Engine Carnage - Need to find head - photos

[poneman]

Hi All, I come on AZ all the time but unfortunately haven't had much too interesting to post. Well, early Sunday my engine decided to give me something interesting... As you can see from the photo link below, my #3 exhaust valve decided it didn't want to be so confined anymore and tried escaping through the top of the piston. Strangely, when it happened it was rather unimpressive sounding. I was on a leisurely drive back from getting morning coffee for me a the wifey and it just popped going up a hill on my road, then just a CEL and ticking/buzzing coming from the engine bay. When I tried to restart, I knew it was either a rod or Tbelt snapped.

Photos:




... so after 2-3 hours of disassembly it looks like it's time for a new/used head, pistons, rods etc. I was planning to redo the bottom end for BT, but how far I go now it depends on how much I can pick up a decent head for. The car had a 05 head put on it before I bought it when the TBelt snapped. Dealer gave me a decent warranty for the age so I wasn't too worried. I guess the 05 head wasn't in that great after all.

Still trying to ponder what exactly caused it - possible that valve stuck open, prior damage?, the car heard me talking about BT and decided to accelerate the inevitable .

Any advice is welcomed, and if anyone knows of any "GOOD" machine shops in upstate NY (Albany-Saratoga) area, the ones I've used before here suck and will never touch this engine. Ex: when they think .002" = .020" for piston clearance... it's a sign to go elsewhere. Also, if there are any good heads out there that need a good home PM me.

Possible plan:

Used 03-05 head
Integrated Engineering Piston/Rod kit ( was going to go 2.0l, but since this is unplanned I'll probably have to pass right now since the need for head)
Gaskets & Seals
Timing Belt
Bore and/or Hone (still have to measure clearance, but no major damage in bore that .5mm bore wouldn't correct

I can't post photos yet, but I'll save all the photos and try to do a write up once I can.

[diagnosticator]

It's not unknown for a valve head to separate from the valve stem if there was a material defect in the valve. It happens occasionally.

[Dan[FN]6262]

Avatar material there











**********why are the intake ports on your head gasket matched to large port, but you have a small port intake manifold?

[poneman]

Hmm... thanks for pointing that out, didn't even notice that last night. The place I bought the car from installed the head before I bought it due to TB failure, looks like they must have used the wrong gasket. I noticed that many of the OE bolts must have been misplaced when they did it because there were a bunch of cheap hardware store bolts used for various brackets, valve cover etc.

[Exanimas]

Hmm... thanks for pointing that out, didn't even notice that last night. The place I bought the car from installed the head before I bought it due to TB failure, looks like they must have used the wrong gasket. I noticed that many of the OE bolts must have been misplaced when they did it because there were a bunch of cheap hardware store bolts used for various brackets, valve cover etc.

That sucks. I'm guessing there's no chance they'll warranty it?

[poneman]

The warranty ran out a while ago, I got 12mo/12k but it ended back in the spring. I am however going to try to persuade them to help search for a new head for me and hopefully they know a good machine shop.

[JoshDub]

That sucks man. But i hear the AEB head flows nicely

[Scotty@Advanced]

It's possible the head you got at one time in the past could had bent a valve ever so slightly, sometimes this happens and the valve still seals, however as it flexes when it seats eventually the stem will fatigue and fail.

That sucks man. But i hear the AEB head flows nicely

Yes it does however it's not a direct drop on. You need to use the AEB manifold and delete the SAI system as the AEB has no provisions for the SAI one way valve. There are some other differences but it can be done.

[kneel]

sent you a pm. i have a motor and parts if interested

[DenverNoob]

you are prob gonna have a host of issues beyond the head. I would take a REALLY close look at the cyl walls to ensure there isn't so much as a nick, and if there is I would really consider taking it for a good hone at a great block shop, assuming they don't tell you the block is effed. Valves have a tendency to bounce around a bit before they stop moving, and if that is the case you will just end up with more issues down the road. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but not taking that step could increase the cost 3-fold in the very near future.

[dougyfresh]

why do people link photos to Facebook?

Use a proper hosting service and use the [img] tag please so we can all see them.

[poneman]

Thanks, I checked the bore, a few small nicks but I plan to pull the block for at least a hone, probably go .5mm over for the JE piston set. I'll have the machine shop check it out before I order the correct piston oversize.

[DenverNoob]

Thanks, I checked the bore, a few small nicks but I plan to pull the block for at least a hone, probably go .5mm over for the JE piston set. I'll have the machine shop check it out before I order the correct piston oversize.

As long as you are ok after the bore and polish, you are good to go. the only hangup would be if the marks go a bit further than the swipe. My current block got a clean swipe and came from a similar situation and all is well with it.

[poneman]

why do people link photos to Facebook?

Use a proper hosting service and use the [img] tag please so we can all see them.

...sorry wasn't quite awake to figure it out this AM

[102487thedude]

try to get a used aeb head you can find them foer a few hundred used just shop around.

[poneman]

Well, found a head..thanks Kneel. Talked to the machine shop this morning to measure up the bores before I order piston/rod set and will have them go through the head. One question for you guys that have had heads reworked... have you replaced the cam chain tensioner if the head is in otherwise good condition? I'm going to at least have it cleaned, surfaced, new exhaust valves, all seals. The tensioner assy. is $$ so I would prefer to keep either the one in the new head or use the one from the damaged head. The shop likes to replace them on any 1.8 head job. Thoughts?

[PRY4SNO]

Not sure about the cam chain tensioner but a tuner I trust advised me to replace my oil pump in my situation (eerily similar to yours other than some details) as cheap insurance.

[poneman]

So now that my block is back at the machine shop... for the second time [more details below] and the car has been taking up valuable lift space in my garage I figured I'd post some updates and hopefully some useful info. during the build of the engine. So on to the fun....

First thanks to Kneel for supplying the donor AMB head, saved me a lot of searching and dealing with shady yards.

So, engine is out, disassembled and the parts list:

used head (Kneel)
JE Pistons 81.5mm
IE rifle drilled rods
Supertech Iconel Exhaust Valves (single groove)
Rod & Main Bearings
Some timing parts (belt, damper) old stuff only had about 15k on it
Oil Pump & chain tensioner
Gaskets, seals & o-rings galore




Found a local machine shop that has rebuilt a lot of 1.8t heads & blocks. After BSing with the owner a bit I found out that they are one of the main suppliers of remanufactured heads/blocks for parts stores in the Northeast. Had a little tour and they are very well equipped and knowledgeable. Look up Hunts Machine if you're in the capital area. Basically had them do a complete job on the head (clean/surface/valves), bore & hone the block, check & polish the crankshaft.

Got the parts back on 11/15, the head was definitely a few notches above what I've seen come out of other shops in the area. Nice n shiny...




I was able to save some $$$ by installing the cams and bleeding the lifters myself. Now here is where I found some interesting info. on the lifters that I have not seen here on AZ. Not sure how correct it is, but please chime in if there is alternate info available. The shop highly advised that based on remanufacturing many of the 1.8t heads, that I should bleed ALL of the valve lifters down. While the Bentley states just to leave them under valve spring pressure for 30 minutes, the owner of the shop said he has personally seen lifters stick pumped up too much and hold a valve off the seat causing you-know-what. I figured for the 2 hours I spent doing it... better safe than sorry ; )


Procedure is on VWVortex somewhere but abbreviated version without pics is: slam lifter upside down on a piece of wood until inside cup comes out. It is sort of a PTA, but you get the hang of it after 5 or so. It is held in with a c-clip and tempered so you cannot grab with pliers. Once you get the inside cup out, pull "top" out and pour out the oil... there is a spring inside.. don't lose it. Mine were in surprisingly good shape so I didn't bother washing all of them in the parts washer, just kept them on a clean cloth away from dust-grit etc. When assembling, I did one at a time to not mix up parts. Since the bore tolerance regulates bleed down rate, I'm sure they are graded when assembled at the Mfg. for a precise fit. After the oil is mostly out, you put the inner cup together again and relieve air pressure inside by gently depressing the check ball with a pick or small tool.



So I skimped on some pics, but basically assembly went straightforward. Had consistent .051mm clearance on all main & rod bearings- not bad for close to 90k. I splurged for a real ring grinder from some online dealer in Michigan or Ohio for like 30 bucks, well worth it. Set according to JE sheet. Got everything torqued correctly (big crank bolt is insanely tight to get that 90 deg. index)

Now for the bad part.... got the timing belt all set-up, went to turn the engine over with a socket, got 90 deg. from TDC and F***, metal-to-metal stopping rotation at 11:45pm.... : (
At first I thought I had royally screwed up the timing-hitting valve...nope. The pistons at BDC were only about half way up the stroke where it was stopping. Pulled the oil pump, timing belt, center two rods, to try to eliminate possibilities. After looking around for a bit I caught a glimpse of something that made my stomach drop... metal sticking out of the side of #1 cyl. FAIL! The bolt from the lower hole in the timing belt damper cylinder punched right into the cylinder. I did not sleep well that night... thought I put the wrong bolt in somehow from another ziploc bag and killed my block.



After rifling through my ziploc's, I've since found that all (5) bolts on the front were wrong when I took them out. Two for the tensioner, and three for the water pump. Whatever monkey at the dealer I bought the car from did the timing belt last, must have lost the bolts and put in some that "looked" right. They were about 3mm too long and had previously bottomed out in the holes cracking the cast... but not enough to punch through. When I torqued them again to spec, they just pushed the metal right out the back didn't even give any indication when tightening them. So... now I'll forever be paranoid about blind hole depths! Now the block is back at the shop to get a sleeve so I don't have to start over with another block. I'll update with some more assembly pics once it's back next week. TBC.....

[A4SoftWalker]

This is what is scary about motor builds. I want to learn how to do this myself and then when I do it by the book with no half-assing there will be nothing for me to worry about.

Hope ur re-sleeving comes out right and u are able to find all those missing parts.

[Dan[FN]6262]

dude, that's just horrible. hopefully it turnout alright

[nofearhawk]

Damn, sad dude about the block. Didn't know the walls were that thin though that 3mm would bust through the wall like that, makes me paranoid about my block thats getting bored 83mm.

At this point I'd be super paranoid about the block and any other problems that might pop up.

On another point, that head looks so nice.

[3vom]

Damn dude... You have had not much luck.
More pics of sleeve once it's done please! I am building a new head this coming week, need to start picking out parts tonight though.

[kneel]

dude that sucks. glad i could help out with my old head. i still have the bottom end, if the sleeving doesnt work out. Just hit me up.

[iamshayan]

damn sounds like you need some good head :)

[poneman]

Damn, sad dude about the block. Didn't know the walls were that thin though that 3mm would bust through the wall like that, makes me paranoid about my block thats getting bored 83mm.

At this point I'd be super paranoid about the block and any other problems that might pop up.

On another point, that head looks so nice.

Yeah, I don't think it's actually that thin where the bolt went through. I think the water jacket ends about 1/2" above that area. What I think happened is that when the monkey before must have torqued the hell out of the bolt it cracked the cast like a crater shape. There is probably around .25" or more of material between the bottom of the hole and the cylinder wall. Once you get a hairline crack in cast though, it pretty easy to finish it off.

[poneman]

damn sounds like you need some good head :)

Indeed!

[poneman]

This is what is scary about motor builds. I want to learn how to do this myself and then when I do it by the book with no half-assing there will be nothing for me to worry about.

Hope ur re-sleeving comes out right and u are able to find all those missing parts.

Parts on the way thanks to VagCat & ECS search feature. It's also handy to have Germanautoparts.com warehouse about 15min away ; )
The build never worried me, it's what other "techs" have done previously to me. Building the top/bottom end isn't really that hard... just have the Bentley and read it, have patience, keep all the parts neat-clean-organized, and measure everything. I don't think I could have avoided this unless I measured every bolt and blind hole with calipers.

[poneman]

Well, the block is back with a new sleeve and I got everything assembled and timed between a couple hours Fri. and a couple tonight. Check out the photos of the sleeve work, I'm satisfied. It's a dry sleeve and goes about 1/4" from the bottom of the original casting. If you weren't looking for it, you would probably never know it was there. They even got the final hone .0015" of how it was so I didn't even have to regrind the rings. To get the one cylinder sleeved, bored, honed, decked, cleaned-again... about $200... better than starting over on a new block IMO.

Bottom view of cylinder:


Top Deck:


Close up, you can see the slight seam...


I'll post some more assembly photos and stuff tomorrow... time for sleep!

[pape]

Damn, sad dude about the block. Didn't know the walls were that thin though that 3mm would bust through the wall like that, makes me paranoid about my block thats getting bored 83mm.

At this point I'd be super paranoid about the block and any other problems that might pop up.

On another point, that head looks so nice.

here is 83mm je with .0045 wall

[Sales@RAI]

I have an AEB head fs with intake manifold

[poneman]

All back together and running good with no leaks, or codes. I will however have to get used to the JE piston slap noise that wasn't there before... it sounds like one of my quad engines when cold. Here are a few more photos of the assembly which went well this time. I did find MORE bolts that were wrong though ( oh yes.. I checked them all this time ), the 3 bolts that hold the combi valve to the head were only holding it on by like 3-4 threads. I'm really amazed that it didn't either have more leaks before or have parts falling off the engine due to incorrect hardware... f**'n used car dealer mechanics.

Crank, #1 piston installed, Oil pump....


All the bolts marked w/ paint pen as torqued... brain doesn't always work well at 10PM....


I made a "custom" tool at work with some scap flat plate & pipe. The first handle bent with the crazy torque you get when getting the +90deg. turn on the crank bolt so I TIG'd on a new 1" pipe handle that didn't. The tool worked very well for under an hour of "government job" fab work.



All timed up..


Engine went in easy, the lift is the best garage toy yet. Took it easy for the first 50 miles or so, drained the oil tonight... man was it shiny. Tomorrow going to get my free recall coilpacks to top off the build. Now...to start working on the BT....

[CoreyRS]

beautiful

[ZimbutheMonkey]

You wouldn't happen to have that head kicking around anymore would you? Reason I ask is that I've got access to a TIG welder and I'd like to fab up a manifold or two. I have a spare block, but I need a head just to bolt on to make an accurate mock up. I've got an AEB but I assume that the head should still bolt down in it's place correct? Anyway, let me know, I'm not in a huge hurry and I may try and pick up local, but I figured I may as well put some feelers out there.

[Sales@RAI]

I like the sleeve thing, never seen that done. The JE slap is probably because the piston>wall clearances were too high.

[poneman]

I like the sleeve thing, never seen that done. The JE slap is probably because the piston>wall clearances were too high.

Yeah, the sleeving was sweet. Saved me a lot of $$ rather than starting over. In doing some research, a lot of Subaru guys do it to go big bore or just for strength. The sleeves are usually made of ductile iron that is spun cast in a centrifuge.... It is a lot denser than straight cast and has less imperfections. I checked the piston clearance and the shop did it right on with JE specs for the bore size. I've always known forged pistons to make noise cold from building quad/bike engines. Is it not common on the 1.8t?

[poneman]

You wouldn't happen to have that head kicking around anymore would you? Reason I ask is that I've got access to a TIG welder and I'd like to fab up a manifold or two. I have a spare block, but I need a head just to bolt on to make an accurate mock up. I've got an AEB but I assume that the head should still bolt down in it's place correct? Anyway, let me know, I'm not in a huge hurry and I may try and pick up local, but I figured I may as well put some feelers out there.

Sure do, hit me up after the holidays, time is a little short for the next few weeks. I'm probably going to try to sell the cams, lifters etc, but if you only want it for mockup I'll strip everything else out. I'm pretty sure the AEB uses the same bolt pattern so it should be fine.

[A4SoftWalker]

Yeah, the sleeving was sweet. Saved me a lot of $$ rather than starting over. In doing some research, a lot of Subaru guys do it to go big bore or just for strength. The sleeves are usually made of ductile iron that is spun cast in a centrifuge.... It is a lot denser than straight cast and has less imperfections. I checked the piston clearance and the shop did it right on with JE specs for the bore size. I've always known forged pistons to make noise cold from building quad/bike engines. Is it not common on the 1.8t?

I haven't heard of anyone having noises, but I know the JE pistions are made to expand - hence the notches providing room for the valves not to make contact.