Need Advice and Info on Building my B5 S4 to Stage 3

[laseRed02]

Posted this on the Car Lounge, hopefully I can get more support and info here!!

My 2002 S4 has about 97k on her, and I smell oil nearly every time I drive or "get on it". I know this oil to be from both my turbos, the driver's side especially. This can only mean one thing: it's time to plan for their replacements! (because this car is just too tunable to sell ).

I can think of three routes, with two of them being similar:
1. Purchase a complete kit from a company such as AWE Tuning.
2. Purchase an eliminator kit.
3. Build my own.

Since the first choice is so expensive, I'm going to opt out of it. I am not in a rush, and I may be able to save money if I can find lightly used parts like injectors, on the forums.
I know very little about eliminator kits and I'm skeptical of them as I am of any other kit. I am open to them, I just don't know much about them. The kits in mind are the Tial 605 and Tial 770R.

Building a kit seems like the best way to go if you know what you're doing. And I don't, but I would love to learn. I'll make it real easy and break down into a slightly annotated list what I don't know/would like to know. Before I do, I have to state for all the sarcastic and critical on here, I am aware that I could look all this up myself but I'm hoping that in posting here I will be given reliable information and reliable sources of it so that I don't have to start this search "in the dark", saving me a lot of time.

What I'd like to know:

What are the absolute essentials for the stage 3 upgrade/big(ger) turbo replacement from K03's?
Eliminator kits lead me to believe that all I need are the turbos. I find this difficult to fathom. What would I need to get the car running with bigger turbos on it?

I plan to drive this car every day for the next few years and I'd like something more interesting and powerful than K04s but I also want this to be "daily drivable", in less redundant terms this means fast spool. What turbos would be the best in terms of reliability, price, overall power and responsiveness(spool)?

What else should I get aside from the essentials? I already have an FMIC which I never installed, and recently AWE 2.5 downpipes and catback. I'm looking to sell the downpipes and upgrade to 3inchers for the turbos btw.

How much MUST I spend to get the car running with big(ger)? How much SHOULD I spend in order to have a build that is safe and powerful?

Before you answer I just have to clear up that I am putting this kit together knowing that my K03's could break very soon. So the kit is a "safety" and also a work in progress if the K03's do actually hold up. Also, labor is something expected to come further down the line, so I'll deal with that expense when the time comes.

I just want to know what I would need to get my car running if I hear that dreaded dentist's drill And also what to get if I don't, so I can make my affordable, reliable, and powerful, dream build.



Thank you for spending your time reading this post and I'm sure I'll find any helpful information invaluable. Happy Holidays!

[americanthunder]

Since you are somewhat close I would give EPL a call and talk about some options. I wouldn't bother with a OTS kit unless you get a smokin deal on a used one. First you should decide what your goals are, if you just want to keep it as simple as possible or go nuts with it? I personally would go 605's if your keeping the stock block, 770's if you plan on building. All you really need to run 605's is EPL fueling, 605's, inlets, clutch. Obviously things like 3 inch downpipes and upgraded intercoolers, upgraded fuel pump, meth injection are somethings you would want but you dont absolutely need them.

[laseRed02]

Thanks for the response thunder,
I want to go the cheapest route possible to just get the power, but I want to still be left with options. Shomegrown on fourtitude linked me these
http://www.audizine.com/classifieds/...nturbos&cat=23
they look very interesting, know anything about them?
he suggested i do a stage 3- set up, which seems like the best way to go on my limited budget. But with nearly 98k on the clock, is it even worth it? Won't more shit just break, digging me into a hole?
I hope I don't have to sell this and go with an old miata...:'( ....not that there's anything wrong with that...(allusion to Seinfeld)

[Matador]

Pretty sure VAST has a RS6/hybrid kit, but their site is down.

Most people are going to say their advice is to "search." Make sure you read and read. Also make sure that in your budget you're not just accounting for buying the parts for the kit but everything else that you're going to end up replacing. Vacuum hoses, coolant tank, etc. that will inevitably be old and crusty that you weren't expecting.

And don't cheap out, you get what you pay for. Yeah you could piecemeal a kit together expecting big horsepower for at or under $5k, but you're going to end up with big headaches when shit starts breaking and falling apart. Save up, do it right the first time.

[laseRed02]

Other than a coolant tank and vacuum hoses what other expenses should I worry about?
And that's a good point Matador, a very good point. To respond to you and americanthunder, my goal would then be to "piecemeal" together a kit in a way that I will be able to put it on without having it all together. So I don't want very expensive turbos, and I just need to know what order to get what in. Do you know what I mean? Thank you for your response, very helpful!

[americanthunder]

link doesn't work. cheapest route possible would be k04's with stock fueling (3-), but you won't really get the big power. You could go k04's and piece together a fueling kit, but then you run into the problem of tuning. Most tuners like to tune their own fueling kits. I would keep my eyes open for a AWE fueling kit or something similar that comes with everything you need.

[americanthunder]

Other than a coolant tank and vacuum hoses what other expenses should I worry about?
And that's a good point Matador, a very good point. To respond to you and americanthunder, my goal would then be to "piecemeal" together a kit in a way that I will be able to put it on without having it all together. So I don't want very expensive turbos, and I just need to know what order to get what in. Do you know what I mean? Thank you for your response, very helpful!

k04's + inlets and a clutch would be a good start. You can run stock fueling, while you piece together your stage 3 fueling and add later, same goes for your exhaust you can always upgrade that as you go. Also IMO I would ditch the front mount and get some side mounts instead. I dont think it's worth the head ache and destruction of your bumper. Been there done that learned my lesson not to cheap out.

[Tormented]

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...a-Tial-6**-kit
There is a link to plenty of info on the TIAL kit.

Also you could go the route of buying turbos and getting a Unitronic Flash from RAI
http://www.raimotorsport.com/product-p/uniad052.htm

[imola]

If you're going to do it right, OTS K04 kit is actually probably the cheapest. Tials and custom setups will have so many little parts that add up so extremely quick, people give up in no time.. Like mentioned above, do you research, don't rush into it, do it once and do it right. Don't cheap out with this car. A properly done K04 stage 3 from stock is about 10k, give or take a couple.

[americanthunder]

If you're going to do it right, OTS K04 kit is actually probably the cheapest. Tials and custom setups will have so many little parts that add up so extremely quick, people give up in no time.. Like mentioned above, do you research, don't rush into it, do it once and do it right. Don't cheap out with this car. A properly done K04 stage 3 from stock is about 10k, give or take a couple.

completely disagree with the tial comment, If you get the tial 605 kit and EPL fueling it is every bit as easy as any k04 kit. If anything maybe a slightly slightly more involved install.

[imola]

completely disagree with the tial comment, If you get the tial 605 kit and EPL fueling it is every bit as easy as any k04 kit. If anything maybe a slightly slightly more involved install.

yeah, tial 605's would be easy, 770's not so much.

[laseRed02]

I'm sorry I wasn't more thorough in my mods list. I have a stage 2 clutch from AWE and a lightweight, aluminum flywheel. I HAD the car chipped, and I have my awe downpipes but they are no longer installed. I already have a JHM frontmount which I payed nearly 850 if not more for when I thought they were cool. facepalm

[americanthunder]

yeah, tial 605's would be easy, 770's not so much.

well yes and no, install would be pretty similar turbo and fueling wise. The thing is your obviously looking at a motor build which in that case your talking $$$$$$$ and endless little parts.

[Matador]

Other than a coolant tank and vacuum hoses what other expenses should I worry about?
And that's a good point Matador, a very good point. To respond to you and americanthunder, my goal would then be to "piecemeal" together a kit in a way that I will be able to put it on without having it all together. So I don't want very expensive turbos, and I just need to know what order to get what in. Do you know what I mean? Thank you for your response, very helpful!

Off the top of my head? Potential replacements/issues:
- Spark Plugs (almost a must)
- Coil pack(s)
- Knock sensor
- O2 sensor(s)
- Silicone hoses (get a e-bay $100 kit and good to go)
- Brake job/upgrade
- Upgraded motor mounts
- Clutch/flywheel (not sure if people count that in the Stage 3 "upgrade")
- Timing belt
- Water pump replacement

Et cetera, et cetera. These are just things I've read people having to replace or ended up upgrading since the engine was out anyway. The inherent project itself of upgrades combined with the higher mileage of your car means some service items should be/will need replaced at the same time. Of course out of these items, best case scenario is nothing is needed; worst case is EVERYTHING needs fixed. Just be prepared to address a potential $2k on top of whatever you're budgeting for whatever else may come to bite you.

[hellrot98m3]

im looking into possibly doing another build for a dd with quicker spool than my gt car if i pick up a shell. im thinking about doing frankenturbos with tubular manifolds $2,600, er sidemounts $1,300, stern motor and trans mounts $330, 044 pump $400, ssac downpipes $229, ssac exhaust$500, tb was recently done, vast tune and ev14 42 or 52lbers $1,300ish, fx400 $700, vast ltw flwheel $500, 90mm ford lightning maf $80, apikol diff mount $205 and carrier bushings $55, apr bipipe $330. should be a fun daily at around 9gs for all the parts and tune without labor and shipping, thats being conservative and im sure im leaving things out . i think thats a pretty diesel setup for all new parts, should make over 400whp, k03 spool and k04 top end. this is assuming your motor is in good shape and doesnt need any new sensors or other maintenance items.

[jibberjive]

k04's + inlets and a clutch would be a good start. You can run stock fueling, while you piece together your stage 3 fueling and add later, same goes for your exhaust you can always upgrade that as you go. Also IMO I would ditch the front mount and get some side mounts instead. I dont think it's worth the head ache and destruction of your bumper. Been there done that learned my lesson not to cheap out.

Since you're looking to go very cheapest, this is what I'd do^^. Find the KO4's used or have blown ones rebuilt for under $2k, and get inlets. I'd probably just wait and save up a little more to buy some used OTS awe or whoever fueling for like $1k or a tiny bit more at the same time so that you don't have to worry about the stage 3- tune/bigger FPR issue. That's a little over $3k and that'll get you running until you decide to upgrade the peripheral stuff or get a custom tune or whatever.

im looking into possibly doing another build for a dd with quicker spool than my gt car if i pick up a shell. im thinking about doing frankenturbos with tubular manifolds $2,600, er sidemounts $1,300, stern motor and trans mounts $330, 044 pump $400, ssac downpipes $229, ssac exhaust$500, tb was recently done, vast tune and ev14 42 or 52lbers $1,300ish, fx400 $700, vast ltw flwheel $500, 90mm ford lightning maf $80, apikol diff mount $205 and carrier bushings $55, apr bipipe $330. should be a fun daily at around 9gs for all the parts and tune without labor and shipping, thats being conservative and im sure im leaving things out . i think thats a pretty diesel setup for all new parts, should make over 400whp, k03 spool and k04 top end. this is assuming your motor is in good shape and doesnt need any new sensors or other maintenance items.

Are there any pictures of the franken tubular manis? I looked and couldn't find any. Also, with your built motor and everything that you've done on the other car, might it be cheaper to just swap out your GT's for other GT's with a more enjoyable powerband rather than buying a new car? And I assume the $9k you're saying with the proposed Frankenturbo car is without the price of the car?

[DiscoPotato]

Frankenturbos!!

[VR6Bomber]

I see that you are in Northern NJ;
You might want to call/PM the guys @ Redline Speed Worx (Washington NJ).
They have some b5s4 builds going on at the moment.
I understand they work with EPL.


Also,
Piecing together your own kit sometimes isn't the cheapest route, btdt.

[hellrot98m3]

Since you're looking to go very cheapest, this is what I'd do^^. Find the KO4's used or have blown ones rebuilt for under $2k, and get inlets. I'd probably just wait and save up a little more to buy some used OTS awe or whoever fueling for like $1k or a tiny bit more at the same time so that you don't have to worry about the stage 3- tune/bigger FPR issue. That's a little over $3k and that'll get you running until you decide to upgrade the peripheral stuff or get a custom tune or whatever.



Are there any pictures of the franken tubular manis? I looked and couldn't find any. Also, with your built motor and everything that you've done on the other car, might it be cheaper to just swap out your GT's for other GT's with a more enjoyable powerband rather than buying a new car? And I assume the $9k you're saying with the proposed Frankenturbo car is without the price of the car?

actually the car and some other parts i need are included in that price ;). i honestly have no real problem with my gt cars powerband, its been down for so long that having it running now is such a relief. im going to keep the 2560s on for a while, max them out and ride around with them until i can justify getting 770s or whatever the new flavor of the week is. when i picked up my gt turbos there was no real talk of tial turbos yet or else my car would be making 637whp also lol. i hope she makes 550whp, i can live with that... for now at least.

i might be selling my bimmer and using the money to do the frankenturbo build. as of now the motor is a stock 2.7 which is why i was thinking about doing the frankenturbos. if i decide to throw rods in it, (which is a long shot) i would swap the 2560s on her and get 770s for my current s with better fueling. this is all up in the air right now but the plan is to get rid of the bmw as of now because it is killing my insurance and the s isnt nearly as bad. the two cars are totally different though but both are such tunable cars. rwd, convetible, 3.2l, great handling, 5spd, precision 35r all make the bmw wicked fun to drive. i have a friend that wants to pick it up when they get home from afgan so i know it will be in good hands.

[coreyj]

Here is my stage 3 build
frankenturbos
2 rebuilt cylinder heads
new used set of cams and lifters
all new seals
head gasket sets
new rod and main bearings
new rs4 motor mounts
new rebuilt kevlar clutch w/ rs4 pp
rebuilt 01E transmission
timing belt kit
new water pump
metal t-stat housing
stage 3 fueling kit from AWE 440cc used
ebay inlet pipes
Ive done all this for $3500-$4000
but it helps to know some awesome sources and getting things used. plus i do the labor myself.