APR and changing cars a no go

[audi5574]

I searched and didn't find this discussed before. I am looking at a 2011 A5 and my A4 is APR stage 2 plus. I will return the car to stock and sell the hardware items buts its a no go on be able to do anyhting with the software which just sucks. Why is apr not selling some kind of software loader where we can return the car to stock and atleast sell or upload a new software file to the loader. I have owned and currently own a diesel truck and they sell the loader and let you change software at anytime you buy a new truck same brand or different brand if they write the software. The loader is about a 1000 dollars with gauges but its worth it with the flexability. (H&S performance) So who makes a good tune and actually sells the loader where you have options. At this time I have no plans to go back to APR. I know of the Swedish tuner BSR who I might give a try.

Thanks

[elsst3]

yep bsr that's what i was going 2 say

[eccarlino]

with bsr, you can just order their loader and plug and play thats it? how's the program? does it work with a testpipe?

[rvca3112]

i had a BSR on my volvo s60R. shit was really nice. always cool to be able to throw the car back to stock with the press of a button for the dealership. i had full exhaust on mine too. wasnt aware they did our cars also.

[Der Konig]

Maybe I'm slow, but I'm confused. You're angry because you can't transfer the software to a different car? They would lose so much business if they did that. Paying 600 bucks for a life long tune on any audi you own would just be stupid cheap. I doubt anyone that has chipped an audi would stray far from VAG, which would mean they lose all that business. Seems fair to me, when I had my cobra tuned it was through a handheld programmer but was only transferable to cars within the same year range and model. Sold it with the car and don't regret that, not like I can turn around and use it on my audi which makes sense.

That's pretty awesome about the truck loader, and don't get me wrong that'd be amazing if it was offered on our cars (apparently BSR). Other than that it doesn't make fiscal sense to offer it that way.

[Operator]

I searched and didn't find this discussed before. I am looking at a 2011 A5 and my A4 is APR stage 2 plus. I will return the car to stock and sell the hardware items buts its a no go on be able to do anyhting with the software which just sucks. Why is apr not selling some kind of software loader where we can return the car to stock and atleast sell or upload a new software file to the loader. I have owned and currently own a diesel truck and they sell the loader and let you change software at anytime you buy a new truck same brand or different brand if they write the software. The loader is about a 1000 dollars with gauges but its worth it with the flexability. (H&S performance) So who makes a good tune and actually sells the loader where you have options. At this time I have no plans to go back to APR. I know of the Swedish tuner BSR who I might give a try.

Thanks

Not that I've used it, but a quick look shows it'll cost $1,050. Now, I'd venture, somewhere it's on sale...........

And as to being able to use it on multiple cars. I'm not sure what this means

For reasons of security, the PPC unit has been designed so that it "marries" itself to the car to which it is first connected.

I'm sure if you give them a call they can break it down more.

How many more times though, do you think you'll be able to use this unit after you get the A5. If you keep that car for 4-5 years, who knows what the tech will be like when you buy a new car. Who says you don't buy a Porsche at that point, is an A5 tune going to help you? If $1,050 is the price point, and you don't care about multi programs, APR's single file twice is $1100.

Also after 2 years:

Who can sign the BSR support agreement?
We offer the support agreement to all customers that buy, or already have bought, PPC Tuning System. The support agreement is included in the price and free of charge for two years from the time of buying. After that we offer you to renew the agreement one year at a time, costing $82/year. The agreement is affiliated with the car. When exchanging car the agreement is transferred to the new owner.

Makes it sound like you won't be taking the program to another car. Oh, and paying for support yearly can add up.

[Sales@RAI]

I don't know why this is surprising to you. There is labor/tools/time involved when doing these flashes, its not a flashloader where you can just transfer files

[Der Konig]

I don't know why this is surprising to you. There is labor/tools/time involved when doing these flashes, its not a flashloader where you can just transfer files

Exactly, it was something like $100 in labor for my Apr flash. I believe "married" to a car means that once it is linked and uploaded to a car, you can't run off and put it on another. Would have to unload it from the original "married" car and then it's free again to upload to a different car. At least that's what it meant on my cobra's predator programmer which I would imagine would use the same terminology in that context.

[davis449]

I don't know why this is surprising to you. There is labor/tools/time involved when doing these flashes, its not a flashloader where you can just transfer files

Ummm, yeah it basically is. Unless your car has to be flashed by setting the ECU in write mode, there's almost no labor involved in flashing a car with software from any of the major tuners. It's APR (and others) method of delivery that makes it "impossible" to use a flashloader-type device.

[audi5574]

I understand what you all are saying but I would have no problem in paying for another tune at a reduced price that I can load on the car myself its a pain in the ass going to a shop and having them do it. Or if I could remove the software and sell it to someone at a reduced cost to recover some of my money. Thats all I am saying it does not make sense that you lose all your money on the software. Its kind of difficult to find someone to switch ecu's with that would want the apr flash. Once again the diesel world is way ahead in the game when it comes to programers. I can do so much with my H&S mini max 0n my 2010 dodge cummins.

[davis449]

I understand what you all are saying but I would have no problem in paying for another tune at a reduced price that I can load on the car myself its a pain in the ass going to a shop and having them do it. Or if I could remove the software and sell it to someone at a reduced cost to recover some of my money. Thats all I am saying it does not make sense that you lose all your money on the software. Its kind of difficult to find someone to switch ecu's with that would want the apr flash. Once again the diesel world is way ahead in the game when it comes to programers. I can do so much with my H&S mini max 0n my 2010 dodge cummins.

Again, no they are not. It's the method of delivery APR and the others choose that makes it this way. Their software could just as easily be given to you on a CD-ROM that you plug a cable into and load it yourself.

[Der Konig]

Ummm, yeah it basically is. Unless your car has to be flashed by setting the ECU in write mode, there's almost no labor involved in flashing a car with software from any of the major tuners. It's APR (and others) method of delivery that makes it "impossible" to use a flashloader-type device.

If you're transfering it to a new car it would be a new tune for a new ECU, therefore in "write mode" meaning labor and that junk.

I understand what you're saying OP. While it does suck, you gotta do what you gotta do kind of thing.

[davis449]

If you're transfering it to a new car it would be a new tune for a new ECU, therefore in "write mode" meaning labor and that junk.

It depends on the car as to whether or not it can be direct ported or the ECU has to be pulled and taken apart to be set in write mode. That actually involves labor and only the newest of Audi's requires that be done. Direct Port tuning a "new" car, if that can indeed be done to the particular car, involves no more labor than plugging in a cable to the OBD II port. $100 is absolutely a rip off for Direct Port Tuning a car.

[Operator]

Or if I could remove the software and sell it to someone at a reduced cost to recover some of my money. Thats all I am saying it does not make sense that you lose all your money on the software.

That I can understand... Sell it, and put that money towards a new tune. Just make 100% sure BSR will let you do that.

[NastyNate]

Personally I'm glad that APR hasn't chimed in here. The thing that no one has mentioned is that the pricing and delivery model for these tunes is dependent on the business model that the tuning companies have. If you could just load the stuff using a USB cable or OBD-II then most of us would just get our tunes from a friend. The result of that? No more tunes, because it wouldn't be worth it. This is demonstrated by the higher price point of the BSR solution.

To specifically address OP's question, I understand wanting to get a "credit" or some sort of transferability if you were to total an A4 and buy a comparable A4. But to want credit/transferability for the tune just because you're not going to use it anymore is nonsense.

[davis449]

Personally I'm glad that APR hasn't chimed in here. The thing that no one has mentioned is that the pricing and delivery model for these tunes is dependent on the business model that the tuning companies have. If you could just load the stuff using a USB cable or OBD-II then most of us would just get our tunes from a friend. The result of that? No more tunes, because it wouldn't be worth it. This is demonstrated by the higher price point of the BSR solution.

To specifically address OP's question, I understand wanting to get a "credit" or some sort of transferability if you were to total an A4 and buy a comparable A4. But to want credit/transferability for the tune just because you're not going to use it anymore is nonsense.

Really? No one mentioned this in this thread?

[elwigglero]

APR wants authorized and trained dealers to install the software because they don't want (and probably aren't equipped) to cover technical support for thousands of people who are going to require the assistance. They also need to protect the dealer relationship as these are the installers and salesman for their products. If they did allow you to load your own software, they'd have to change their pricing model and charge for an annual support contract, so they could cover the calls they'd receive.

I don't want to pay for that. I'm happy with a one-time fee for a re-flash that stays with the car. When I sell the car, I sell the APR flash along with it.

[Gil2.0T]

ill trade you my stock ecu for your stage 2 one...

[vwnobby]

I don't think the OP's thoughts are complete nonsense. I feel the same way. When I chipped my 97 GLX, I physically had a product that I could take out and drop into another vehicle. Same thing with my brothers '01 1.8T. He paid for a chip and was able to remove it. I understand that the companies need to make money, but we are paying (a lot more now, then back then) for a product that we can't physically handle. If someone totals their vehicle and they get another one, why shouldn't they be able to go to the tuner company and get the program loaded to the new vehicle, with the program free of charge? They already paid for the program. Most people will not be able to recoup the cost of the software if they sell their vehicle. If you installed an exhaust system, or intercoolers, you could physically remove them and recoup some of the initial cost. I just think that it should work that way for software as well.

[jl87]

Direct Port tuning a "new" car, if that can indeed be done to the particular car, involves no more labor than plugging in a cable to the OBD II port. $100 is absolutely a rip off for Direct Port Tuning a car.

+1...My APR guy did it for free because of this. I can see maybe a few bucks, but $100 for plug and play? He launched the program and went back to working on another Audi he had on a lift. 40 minutes later it was ready for a test drive.

[Gil2.0T]

If you installed an exhaust system, or intercoolers, you could physically remove them and recoup some of the initial cost. I just think that it should work that way for software as well.

i agree

[audi5574]

Once again some of you are not understanding me I want to be able to sell the software whether i get 10 dollars for it its my choice. Its just with APR I don't have this option. I would gladly trade gil for nothing if he lived in UT. Look at what I have for diesel truck at H&S performance and you will understand the luxuries I have yes I know its a different world but would just like something comparable. The dealer is going to certify my car so it will be returned to stock and yes the software will stay with the car and the new owner will have no clue.

[Operator]

+1...My APR guy did it for free because of this. I can see maybe a few bucks, but $100 for plug and play? He launched the program and went back to working on another Audi he had on a lift. 40 minutes later it was ready for a test drive.

Yeh, I guess each installer is different, but I just had to pay for the flash, no labor cost involved. Same thing for the Stage II flash, but that was free from APR and the tuner shop.

But a good question was asked earlier. Do they have tunes for the upgrades you so to your car, i.e. II, II+ etc. I see it says stage I on their dyno: http://www.esetuning.com/BSR-PPC-Tun...420tfsiawd.htm

Nevermind, they do: http://en.bsr.se/products/t1073/

[VZWalex]

Maybe I can shed some light on the Situation ....

1. Have you Called APR? if you have not .. .please call them and speak with Arin or Or Chris Teauge.

2. Yes they can do a Software Transfer ( I am hoping that is still the case and that prices have not gone up )

This is the process I went through ....

1. Had to have car flashed back to stock (2007 A4 2.0T)

2. Called APR and Paid them the $50 transfer fee ( not sure if this has gone up or changed )

3. Took car to my local Apr Dealer (will not mention the place cause I still think they are lying douche bags)
They verify that the car is back to stock and Call APR to verify all is back to stock.

4. Took new car to Local Apr Dealer ... they Call APR for coupon code to authorize software flash on new car... New car is then flashed :) at this point if you want to add any new
features is a good time.

5. You are done.

I will say that IMO flashing software does not require you to have a rocket scientist degree and it bedazzles me to see how some of these guys try to act like they are performing brain surgery ... seriously ... anyways ... the APR dealer charged me $100 to perform the task of my software swap ... So my total out of pocket expense was $150 which included the $50 paid to APR for the transfer. I later added the valet feature and paid for that separately... over all .. I think it was well worth it even though that APR dealer lost all my future business because of something so simple as integrity .... I wont get into that right now but at least you know that a software transfer is possible.

hope this helps.

[davis449]

Maybe I can shed some light on the Situation ....

1. Have you Called APR? if you have not .. .please call them and speak with Arin or Or Chris Teauge.

2. Yes they can do a Software Transfer ( I am hoping that is still the case and that prices have not gone up )

This is the process I went through ....

1. Had to have car flashed back to stock (2007 A4 2.0T)

2. Called APR and Paid them the $50 transfer fee ( not sure if this has gone up or changed )

3. Took car to my local Apr Dealer (will not mention the place cause I still think they are lying douche bags)
They verify that the car is back to stock and Call APR to verify all is back to stock.

4. Took new car to Local Apr Dealer ... they Call APR for coupon code to authorize software flash on new car... New car is then flashed :) at this point if you want to add any new
features is a good time.

5. You are done.

I will say that IMO flashing software does not require you to have a rocket scientist degree and it bedazzles me to see how some of these guys try to act like they are performing brain surgery ... seriously ... anyways ... the APR dealer charged me $100 to perform the task of my software swap ... So my total out of pocket expense was $150 which included the $50 paid to APR for the transfer. I later added the valet feature and paid for that separately... over all .. I think it was well worth it even though that APR dealer lost all my future business because of something so simple as integrity .... I wont get into that right now but at least you know that a software transfer is possible.

hope this helps.

I thought this was the case concerning software transfer.

[deeznuts]

my APR dealer charges 75.
rocket science? literally he plugs it into the computer, types some information in, and i guess the map file, and the computer does the rest itself for 20 minutes
all said and done its a half hour out of the shops time to do it, so it is justified i guess.

[mr shickadance]

you should just talk with apr and explain to them that since you are selling your a4 that they can return it to stock, and with the purchase of the a5 get a credit for an a5 tune.....be grateful if they even give you 1/2 of that

the reasons businesses dont do what you would like them too is bc it is just not profitable for them to do so....why would they give up sales to a customer if they dont have to? because its the nice thing to do? yeah sure....but nice doesn;t pay the bills at the end of the month....bottom line no company is in the market because they want to help out...

[R1NSE]

someone should tell this guy

http://www.audizine.com/classifieds/...ded-ecu&cat=22

[Operator]

^^^^ But I think he's looking for a custom Unitronic tune.

[audi5574]

I called APR and basically was told tough luck. This is the reason I started this thread. I don't understand why everyone thinks APR is a god or something. I just wish they had a downloader of some sort. Like many of the diesel tuners you can upgrade and change software at anytime. I am not looking for something for nothing but the APR dealer network sucks for the most part charge a hundred dollars for a download please thats just a rip off but if we had the downloader with all the options of test pipe, HFC, HFP, stage 1, 2, or 3. Now we would have something no more going back to the shitty local APR dealer and get charged another 100 for the download.

[VZWalex]

I called APR and basically was told tough luck. This is the reason I started this thread. I don't understand why everyone thinks APR is a god or something. I just wish they had a downloader of some sort. Like many of the diesel tuners you can upgrade and change software at anytime. I am not looking for something for nothing but the APR dealer network sucks for the most part charge a hundred dollars for a download please thats just a rip off but if we had the downloader with all the options of test pipe, HFC, HFP, stage 1, 2, or 3. Now we would have something no more going back to the shitty local APR dealer and get charged another 100 for the download.

wow that sucks that they don't do transfers anymore ..... I think s partial credit system would be a good thing for them to retain customers .. at this point it gives customers an open window to go with another software company.

[Operator]

Still don't understand why some shops charge for the flash. That's not on APR though. Let us know on the B7 forum how the BSR unit works for you, I know you'll be off in A5 land, but I'm curious.

[vdubjetta02]

you are getting a quality well known, well researched/developed tune on a LUXURY car specified to your exact model, this is not some jap car or a truck.... and you guys are complaining about $600.... wow

You bought an Audi, not a honda

[bblume]

hey...if you had sirius you could transfer that...maybe that will make you feel better?

[Sales@RAI]

Ummm, yeah it basically is. Unless your car has to be flashed by setting the ECU in write mode, there's almost no labor involved in flashing a car with software from any of the major tuners. It's APR (and others) method of delivery that makes it "impossible" to use a flashloader-type device.

If you actually knew how it works you would understand what I meant.

[jimrobbington]

It is totally up to the shop wether or not they charge for the install or not. Find a better shop. I once fried the ecu in my jetta, and with a little pleading, REVO gave me a completely new tune for free. But it was going in the very same car. I do agree that your tune should hold some value though. Someone else's point was spot on. If there is no worth, and you have to pay full price, it is all too easy to try out another company.

Your only choice is to swap ecus with another car that wants to be chipped.

[Keith@APR]

We allow warranty transfers of our ECU Upgrades from one car to the other if it meets the following criteria:

Same Chassis, Same Engine, Same EMS Version = $150

We will bend this policy for those that have Same Engine, Same EMS Version = $150 if they are a loyal customer, i.e. have purchased hardware for both vehicles from us too or this is their 3rd car with APR, APR Dealer recommendation, etc.

In the case of the OP, the B7 A4 is a 2.0T FSI with ME9. The A5 is a B8 with a 2.0 TFSI (Valve Lift Engine) with MED17.5.

There is no way that the B7 A4 software is even the least bit compatible with his A5. The ECU Upgrade for the A5 and other MED17.5 2.0TFSI Valve Lift engines has over $250,000 worth of specific R&D that is not amortized over the sales of what engine and ems is found in the B7 A4 he owned previously.

In the case of this client, you have think of his A4 as a PC and his A5 as a Mac or vice versa and he wants his version of Microsoft Office to work on both without paying for both versions.

[R1NSE]

We allow warranty transfers of our ECU Upgrades from one car to the other if it meets the following criteria:

Same Chassis, Same Engine, Same EMS Version = $150

We will bend this policy for those that have Same Engine, Same EMS Version = $150 if they are a loyal customer, i.e. have purchased hardware for both vehicles from us too or this is their 3rd car with APR, APR Dealer recommendation, etc.

In the case of the OP, the B7 A4 is a 2.0T FSI with ME9. The A5 is a B8 with a 2.0 TFSI (Valve Lift Engine) with MED17.5.

There is no way that the B7 A4 software is even the least bit compatible with his A5. The ECU Upgrade for the A5 and other MED17.5 2.0TFSI Valve Lift engines has over $250,000 worth of specific R&D that is not amortized over the sales of what engine and ems is found in the B7 A4 he owned previously.

In the case of this client, you have think of his A4 as a PC and his A5 as a Mac or vice versa and he wants his version of Microsoft Office to work on both without paying for both versions.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought he wanted to sell the APR tune to somebody else, not put it in his A5.

[MMMB00ST_A4]

OP wants to sell his APR'd ECU. Transferring it within the same chassis/engine code is not a problem. Getting the ecu from the person you sell the APR'd ECU to, again, is no problem. IMMO needs to be removed from the ECU and recoded for the car(I believe), which is also relatively inexpensive. Ultimately, whether APR decides to offer some sort of discount on a new tune for your B8 or not, is up to them.

We allow warranty transfers of our ECU Upgrades from one car to the other if it meets the following criteria:

Same Chassis, Same Engine, Same EMS Version = $150

We will bend this policy for those that have Same Engine, Same EMS Version = $150 if they are a loyal customer, i.e. have purchased hardware for both vehicles from us too or this is their 3rd car with APR, APR Dealer recommendation, etc.

In the case of the OP, the B7 A4 is a 2.0T FSI with ME9. The A5 is a B8 with a 2.0 TFSI (Valve Lift Engine) with MED17.5.

There is no way that the B7 A4 software is even the least bit compatible with his A5. The ECU Upgrade for the A5 and other MED17.5 2.0TFSI Valve Lift engines has over $250,000 worth of specific R&D that is not amortized over the sales of what engine and ems is found in the B7 A4 he owned previously.

In the case of this client, you have think of his A4 as a PC and his A5 as a Mac or vice versa and he wants his version of Microsoft Office to work on both without paying for both versions.

Keith. Based on OP's first post, I did not conclude that he was asking for you guys to "switch" files to his B8 free of charge. He was just under the impression that he is "stuck" with the tune on his B7 ECU, and can not transfer it within the same (B7, 2.0T FSI) platform. This is how I understood his initial argument...

[blacka4]

In the case of this client, you have think of his A4 as a PC and his A5 as a Mac or vice versa and he wants his version of Microsoft Office to work on both without paying for both versions.

excellent compairson Keith...