Bad racket from ESP

[ak-s4]

Car:
2005 B6 S4, 62k

Background:
I've been out having fun in the snow and ice and of course have the ESP turned off all the time. Before I purchased the car, I researched the ESP behavior and was already expecting the ESP to automatically engage even when off. The requirements for this were you apply the brakes and the computer believes you are way out of control. So as long as I keep my foot in it, I can go crazy sideways even at 70MPH and it doesn't care. But tap the brakes and it immediately takes control.

Problem:
Ok, so I know what the ABS sounds like under braking, I know what the ABS sounds like when it grabs a wheel (open diff, yada, yada), but WHERE IN THE WORLD is that racket coming from when the ESP engages under braking?? Every time it happens, I can feel and hear a horrible snapping sound. I don't remember exactly, but I don't think it matters if the clutch is in or out.

It has me worried! Is it normal? If not, what is most likely the problem and is it going to demolish my JHM S/C kit fund???

In advance, thanks very much.

[ak-s4]

Maybe Torsen diff?? Anybody??

[dparm]

ESP does not engage when turned off. ABS will still engage but there will be no traction or stability management at all.

We are lucky in that the button in our cars literally means "OFF" and not "SORT OF OFF".

ABS sound is going to be a loud crunching noise. You can feel it in the pedal. The only sounds the center diff (Torsen) will make is if the wheel is at-lock and you are going very slow.

[SquiddyB6S4]

We are lucky in that the button in our cars literally means "OFF" and not "SORT OF OFF".

Actually, you bring up a good point. There are SO many great sports cars out there that just aren't much fun because you can't play like you want to. I didn't think about this when I made the decision to buy my S4, but you make a valid argument for keeping my S4 even if its engine does happen to go take a shit at some point.

[BrianL]

Compared to my two previous cars I drove in winter (05 STI/NO stability/traction control anything, 08 STI traction off, stability on/both off), I'd say the ESP on the S4 in 'off' is more like 80% off.

[dparm]

Compared to my two previous cars I drove in winter (05 STI/NO stability/traction control anything, 08 STI traction off, stability on/both off), I'd say the ESP on the S4 in 'off' is more like 80% off.

Why do you say that? I have taken my car ice racing and road racing and not once has it intervened while the car was skidding. It is a true 'defeat' button.

[SquiddyB6S4]

Why do you say that? I have taken my car ice racing and road racing and not once has it intervened while the car was skidding. It is a true 'defeat' button.

Well, I haven't taken mine racing, but I can say that with ESP "off", the car will slide all over the friggin place if you push it too hard. Mostly pesky understeer, though I've had the tail slip just a bit exactly once. And I was dicking around in a grass field once, turned off the ESP and gunned it just to see what the car would do, and I got one hell of a slick powerslide out of her

[ak-s4]

The ESP is not fully off, the computer steps in if you are very far out of control and apply the brakes. It also applies the brakes to a specific wheel if that wheel spins way out of control compared to the other wheels, since the diffs are open.

The sound is not the ABS, it almost reminds me of a limited-slip diff or posi unit. Like plates locking together then unlocking. I also can feel something in the steering wheel.

Well, I guess I will just wait until whatever it is breaks.

[dparm]

The ESP is not fully off, the computer steps in if you are very far out of control and apply the brakes. It also applies the brakes to a specific wheel if that wheel spins way out of control compared to the other wheels, since the diffs are open.

Then your ESP system is weird, because mine absolutely does not do that. Like I said, I've taken it racing and done tons of donuts and fishtails in the snow...it never once got in the way.

I'm almost wondering if it's a power steering issue. You should not be able to feel ESP/4WD in your wheel.

[SquiddyB6S4]

the computer steps in if you are very far out of control and apply the brakes.

Yes, at that point I would imagine that the ABS would try to step in and straighten the car out.

[ak-s4]

Then your ESP system is weird, because mine absolutely does not do that. Like I said, I've taken it racing and done tons of donuts and fishtails in the snow...it never once got in the way.

I'm almost wondering if it's a power steering issue. You should not be able to feel ESP/4WD in your wheel.

Yes, I can do donuts and etc, but when I touch the brake pedal, it activates.

[JimmyBones]

There are two settings to the ESP. The first which most people use is pushing the button and the ESP light comes on the dash solid. That setting will let you have some fun but will still intervene if you get about 50% sideways.

To get the second ESP setting you press the ESP button and hold it for like five or six seconds. The ESP light will come on the dash and when it goes off everything is turned off. A good way to check if you are in the second setting is to push the ESP button again because the light will stay off. The only way to get the ESP to come back on when you went to the second setting is to turn the vehicle off and pull the key out then restart. Trust me with the ESP fully off in the second setting you are on your own and there is no help so be careful.

[J0HN_R1]

The sound is not the ABS, it almost reminds me of a limited-slip diff or posi unit. Like plates locking together then unlocking. I also can feel something in the steering wheel...

To me, it kinda sounds like a suspension component might be gone, and when you're sliding sideways across the snow/ice it's causing them to chatter.

But let us know if you find out...

[ak-s4]

There are two settings to the ESP. The first which most people use is pushing the button and the ESP light comes on the dash solid. That setting will let you have some fun but will still intervene if you get about 50% sideways.

To get the second ESP setting you press the ESP button and hold it for like five or six seconds. The ESP light will come on the dash and when it goes off everything is turned off. A good way to check if you are in the second setting is to push the ESP button again because the light will stay off. The only way to get the ESP to come back on when you went to the second setting is to turn the vehicle off and pull the key out then restart. Trust me with the ESP fully off in the second setting you are on your own and there is no help so be careful.

Do you know if that also disables the ability of the system to grab a spinning wheel? AKA, the electronic differential portion. Thanks for the info, I didn't know about that second ESP setting, so I'll have to try it out.

[x X CLoud X x]

learned something new about the S4 as well, gotta test this out

[Tugboatguy]

There are two settings to the ESP. The first which most people use is pushing the button and the ESP light comes on the dash solid. That setting will let you have some fun but will still intervene if you get about 50% sideways.

To get the second ESP setting you press the ESP button and hold it for like five or six seconds. The ESP light will come on the dash and when it goes off everything is turned off. A good way to check if you are in the second setting is to push the ESP button again because the light will stay off. The only way to get the ESP to come back on when you went to the second setting is to turn the vehicle off and pull the key out then restart. Trust me with the ESP fully off in the second setting you are on your own and there is no help so be careful.

Fully disabling the ESP only applies to the RS4, the B6-7 S4's and A4's ESP can only be partially disabled. When the ESP is fully disabled by pressing and holding it, instead of the ESP light being on it stays on and flashes. this is to warn you that the ESP is completely disabled. I believe all 2009 and up North American Audi's can be fully disabled ?

[SquiddyB6S4]

How do you know it only disables partially? I have done a donut in mine. Pretty sure ESP wouldn't let that happen if it weren't really and truly off. What part of it stays on? I mean, I expect ABS to stay on no matter what, though a switch in line with one of the wheel sensors would give you a nice safety for racing purposes . . .

[ak-s4]

So to report back, on a B6 S4, pressing and holding the ESP button until the light goes out causes the ESP to be ON permanently until you turn the car off and back on. So there is no way to turn it off completely. Although the other day when I was out goofing around half asleep with the ESP off and jumped over the median, the system completely disabled itself (even ABS) until I shut down and restarted. Just to clarify, the car handles very well and I never lost control, I just went a little wide on the turn while power sliding and went over the curb. ;(

[dparm]

How do you know it only disables partially? I have done a donut in mine. Pretty sure ESP wouldn't let that happen if it weren't really and truly off. What part of it stays on? I mean, I expect ABS to stay on no matter what, though a switch in line with one of the wheel sensors would give you a nice safety for racing purposes . . .

Yeah I dunno, I'm in agreement with you Jason. My button fully defeats it. I can do donuts until the tires explode or powerslide for a hundred yards.

It would not surprise me if the S4's system is programmed differently from the A4's.

[SquiddyB6S4]

Actually, I'm sort of in love with the ESP, personally. I mean yeah, I turn it off when I see a light turn yellow and I need to make a turn, but my last sports car had no stability control or ABS. The latter was fine, as it stopped like unholy hell anyway (and threshold braking is a learned skill), but I ended up removing the wipers and associated stuff because of one day in the rain. This thread just reminded me of this incident.

RWD, light, and powerful with 6MT: Up just a tiny bit of incline, sitting as first car at the light to turn left, but on a big intersection, so my wheels weren't turned yet. Put it in first, slowly let clutch out, spin. Not moving. Laugh a little, let off, shift to second just for shits and giggles. Spin. Okay, now it's just funny. Shift, third. Still not moving, speedo says ~30mph. Sure, fourth. Just starting to move, then starts moving quickly and almost before I could blink I was sideways and stopped in the middle of the intersection (in a spin, both feet in). Back to first, carrying on like I don't want a $500 fine . . .

[dparm]

Our ESP is a tad intrusive. Or maybe I'm still used to my old S2000 that was on rails. :-)

[Tugboatguy]

Yup, looks like I'm way wrong. I actually had a look at my manual, it says that if you tap the button so that the light just flashes just the Traction control is turned off. If you press the button till the light stays on, Traction control and Yaw control are both off.

[SquiddyB6S4]

Yup, looks like I'm way wrong. I actually had a look at my manual, it says that if you tap the button so that the light just flashes just the Traction control is turned off. If you press the button till the light stays on, Traction control and Yaw control are both off.

I assume that by "yaw control" you mean the so-called "active differentials" i.e. using the brakes to control individual wheelspin. Still not sure how much of that the car actually does, but I assume it's not much.

[dparm]

Traction control stops wheel spin. Yaw control keeps the car traveling in a straight line.

[BigChiefS4]

That's interesting. Very interesting. When I bought my B7 S4 last year, I decided to see how well the ESP kept the car in a straight line.

We got 4-5 inches here in Minneapolis. Most of it was still on the road. From a dead stop with ESP on, I gave it about 3/4 pedal while accelerating through the gears (6MT). I could hear the ESP kicking in on various wheels to keep them from spinning. The car stayed in a straight line and would accelerate as much as I could get traction.

At the next stoplight, I hit the ESP button once (I didn't know about the push-and-hold part). I accelerated the same way from a dead stop. Let's just say it's a good thing that nobody behind me could accelerate as fast as me because my a$$ was all over the place. My S4 was swerving left and right and my rear end was always trying to pass the front. I let up on the gas to get straightened out. Even with partial throttle, the back of the car wanted to pass the front of the car. I attribute that to the 60/40 rear torque bias, but I gotta say, without ESP, it would take a LOT of work to keep this car going in a straight line with heavy snow on the roads.

FWIW, I was running Michelin Alpin A/S tires, which are horrible in the snow. This year I switched to to Dunlop WinterSport 3D's.

[WinterRunner]

Only the RS4 has a fully defeatable, 2 stage ESP, the A/S only disables some of the systems.. I have owned both cars, this is fact.