks for any info you can provide.

Get a 6MT and a JHM short shifter. it's pretty close to perfect. In stock form, it is decent with positive enough gear engagement but the throw is slightly long for my liking and there is a little too much slop, especially when going from 6-4 where you could end up in 2 very easily.

Personally I have nothing against the DSG and it's a great transmission mechanically but it's got too many electronic nannies for my liking even on the most aggressive settings (i.e. automatically upshifts even in manual mode and sometimes short of redline). Considering that and the extra $1500 to get it, it just wasn't worth it for me considering I find manuals engaging and fun and the clutch is light enough on these things not to be a burden in stop and go. You've also got to consider the maintenance costs (fluid changes are expensive) and the fact that manuals are a pretty reliable and proven tech and will be less likely to need repair, IMO, and likely less expensive if they do need repair.

Oh, and 2011's have launch control while 2010's do not and as of now, it isn't possible to add it.

[richib86]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...car_and_driver

Hopefully this will help with your decision!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA i love it

[seanj130]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...car_and_driver

Hopefully this will help with your decision!

Would you mind sharing what you do for a living with a garage like yours? A PM is fine.

Best regards,
Sean.

[richib86]

Get a 6MT and a JHM short shifter. it's pretty close to perfect.

agreed

[Matt427]

The decision is entirely personal. I thought about it a long time and I chose a 6MT because I found the DSG lacked the involvement (intimacy?) of the manual. That and it seems that with electric cars making inroads, and the performance of quick shifting auto-manuals, this generation of cars or possibly the next generation will likely not have manual as an option in North America. I felt I may as well enjoy it while it's available.

Some evidence might be forthcoming that the 6MT can produce marginally more power at high RPMs as a result of the DSG software shifting at a different point in the power curve than a human might. However, I doubt this would factor into my decision had I made it again.

The 6MT can be a pain in heavy traffic with constant up/down shifting, but I think it helps keep my mind on driving. The only thing I'd change is to make the pedal pressure about half a pound lighter to make it easier to feather the clutch when necessary.

[burrito007]

I've never driven a GT-R but I've driven an M3 with the DCT transmission. After driving that car I also thought I would never go back to a manual (i had been driving a 6speed m3 for years). When I bought the S4 I was so psyched about the transmission but after living with it for a few weeks I am disappointed. The shifts are not "hard" like they were in the M3 even on the firmest setting. The transmission upshifts when I don't want it to, and won't downshift even though I know theres room for revs (like if i wanted to downshift to first gear and peg it at 6krpm - thats a no go). The shifts are quick, and its a great automatic, but its not what i was hoping for.

... although launch control is great from what I hear.

[AofC_RR]

OP you're in my neck of the woods. I have both here if you want to compare. Shoot me a PM and we'll talk.

[Deckdout2]

Great insight, thanks for the responses so far!

I am getting to that stage where I love my manual, however it would be nice to just cruise sometimes. Every car I've owned has been a manual, and now with the vast available options like DSG, I'm curious as to try my hand at that. I don't want to lose the engagement factor when I need/want to be aggressive. I understand there will be some loss going from 6MT to DSG. However, if the DSG would be good enough to give me what I'm looking for, and I can turn it on and off when I want, then it would be a viable option. Decisions decisions......

[b6onboost]

I've driven a DSG and 6MT. Same review many have given before.

The 6MT has a light clutch, is easy to drive in stop/go traffic, and shifts smoothly. Throws are a little long, but a short shifter can make it perfect.

The DSG feels like an automatic that shifts lightning fast. In auto mode it will find itself in the wrong gear at times, upshift/downshift when you probably wouldn't, and does not give 'full' control to the driver even in manual mode. Basically felt like a traditional automatic/tiptronic most of the time, only shifts a lot quicker.

If the DSG manual mode offered full control, it'd be the perfect 'automatic' (tecnically a sequential manual) tranny. You'd have auto mode, and a quick shifting full control manual mode. However it still lacks the driver involvement of a traditional manual. I will always prefer a clutch pedal and shifter when driving in a spirited nature. In the end its a personal decision. If you like full control and a more involving drive, 6MT. If you mainly like auto but like to have more involvment time to time, DSG.

[SeattleSteve]

I have a 6MT with Strat short shifter and it is AWESOME. So much fun to drive and shifts when I want it to . The short throw was key for me and really has been the best mod for the money so far. I had a 2010 GTI with the new DSG which is very similar to ours (I believe) and thought it was really amazing and a huge step for auto cars. That being said - now that I have had a good comparison, my choice is the 6MT. Purely my opinion.


Steve

[Voltrons_Head]

6MT will be a faster, more powerful car on average.

[Deckdout2]

Excellent responses here.

6MT will be a faster, more powerful car on average.

I was under the impression by what I have read on this forum that this may or may not be true. If I read correctly the fastest B8S4 was from a modded DSG car, correct? Wouldn't that mean the the drivetrain loss between both is relatively the same? I would have only assumed that the 6MT would be faster just by logic and what's been seen in comparison with other cars in the past, but if the technological advances in the DSG help it hold it's ground against the 6MT, then in this category it would be a true contender!

[NWS4Guy]

DSG here, came from 6MT coupe G35, love it, not sorry I left the 6MT and traffic complaints behind. Blisteringly fast, perfectly rev-match up and down shifts. Never had a problem with the car being in the wrong gear since about 400 miles while it learned my driving habits. To address the complaints about not having full control:

CONS
- You can't bounce it off the rev-limiter, it will upshift at redline (but why would you want to?)
- You can't stall it, below 1K RPM's it will forcably downshift to prevent a stall (but why would you want to?)
- With the current DSG flash and an ECU tune that raises redline to 7,200, the DSG will not know this and still shift at 7K without the pending DSG update coming soon from HPA
- Due to the engine timing retard to drop revs fast at each upshift, you may not like the "fart" sound which occurs under shifts over 60% - WOT
- When in "D" it will not show the gear you are in (but after you drive it for a while you learn when you need to single, double, or triple downshift for the power you want)
- If you are cruising along and suddenly floor it, the engine will rev very high to match the speed the engine needs to be for the gear it's changing to - this will result in a slight lag before the proper gear is selected then you take off like a bat out of hell

PROS
- It will shift faster than humanly possible
- It will allow you to override "D" mode to temporary "M" mode using paddles
- You can use the +/- gate to force it in full "M" mode and either shift with paddles or the gear shifter
- You can double and triple tap the paddles to near instantly drop gears (This is preferred to combat the last of the CONS)

Video for reference, yes this is my car and me driving. Note in the DIS (Driver Information Display) lower left corner I am in "D"rive mode. I just triple tap the down paddle and instantly blip from M7 to M4, you almost cannot see the numbers register the shifts are so fast, likewise you can see the tach keep pace with no issues.



As for the fastest recorded car, it is currently a modded DSG, however that is likely due to no 6MT having a 100oct tune and trying this out yet. Due to the DSG not currently shifting at the new chipped 7.2K redline, I would think a 6MT would be faster currently. I have done several friendly roll-ons with a buddy on here and he has the 6MT. There was no difference when we were both stock, save for my shifts being so fast, I would gain maybe a foot each time he shifted, due to the lack of forward momentum on the 6MT.

[Deckdout2]

A very thorough review! Thank you, just what I needed. Also coming from a VQ enthusiast and understanding the mechanics of the Nissan 6MT along with it's notchiness. :) Thanks for the video, that gives me a great visual on the behavior of the down shifts, and you are correct about the ability to shift that fast is not humanly possible. That's another consideration for me when deciding to go this route. Coming from a fully built NA Maxima, I would certainly do the ECU Tune and DSG reflash with the update when soon available, so I would only hope that this would be an improvement to how it functions currently. I also realize that the B8 S4 still has room and time to grow, so vendors out there are still doing their R&D to make it a better product. I can only foresee improvements with future mods in all aspects let alone the gearbox itself.

Thanks again guys. At this point, I'm parting out my car back to stock and it's looking like the B8 S4 is my top contender while doing months of research against other comparable cars and going down my "must have's" list. The only thing that would talk me out of going this route is if I find a GT-R that falls within this price range in the near future. It's a completely different animal I know, but if I can't get that, then I have to stick with a stout sports sedan with great potential modding factors, in the performance area.

[NickS]

6MT will be a faster, more powerful car on average.

In a stright line yes. On a road course, DSG wins hands down.

To the OP.... take into consideration where you drive and how you drive. I come from YEARS of driving a standard transmission and have no regreats about going with DSG. It's simply brilliant.

[primetime]

Buy which ever one makes you happy.....

[NickS]

Buy which ever one makes you happy.....

HEY! Don't come in here with your common sense remarks! :P

[Un1k]

I would also prefer it to rev-match when I downshift

how can any gearbox not rev-match when you downshift?

[helix139]

Excellent responses here.



I was under the impression by what I have read on this forum that this may or may not be true. If I read correctly the fastest B8S4 was from a modded DSG car, correct? Wouldn't that mean the the drivetrain loss between both is relatively the same? I would have only assumed that the 6MT would be faster just by logic and what's been seen in comparison with other cars in the past, but if the technological advances in the DSG help it hold it's ground against the 6MT, then in this category it would be a true contender!

The fastest B8 is currently a modded DSG, but the fastest car, stock for stock, is a 6MT that recorded a 12.698 down at Palm Beach International Raceway.

[richib86]

i love manual cars but if i HAD to get an auto, id be thrilled that it was a dsg, it was a lot of fun to drive. its right up there with the smg II trans in the e46 m3 as well as the smg III in the m6(hours and hours of seat time in both) and after the hpa tune comes out for it im sure it'll be a beast

[richib86]

The fastest B8 is currently a modded DSG, but the fastest car, stock for stock, is a 6MT that recorded a 12.698 down at Palm Beach International Raceway.

to be fair hes also one of very few running the 100 octane file... when switching comes out ill be at the track and we will see what happens

[richib86]

how can any gearbox not rev-match when you downshift?

i know what he means, in the e46 m3 the driver still controls the rev match and can choose how high the revs go when they rev match it. these cars, and correct me if im wrong, only automatically rev match to where the revs SHOULD be

[NickS]

i know what he means, in the e46 m3 the driver still controls the rev match and can choose how high the revs go when they rev match it. these cars, and correct me if im wrong, only automatically rev match to where the revs SHOULD be

Correct.

[Deckdout2]

Un1k -

There are some out there that don't. Maybe you don't quite understand my "rev-match" connotation. I'm referring to blip-ping the throttle as you would with a 6MT to match the revs before you let the clutch out. This allows you to get into the actual gear you are downshifting to quicker without grinding to make for a quicker acceleration out of a said corner as well as saves syncros on the mechanical aspects in a manual transmission. To the same respect, rev matching in an automatic or this case DSG would be beneficial as well. In a normal automatic transmission and some cars with manu-matic shifting not all the time rev matches before the clutch is released. Just because you can change gears in an automatic with manual mode, does not necessarily have the ability to rev-match. Most cars with dual clutches have this capability.

[Deckdout2]

The fastest B8 is currently a modded DSG, but the fastest car, stock for stock, is a 6MT that recorded a 12.698 down at Palm Beach International Raceway.

Thanks for clarifying that. That's sick to think that with this much curb weight it's able to pull 12's in stock form.

[Deckdout2]

This is what I'm waiting to see. What characteristics will change with this tune.

[primetime]

The fastest B8 is currently a modded DSG, but the fastest car, stock for stock, is a 6MT that recorded a 12.698 down at Palm Beach International Raceway.

Correct.... Not trying to start a 1/4 mile time war but my car was only at the track twice stock and it was 100% stock with 1700 ft DA's and only 770 miles on it.... So shitty conditions with a very tight motor..... The 12.69 was in -400 to -700 DA and also had after market rims but not sure how much lighter.... Either way dude is a great driver and his car is running well but I think I could have come very close to that time with a better DA and more miles on the car since I was only .16 worse..... Just something to think about.....

[primetime]

to be fair hes also one of very few running the 100 octane file... when switching comes out ill be at the track and we will see what happens

Yes we will..... You'll need to go 11.5 or better :)~ Did you replace the clutch when you had the motor out? May need it with the 100 octane tune if you go with some of the information that Eurocode's "driver" posted....

[richib86]

nah i didnt replace the clutch, i have a sneaking feeling that they abuse there car quite a bit or it was a fluke. ive heard audi techs tell me these clutches are rated for far more power than the car comes with stock

[Un1k]

i know what he means, in the e46 m3 the driver still controls the rev match and can choose how high the revs go when they rev match it. these cars, and correct me if im wrong, only automatically rev match to where the revs SHOULD be

Ok, I understand thank you.

to contribute to the OP:

I test drove the DSG for about 20 min, and had a loaner (this was a diesel a3) for about 4 hrs.
It is good in a sense that you do not make mistakes shifting. You do go to the strip and auto-x (or maybe you go out to the track as well) so I'm guessing this will play a major roll in giving you a better lap time etc.
Maybe I was skeptic about the non-traditional Mt, but I didn't love the DSG S4 I drove. It was somewhat boring.. just put your foot down, and steer, end.
I found this more apparant when I had the loaner (I konw the a3 is nothing compared to the S4 but still). only thing I found fun was just keep shifting up and down to see the rpm move, but obviously I would not do this to the car that I love, so this does not apply to the car you will buy

I own a 6MT, and did not regret for a second. I don't wonder 'oh, maybe I should've gone with the DSG,' I wonder 'omg what if I went with DSG'
I am by no means an experienced driver. I would love to go to the track and is planning to, but I'm guessing I will make a lot of mistakes.. lol!
but I do not mind it at all! I have so much fun with just daily driving this car.

I heard someone say that they will buy a MT for daily driver and DSG for the track. While I understand this statement, I don't think I will ever buy a DSG transmission UNLESS it is the only gearbox offered.

[burrito007]

In a stright line yes. On a road course, DSG wins hands down.

To the OP.... take into consideration where you drive and how you drive. I come from YEARS of driving a standard transmission and have no regreats about going with DSG. It's simply brilliant.

its a brilliant transmission - its just not as good as the others on the market due to lack of control. All they needed to do was take away the stupid auto-upshift in manual mode and it would be more than perfect.

[Deckdout2]

Statistically it's about half and half on either gearbox. That says alot in itself, not only is it driver preference, but either would be up to par for any driving scenario is what I'm gathering.

[ENV²]

You know... Here is my dilemna... I have the 6MT. I love it now that the defective clutch has been replaced under 2k miles... The new clutch (once warmed up) now creaks if I let out the clutch very slowly. ( Not sure if its because its brand new with like 20 miles on it) I will wait til 5k service to bring it up in case something needs lubing. I had a slightly modded 2004 350Z and I loved the clutch/tranny in that car. Im not sure if the feel is different in the Audi because of the quattro system transfering power but sometimes it felt a little jerky (with old clutch) and I am really not a drive-by-wire fan but I got used to it :-). I liked the drive by cable opening throttle body style more it felt better to me as a driver. Now, having driven an E60 M5 for 3 months here in NY I would say that if the DSG is anything like that or better I should have gone with the DSG. (only because my car was in the shop 3x for the clutch jerkiness, clicking, etc etc.)

Now I am told its normal once certain clutches get hot for them to have mechanical sounds like a creaking pedal. The creaking I have in my car seems like a non lubed spring to the pedal not heard outside or under the car just felt through my foot and barely heard inside. Anyone else can chime in on if this is normal.
The throw is a little long and a STS will fix this problem. So hopefully if you choose a 6MT yours wiull be better cause apparently I have a demon clutch lol.

[S|Quattro|4]

I have the 6MT and I love it. Ive never had an automatic car and I dont think I could ever got a dsg car, even though it is a great transmission. You really cant go wrong. Its up to driver preference. You cant one over another b/c its a couple tenths faster or slower.

I dont have a short shifter, and I dont plan on getting one. I like the throws and it does feel a little wobly but I dont mind it. I drove an S4 with the startmosphere short shifter and hated it. It made it very difficult to get the gears in.

[Kandiru]

Audi is left alone in their attempt to offer luxury and true enthusiast performance, with Acura following but not quite as successfully.

The 6MT availability is what makes this car unique IMHO, in the sea of luxo sedans that get 6MT deletions every time an AWD platform is introduced.

[Leor604]

For me, it's got nothing to do with being a tenth faster or slower to 60 or the 1/4, or the techno-geeky thrill of automatic rev matching. It's about involvement, control and satisfaction. I dread the (inevitable) day when cars effectively drive themselves. This is possible right now, but infrastructure is not in place. At that point, your car has been turned into an individual-sized bus or train and you are just along for the ride. DSG, radar cruise control, lane departure control, etc. are some of the technologies that are slowly but surely leading us down this path. BBBBOOOOORRRRRIIIIIIINNNNNGGGGG!!!!

When Megan Fox knocks on my door and is looking for a little action, I would prefer to use a "manual stick" rather than pushing a button on the "auto" sex machine and having it do the job for me. The machine might be faster, stronger, more consistent, etc. It will certainly have more "control". However, I don't think it would be quite as satisfying, at least not for me (Megan might argue otherwise).

Having said that, my dealer told me about 85% of the S4's rolling out the door are DSG's. The nice thing is we have a choice. Some people like to participate, and others like to watch.

[Voltrons_Head]

For me, it's got nothing to do with being a tenth faster or slower to 60 or the 1/4, or the techno-geeky thrill of automatic rev matching. It's about involvement, control and satisfaction. I dread the (inevitable) day when cars effectively drive themselves. This is possible right now, but infrastructure is not in place. At that point, your car has been turned into an individual-sized bus or train and you are just along for the ride. DSG, radar cruise control, lane departure control, etc. are some of the technologies that are slowly but surely leading us down this path. BBBBOOOOORRRRRIIIIIIINNNNNGGGGG!!!!

When Megan Fox knocks on my door and is looking for a little action, I would prefer to use a "manual stick" rather than pushing a button on the "auto" sex machine and having it do the job for me. The machine might be faster, stronger, more consistent, etc. It will certainly have more "control". However, I don't think it would be quite as satisfying, at least not for me (Megan might argue otherwise).

Having said that, my dealer told me about 85% of the S4's rolling out the door are DSG's. The nice thing is we have a choice. Some people like to participate, and others like to watch.

Ha ha. Well played.

[kmjmrq]

CONS
- When in "D" it will not show the gear you are in (but after you drive it for a while you learn when you need to single, double, or triple downshift for the power you want)

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2793220

check that out.. vag will allow to let u see what gear u're in D and S..just like when you're in M mode...