>>>***R.A.I. Motorsport: SNOW PERFORMANCE WATER/METH GROUP BUY!!***<<<

[[email protected].]

The BEST bang for your buck on any turbo/supercharged engine!

Most of you all already know what this is and what it does. Highly atomized water/methanol mix is injected into the air inlet tract to DRAMATICALLY cool air and raise the octane of the fuel mixture entering your engine.

Simply put: YOU WILL GET MORE HORSEPOWER. YOU WILL GET MORE TORQUE. YOU WILL LOVE IT!

On my personal turbo car i've seen an additional 7~10* or ignition timing at 25psi of boost.

I want you all to reap this benefits so for a limited time only we are selling our Stage2 MAP kits at ROCK BOTTOM pricing! This is the LOWEST we are allowed to go.


PRICE:
$398.05(w/ BOOST based controller)
$407.55(w/ MAF based controller)
$685.00(Stage 3 kit W/advance boost AND injector duty referenced controller)




So lets get it rocking with 10 people ready to make more power!

1. Turbo_Joe :thumbup:
2. Primetime
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As added bonuses, customers will receive:

• One free nozzle bung for mounting to hose, aluminum, or steel piping!
• FREE SHIPPING IN THE CONTINENTAL U.S.
• 10% OFF Additional Accessories

[[email protected].]

additional pricing added...

[[email protected].]

get some!

[blkonblkS4]

hmmm....maybe you have the wrong forum. haha.

[Retsujou]

[

Simply put: YOU WILL GET MORE HORSEPOWER. YOU WILL GET MORE TORQUE. YOU WILL LOVE IT!

Yes, you will get all of that with a tune that actually properly exploits the properties of the new air flow. Especially once you get into the range of "faking" 100 Octane, no standard map on the ECU will be able to optimise for that nor do anything with it.

On a second note, are you also encouraging them to finally finish the Stage3 or Stage4 for IDC and MAF on the FSI engines?

[[email protected].]

hmmm....maybe you have the wrong forum. haha.

hmmm...now why would you think i have the wrong forum?

Yes, you will get all of that with a tune that actually properly exploits the properties of the new air flow. Especially once you get into the range of "faking" 100 Octane, no standard map on the ECU will be able to optimise for that nor do anything with it.

On a second note, are you also encouraging them to finally finish the Stage3 or Stage4 for IDC and MAF on the FSI engines?

You're partly correct. Consider what the engine does once heat soak sets in and outside temperatures elevate. Timing is pulled on a factory map. With W/M, whether you're tuned for it or not, gets rid of that pull. To extract the MOST however yes you need a tune or 100oct file.

Now as far as this "stage4"...good question. ;)

[RAudi Driver]

Will this help keep carbon at bay also?

[[email protected].]

Will this help keep carbon at bay also?

absolutely.

[DuncanC]

lol. Need sales that bad Quintin?

I'm not so sure that this kit would show any benefit on a S4 that isn't tuned for it. My feeling is that the power lost due to the fuel trim always being hunting for a correct value is going to be more than the power gained by the motor needing to pull back less timing. (even when heat soaked my car only pulls a couple of degrees of timing at torque peak, for most of the RPM range the timing correction factors are 0.)

And I'm not so sure its cool to say it will "absolutety" keep carbon at bay when I haven't seen any testing done to confirm. Lots of speculation has been done that the FSI motors would benefit from the meth washing away the carbon as it builds but I haven't seen any sort of testing done at all.

Great mod for the B5 and B8 guys who are over working the factory turbos/supercharger and causing the IAT to rise. But for the N/A guys I feel like this is just a cash grab. I'd love for somebody to do some runs down the quarter mile with the the system off and then on, on the same day. I'd honestly be happy to be wrong, anything to make this fat pig faster is great, but somebody reading this thread might think that you WILL GET MORE HP and MORE TORQUE... For a port injection 4.2 I think that may be BS.

[jfunkey]

lol. Need sales that bad Quintin?

I'm not so sure that this kit would show any benefit on a S4 that isn't tuned for it. My feeling is that the power lost due to the fuel trim always being hunting for a correct value is going to be more than the power gained by the motor needing to pull back less timing. (even when heat soaked my car only pulls a couple of degrees of timing at torque peak, for most of the RPM range the timing correction factors are 0.)

And I'm not so sure its cool to say it will "absolutety" keep carbon at bay when I haven't seen any testing done to confirm. Lots of speculation has been done that the FSI motors would benefit from the meth washing away the carbon as it builds but I haven't seen any sort of testing done at all.

Great mod for the B5 and B8 guys who are over working the factory turbos/supercharger and causing the IAT to rise. But for the N/A guys I feel like this is just a cash grab. I'd love for somebody to do some runs down the quarter mile with the the system off and then on, on the same day. I'd honestly be happy to be wrong, anything to make this fat pig faster is great, but somebody reading this thread might think that you WILL GET MORE HP and MORE TORQUE... For a port injection 4.2 I think that may be BS.

100% true.. Not having your car tuned for Methonal will RESULT IN A POWER LOSS and potential motor dammage.. The added methonal interfeers with your A/F readings and the cars injectors will pull back to compensate for it.. The result is a over lean mixture and possible dammage.

Methonal if tuned for can have benifits.. If not tuned for it will have dammaging results...

[[email protected].]

100% true.. Not having your car tuned for Methonal will RESULT IN A POWER LOSS and potential motor dammage.. The added methonal interfeers with your A/F readings and the cars injectors will pull back to compensate for it.. The result is a over lean mixture and possible dammage.

Methonal if tuned for can have benifits.. If not tuned for it will have dammaging results...

50% Incorrect. Methanol is a fuel. Your car will pull back injector duty to compensate because the extra fuel is no longer needed as the methanol is substituting for it. Guess what happens then? Your fuel mileage increases. Damage is not done becuase you STILL HAVE THE NECESSARY FUEL.

This has been proven time and time again through various makes/models/setups.

I made this thread to enlighten the B7 crowd and educate them as well as sell to them.

[jfunkey]

50% Incorrect. Methanol is a fuel. Your car will pull back injector duty to compensate because the extra fuel is no longer needed as the methanol is substituting for it. Guess what happens then? Your fuel mileage increases. Damage is not done becuase you STILL HAVE THE NECESSARY FUEL.

This has been proven time and time again through various makes/models/setups.

I made this thread to enlighten the B7 crowd and educate them as well as sell to them.

wow 100% wrong..

methonal has a 40% less mass jewels then standard petral. Its not the same class of fuel as petrol... methonal is more alachol. This means that you would need to add 40% more methonal to equal the same amount of fuel.

This means that a standard 14.7 in MEthonal is WAY WAY WAY lean and massivly unsafe dangerous and WILL dammage rings. its low energy content of 19.7 MJ/kg and stoichiometric air fuel ratio of 6.42:1 mean that fuel consumption (on volume or mass basis) will be higher than hydrocarbon fuels.

Educate your self before you post this kind of fauls information on the forums.. Then try doing reseach before you sell a product..

This has already been done before... There have been logs and dyno's showing methonal injection with no tune will loose hp on the B6/B7 S4's. This isn't a turbo car or a Me7 car where the methonal is an additive and the injectors stay on a set pattern.

I made this post to enlighten the B7 crowd and educate them as well as help them understnad what your trying to sell them and what they would have to do to make it work....Methonal is very close to E85 you can't just put E85 in your tank and hope for the best..

in short.. Adding Methonal injection and no tune will result in WAY WAY over lean conditions.. Its not safe or an additive for power. When you look at teh amount of methonal you need to use to add power your going to really do dammage to your motor due to lean conditions

[[email protected].]

wow 100% wrong..

methonal has a 40% less mass jewels then standard petral. Its not the same class of fuel as petrol... methonal is more alachol. This means that you would need to add 40% more methonal to equal the same amount of fuel.

This means that a standard 14.7 in MEthonal is WAY WAY WAY lean and massivly unsafe dangerous and WILL dammage rings. its low energy content of 19.7 MJ/kg and stoichiometric air fuel ratio of 6.42:1 mean that fuel consumption (on volume or mass basis) will be higher than hydrocarbon fuels.

Educate your self before you post this kind of fauls information on the forums.. Then try doing reseach before you sell a product..

This has already been done before... There have been logs and dyno's showing methonal injection with no tune will loose hp on the B6/B7 S4's. This isn't a turbo car or a Me7 car where the methonal is an additive and the injectors stay on a set pattern.

I made this post to enlighten the B7 crowd and educate them as well as help them understnad what your trying to sell them and what they would have to do to make it work....Methonal is very close to E85 you can't just put E85 in your tank and hope for the best..

in short.. Adding Methonal injection and no tune will result in WAY WAY over lean conditions.. Its not safe or an additive for power. When you look at teh amount of methonal you need to use to add power your going to really do dammage to your motor due to lean conditions

show me.

[jfunkey]

show me.

OMG educate your self..

The standard Fuel Raito for stoichiometric air fuel ratio is 14.7
The standard Fuel Raito for methonal stoichiometric air fuel ratio of 6.42:1...

Unless you change the tune your target stoichiometric air fuel ratio for standard fuel is set at 14.7.. when you add methonal This needs to get changed as you can clearly see the amont of methonal needed to be safe at stoichiometric is over 40% different then standard fuel.. SO the more methonal you add the more dangerous it is.. unless you change the tune

What does this mean.. It means that adding a fuel with 40% less mass will create a lean condition... But lets go further.. Your not adding 100% methonal.. Why would you...You adding methonal on a N/A app in homes of adding octain boost... Well... Methonal is more expencive then race gas but lets stick on point.. You add a 50/50 mix of methonal and water..

The result is your trading petrol for methonal and water.. If you were using stright methonal you would need to be able to replace the fuel you eliminated at a 2:1 raito.. being that your using methonal and water you need to use a 3:1 raito.. what happens without adjusting the tune is a 1:1 ratio.. given that methonal requires 40-50% more to equal the same.. you can see where this is going

So now your replaceing standard petral with a lesser fuel (methonal) and water...

I really shouldn't have to show you this it would be nice if you did your home work before you decided to sell something.. People come to you for service its best you know what your selling and how it works before you tell people things that you don't know.. SO now your edicated

more

Preliminary Facts Regarding Methanol

Methanol fuel is generally harder to set up for than gasoline, therefore CT recommend its use for experienced tuners only. If you are not proficient in jetting carburetors and evaluating engine performance then it is best to gain these experiences with gasoline first.

Methanol fuel is recommended for short duration racing only such as drag racing or short sprint racing, you will consume twice the amount of alcohol fuel for any given horsepower output when compared to gasoline, so the range of your fuel tank is basically cut in half.

[DuncanC]

Why would it be Jfunkey's job to educate you? You want to sell the thing. Your the vendor. I think it's on you to show us that a B6/B7 S4 can SAFELY make more power by using a MI kit.

What I have read leads me to believe he is right. On a B5 the computer doesn't track to A/F fast enough to cut the injector duty cycles when the meth fires up. On a B6/B7 the computer is right on top of it. You add meth, exhaust temps drop dramatically, O2 sensors see that cooler exhaust charge as being a result of being rich (normally if the exhaust temp was lower than expected it would mean that after all the oxygen has oxidized with fuel to create fire there was still some fuel left, that fuel was vaporized and the latent heat from the phase change took temp with it), so like any smart ECU it will pull back the fuel trim attempting to get the O2 sensors to read properly. Too bad that your car was injecting the right amount of gas, and now is injecting less, thus your lean, thus spot temps in your cylinder could be WAY high. MI is a fuel, but it also has a much lower stoichiometric ratio than gas and it has much more cooling power than gas, since the tune thinks it has control of all the fuel going in, and all that fuel is gas, it makes bad assumptions and leads to bad things.

EDIT:

Too late, looks like he already educated you.

[jfunkey]

Why would it be Jfunkey's job to educate you? You want to sell the thing. Your the vendor. I think it's on you to show us that a B6/B7 S4 can SAFELY make more power by using a MI kit.

What I have read leads me to believe he is right. On a B5 the computer doesn't track to A/F fast enough to cut the injector duty cycles when the meth fires up. On a B6/B7 the computer is right on top of it. You add meth, exhaust temps drop dramatically, O2 sensors see that cooler exhaust charge as being a result of being rich (normally if the exhaust temp was lower than expected it would mean that after all the oxygen has oxidized with fuel to create fire there was still some fuel left, that fuel was vaporized and the latent heat from the phase change took temp with it), so like any smart ECU it will pull back the fuel trim attempting to get the O2 sensors to read properly. Too bad that your car was injecting the right amount of gas, and now is injecting less, thus your lean, thus spot temps in your cylinder could be WAY high. MI is a fuel, but it also has a much lower stoichiometric ratio than gas and it has much more cooling power than gas, since the tune thinks it has control of all the fuel going in, and all that fuel is gas, it makes bad assumptions and leads to bad things.

EDIT:

Too late, looks like he already educated you.

Exactly my point..

Look [email protected]. I understand what your looking to do and how your looking at it.. in the end its impornant to know and state that your going to need more then just this kit to get anykind of gain or benifit.. Im not saying that if you figgure out the right jets and get a tune set for the car that there isn't going to be some possible bennifit.. Im just saying that this dosen't work the same on the B6/B7 cars as it would on a turbo car.. That along with the fuel issue ITs a big deal if people don't know what is going to happen if you put this on and don't tune the car..... there are threads on this and people have shown a power loss.. on N/A cars.. Ill see If I can dig any of them up

[[email protected].]

I said "show me" not EDUCATE me. I am VERY well aware the properties of methanol and how it relates/doesn't relate to gasoline. None the less it's nice to have all this info in this thread.

I'm gonna sum up a few points here keeping it brief but open for discussion...

1: Wideband Oxygen sensors whether OEM or Aftermarket are LAMBDA sensors. That's all they "see". You stated with meth, stoich = 6.5:1 and with gasoline, stoich = 14.7:1. Here's the dilemma; they both equal 1 lambda.

2: For a low boost car...sayyy 6psi, on a 8cyl with 380cc injectors (again hypothetical) You want the total spray of water/meth to be around 15% of the maximum total fuel injector flow at 3bar. You're running a 50/50 mixture of water/meth. The fuel injectors are running a good 80% duty, so about 2432cc/min. So you're only injecting about 182cc of meth into the system with another 182cc of water. So the meth is burned partially as a supplementary fuel but mainly is there to aid in the evaporation of the water. Well what happens to the water? We know it's not combustible so it doesn't break down. It merely slows the flame front (hence the "false" octane boost). Take away boost....that 15% requirement becomes even less.

3: EGT's...oh yes motronic and their wonderful EGT protection maps. I've had the pleasure of dealing with what happens when EGT's get too high but my a/f was good (12:1 til the map switched over). The ecu DUMPED fuel in well into the 10:1 range and sometimes 9:1. Well why were my EGT's so high at only 12psi? Timing...the timing retard i was getting was maxed out. The file i was given was wrong and had way too much timing. Well lets go the other direction...I've experienced on average a 2~300* drop with w/m in regards to EGTs. Did my ecu lean it out as a result? NO. To my o2's i was still meeting that .81 lambda or 12:1(gas) or 5.3:1(meth) and that's their primary job.

4: So this fancy w/m injection will damage my NA motor but not so much a boosted motor? Lets think for a moment...engines are basic air pumps right? How do we get more power out of them? More air. More fuel. What is a supercharger/turbocharger? A compressor of air. So if this w/m causes the ecu to lean out the mixture soooooooo dangerously...well I'd be crazy to add it to a turbo/supercharged car that already has great air/fuel and has more air being shoved into it as well! Right?

Ok and finally 5: show me one of the threads...I'm curious...in the meantime, I'll look too.

[drew]

i'll take two right after i purchase the pes supercharger

[Justincredible]

I said "show me" not EDUCATE me. I am VERY well aware the properties of methanol and how it relates/doesn't relate to gasoline. None the less it's nice to have all this info in this thread.

I'm gonna sum up a few points here keeping it brief but open for discussion...

1: Wideband Oxygen sensors whether OEM or Aftermarket are LAMBDA sensors. That's all they "see". You stated with meth, stoich = 6.5:1 and with gasoline, stoich = 14.7:1. Here's the dilemma; they both equal 1 lambda.

2: For a low boost car...sayyy 6psi, on a 8cyl with 380cc injectors (again hypothetical) You want the total spray of water/meth to be around 15% of the maximum total fuel injector flow at 3bar. You're running a 50/50 mixture of water/meth. The fuel injectors are running a good 80% duty, so about 2432cc/min. So you're only injecting about 182cc of meth into the system with another 182cc of water. So the meth is burned partially as a supplementary fuel but mainly is there to aid in the evaporation of the water. Well what happens to the water? We know it's not combustible so it doesn't break down. It merely slows the flame front (hence the "false" octane boost).

3: EGT's...oh yes motronic and their wonderful EGT protection maps. I've had the pleasure of dealing with what happens when EGT's get too high but my a/f was good (12:1 til the map switched over). The ecu DUMPED fuel in well into the 10:1 range and sometimes 9:1. Well why were my EGT's so high at only 12psi? Timing...the timing retard i was getting was maxed out. The file i was given was wrong and had way too much timing. Well lets go the other direction...I've experienced on average a 2~300* drop with w/m in regards to EGTs. Did my ecu lean it out as a result? NO. To my o2's i was still meeting that .81 lambda or 12:1(gas) or 5.3:1(meth) and that's their primary job.

4: So this fancy w/m injection will damage my NA motor but not so much a boosted motor? Lets think for a moment...engines are basic air pumps right? How do we get more power out of them? More air. More fuel. What is a supercharger/turbocharger? A compressor of air. So if this w/m causes the ecu to lean out the mixture soooooooo dangerously...well I'd be crazy to add it to a turbo/supercharged car that already has great air/fuel and has more air being shoved into it as well! Right?

Ok and finally 5: show me one of the threads...I'm curious...in the meantime, I'll look too.

WOW.. ommmmm. No..

1 no
2 were not talking boost. Its a N/A motor your using the app for.
3 The B6/B7's S4's have no EGT sensor
4 WOW.. No, it will damage any motor if not tuned for it, when needed. Your talking boost and the issue is the A/F mixture.

I have first hand experience with this and I Can tell you. Your loosing hp adding methanol to A B6/B7 S4 if its not tuned for it.

The target A/F for power on a N/A motor with standard fuel is 12.8
The target A/F for power on a N/A motor with methanol fuel is 5.1

In your ECU its set for standard fuel and standard fuel.. If we were to take your way of thinking. We could just go out and put E85 in our cars. Its 1000x better then adding methanol injection and it has 110 octane rating. It goes right in the tank you can get it at the pump. But it doesn't work like that. You need to adjust the target power A/F and Off power A/F to compensate for the methanol as its a much less power per unit.. have you ever tried doing what your talking about? Try it.. You will see I'm right. With no tuning your going to run your motor lean and cause damage. End of story.

In short the amount of methanol needed to make a difference on the octane rating would require you to get a tune as to not damage a car.

[Carlos Finighan]

Lets start with this

The BEST bang for your buck on any turbo/supercharged engine!
]

Then this

Yes, you will get all of that with a tune that actually properly exploits the properties of the new air flow. Especially once you get into the range of "faking" 100 Octane, no standard map on the ECU will be able to optimise for that nor do anything with it.
?

1: Wideband Oxygen sensors whether OEM or Aftermarket are LAMBDA sensors. That's all they "see". You stated with meth, stoich = 6.5:1 and with gasoline, stoich = 14.7:1. Here's the dilemma; they both equal 1 lambda.
.

and OMG Your not actually a tuner are you?

Lambda is a different target for each fuel. Its a clean burn ratio and the methanol target is too far out of the range set for the stock ECU. SO this isn't plug and play

[[email protected].]

WOW.. ommmmm. No..

1 no
2 were not talking boost. Its a N/A motor your using the app for.
3 The B6/B7's S4's have no EGT sensor
4 WOW.. No, it will damage any motor if not tuned for it, when needed. Your talking boost and the issue is the A/F mixture.

I have first hand experience with this and I Can tell you. Your loosing hp adding methanol to A B6/B7 S4 if its not tuned for it.

The target A/F for power on a N/A motor with standard fuel is 12.8
The target A/F for power on a N/A motor with methanol fuel is 5.1

In your ECU its set for standard fuel and standard fuel.. If we were to take your way of thinking. We could just go out and put E85 in our cars. Its 1000x better then adding methanol injection and it has 110 octane rating. It goes right in the tank you can get it at the pump. But it doesn't work like that. You need to adjust the target power A/F and Off power A/F to compensate for the methanol as its a much less power per unit.. have you ever tried doing what your talking about? Try it.. You will see I'm right. With no tuning your going to run your motor lean and cause damage. End of story.

In short the amount of methanol needed to make a difference on the octane rating would require you to get a tune as to not damage a car.

1: again everyone is missing the point... a/f ratio is a calculation from LAMBDA. They all go back to this. 1lambda is 1lambda regardless what the fuel. If you know optimum power is at 12:1 on gasoline. That equals roughly .81 lambda. That equals 5.3:1 on methanol. The ECU is set for LAMBDA not a/f. A/F is an emperical equation or look-up table if you will for your zeitronix, ngk, aem, etc...so it spits out a number based on gasoline. (though some can be switched over to other fuel types).

2: I left out one final statement which i edited and added.

3: funny 1.8t dont have a EGT sensor either. There's an EGT temp block in vag-com/VCDS.

4: when you start shoving hot/compressed air into a motor...a/f is a MAJOR concern most so than NA.

[Justincredible]

WOW, your still not getting it. NO, THIS WON"T WORK...

1: again everyone is missing the point... a/f ratio is a calculation from LAMBDA. They all go back to this. 1lambda is 1lambda regardless what the fuel. If you know optimum power is at 12:1 on gasoline. That equals roughly .81 lambda. That equals 5.3:1 on methanol. The ECU is set for LAMBDA not a/f. A/F is an emperical equation or look-up table if you will for your zeitronix, ngk, aem, etc...so it spits out a number based on gasoline. (though some can be switched over to other fuel types).

2: I left out one final statement which i edited and added.

3: funny 1.8t dont have a EGT sensor either. There's an EGT temp block in vag-com/VCDS.

4: when you start shoving hot/compressed air into a motor...a/f is a MAJOR concern most so than NA.

HE gets it.

Lambda is a different target for each fuel. Its a clean burn ratio and the methanol target is too far out of the range set for the stock ECU. SO this isn't plug and play

You want some help? Go put E85 in your car (75% ethanol) and tell me what happens..

until then good luck with this.

[[email protected].]

The target A/F for power on a N/A motor with standard fuel is 12.8
The target A/F for power on a N/A motor with methanol fuel is 5.1

Ok, lets look at this one more way, considering the above stated targets.

That 5.1:1 meth target if you were to translate it to gasoline equals roughly 11.5:1...so in the end you need more methanol to be safe while making max power when compared to gasoline.

What does that target become when your injecting less than 5% meth for a given amount of gasoline?

So you have 2400cc of gasoline entering your motor and LESS THAN 120cc of meth w/ LESS than 120cc of water.

Tell me what the target is. Go ahead.