Pre detonation

**Drew-B6** · 10-05-2010 08:32 PM

Need help, every since going APR 1+ I seem to be getting bad pre detonation. I have FMIC, use BKR7E plugs, have Evo MS DV, have Bosch TT injectors, 3" custom exhaust. Any ideas on what i can do to find out the cause!!! I have been getting CEL's that say under boost and some misfires but I thought it was because of bad coilpacks. I seem to be getting the pre detonation when I am full on the throttle and goes away when i let off the gas.

**$teve** · 10-05-2010 08:43 PM

have you gotten a re-flash? you seem to be at stage 2/2+ i thought stage 1+ on apr software was the file and bigger injectors, an exhaust and fmic might call for a flash..

just an un educated guess though. i have apr stage 1+ and haven't had any problems directly related to the software.

**Drew-B6** · 10-05-2010 08:50 PM

I did those mods thinking that it might help and it hasn't.

**Dre_audi** · 10-05-2010 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by $teve

have you gotten a re-flash? you seem to be at stage 2/2+ i thought stage 1+ on apr software was the file and bigger injectors, an exhaust and fmic might call for a flash..

just an un educated guess though. i have apr stage 1+ and haven't had any problems directly related to the software.

I agree just from what you've listed it sounds like your stg 2 maybe its time for a re flash

**Drew-B6** · 10-06-2010 05:30 AM

Like I said I was having Pre Detonation before I did the Cat Back and FMIC and lower temp plugs. I did these upgrades in hope that it would solve my issue. As far as I am aware there is no Stage 2 chipping, stage 2 just consists of mods along with the stage 1+ flash!

**diagnosticator** · 10-06-2010 06:13 AM

How do you know there is detonation onset activity occuring? With the setup you have, there is nothing that is likely to be causing any detonation onset. For example, is the compression ratio higher than stock? How about the ignition timing advance maximum value, and the IAT? Your exhaust is not causing additional back pressure, and there is no info that that the EGT is excessive. Detonation is not associated with misfires either. Misfires reduce the chance of detonation in the misfiring cylinder, not make it worse. However, if there are misfiring cylinders, then the load on the normal firing cylinders is higher, so that could force the firing cylinders into detonation, if there where other parameters provoking that, and AFAIK, your setup does not have anything to associate with being suseptable to detonation onset.

**Drew-B6** · 10-06-2010 06:45 AM

I can hear the detonation when I am fully on the throttle as boost is building. It sounds like a firework crackling. As for my motor it is stock I have not made any changes to the internals nor have I ever messed with the timing. I was wondering if maybe when I got my car flashed with the 1+ if they might have loaded the 93 file instead of the 91. Here in Utah the best we have is 91 at the pumps. Also do you think there maybe and issue with injectors or fuel pressure? I am at a total lose, the shop I had my car flashed at is no longer in business nor would I want to take my car back to the hack shop. Would APR have on file what flash I was flashed with? I remember having to register something with them. I am really at a loss with what else to check for, I took it into the dealership when I was first having the issues and they said they couldn't find anything wrong and they told me it was probably the aftermarket DV I had, which was a BS answer.

**diagnosticator** · 10-06-2010 07:21 AM

OK, but consider that if the alleged detonation is loud enough to hear inside the car while driving, it's bad enough to have destroyed the engine already. APR has the same file as flashed to your car, as they are all the same file unless you had a custom file flashed to the car for some reason.

**Drew-B6** · 10-06-2010 07:45 AM

I'm not blaming APR per say just saying that my problem has started since I got the flash, which could mean there was a problem before but it just didn't start to show till I got my tune. I am just at a loss on what to test for or look for. I haven't bought the ross tech because I am some what of a noob on what to look for. I don't have a custom tune as far as I am aware I have never made changes myself or had anyone else mess with it.

**Drew-B6** · 10-06-2010 09:53 AM

Bump for help please, I know I am not the only one having this issue. I am starting to wonder if it is APR's 1+ 91 Octane program.

**rccks96** · 10-06-2010 02:43 PM

I'm in utah also, and also have pinging/predetonation. I'm wondering if it's the altitude. I originally had GIAC, but switched to APR in hopes of it curing it. It didn't. I just live with it now.

Who did your APR flash?

**Drew-B6** · 10-06-2010 03:05 PM

Kerma TDI did, that sucks to hear about the GIAC doing the same thing because I was thinking about trying them out and see if it fixes it. I have been talking to another guy in Oregon with the same problem running the 91 file! I am at a loss on what to do, I am starting to think it is the APR program but I can't get any responses or answers from APR!

**[email protected]** · 10-06-2010 04:56 PM

What FMIC are you running?

**diagnosticator** · 10-06-2010 05:20 PM

Does your APR tune include the stock setting? If it does, do you hear the alleged detonation in stock mode?

**Drew-B6** · 10-06-2010 05:34 PM

I have a RACETECH FMIC. No I only got the 91 Octane 1+ file. They didn't have all these deals they do now when I got my tune. When I emailed APR he pretty much just told me to check the gap in my plugs and if I was really getting a Detonation that I would get a CEL for the knock sensor. I am not lying about my Detonation, its happening and verified by a few people that know about cars, I just wanted to see if anyone else might know whats going on before I take it to the shop. I had a dealer look at it awhile ago and they didn't find any codes so they blamed my aftermarket DV. The guy at Streamline in SLC says I am getting a detonation but he isn't an APR dealer he uses GIAC.

**[email protected]** · 10-06-2010 05:44 PM

Sounds to me like you are only detonating under very high load...i.e. when you first get on the throttle.

The major factors that play on detonation are intake air temps, gasoline octane, and engine load.

Have you logged IAT's just to be sure?

**Drew-B6** · 10-06-2010 05:48 PM

I have not, I don't have a ross tech nor do I have the know how on what I am logging or looking for. I am getting the detonating under hard load, when I drive slow and light on the pedal I hear nothing but when I am getting on an on ramp and laying on the gas I hear it, although I don't have to be to hard on it to get the detonation.

**[email protected]** · 10-06-2010 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Drew-B6

I have not, I don't have a ross tech nor do I have the know how on what I am logging or looking for. I am getting the detonating under hard load, when I drive slow and light on the pedal I hear nothing but when I am getting on an on ramp and laying on the gas I hear it, although I don't have to be to hard on it to get the detonation.

If the on-ramp is uphill, you'll hear it worse. Try going wide open throttle on a downhill slope, tell me if you still detonate.

Is your car auto or manual?

**Drew-B6** · 10-06-2010 05:58 PM

It is a 6spd manual, I can hear that sound when I drive a straight line too or going slightly downhill.

**[email protected]** · 10-06-2010 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Drew-B6

It is a 6spd manual, I can hear that sound when I drive a straight line too or going slightly downhill.

Well, since you have the proper software and complimenting hardware, I would say you are having high load issues. I have NO idea what would cause this...but sounds like that's your problem.

**Drew-B6** · 10-06-2010 06:40 PM

I am not the only one having this issue. I have heard from 2 other guys with the same 91 file having the same issue. Why should I have to pay so much for a program that is supposed to have all this r&d but yet I have to log iat amd spend more money on something like vagcom. I'm just frustrated with it and can't seem to find the issue. Just wish someone from Apr would offer some help.

**Sales@RAI** · 10-06-2010 07:13 PM

What are your plugs tapped at? Knock them down to .028 and try again

**Drew-B6** · 10-06-2010 07:22 PM

I have my bkr7e at that now. Should I try a different plug at that gap.

**diagnosticator** · 10-07-2010 04:33 AM

What RPM range do you hear the alleged detonation occurring at high loads? I'm skeptical because true detonation will destroy the engine in seconds if it is actually happening. It is not something the engine will tolerate long term like you have been experiencing. Have you considered running Bosch F5DP0R plugs? Also, you can't hear "Pre detonation" occuring. True detonation sounds like glass breaking when it happens.

**CoreyRS** · 10-07-2010 04:42 AM

Utah also carries 85 octane...have you tried a new tank of gas? Are you positive its 91? and your car should will have the stock option in addition to whatever program you bought...check the APR site on how to switch programs.

I have APR 1+ and live at 5,280' (I even drove up to 12,000' 3 weeks ago) above sea level and I am not experiencing the same issue. Additionally my car has not been re-tuned since i left West Virginia, nor have I switched my program from 93 octane to 91, even though I have been using 91 octane for the past 6 weeks. So I am guessing your problem is something specific to your engine/gas/program setup.

**Drew-B6** · 10-07-2010 05:50 AM

I always use 91Octane even before I had it chipped, I have even tried every single company just thinking maybe I was getting bad gas and no matter what company I choose it does the same thing. I hear the sound when you first on the gas hard and the car starts building boost, the only thing is it doesn't stop unless you let of the gas. The best way to describe the sound I am hearing is like a firework crackle the whole time until I let off the gas. The thing that has me is I am not the only one with this same exact issue with the 91 Octane file.

**Bische** · 10-07-2010 07:27 AM

if its detonation you hear, you can pull the plugs and use a really bright flashlight and look on your pistons. If detonation has happend, espescially for a long time, you would be able to see it on the surface. Looks like its been sandblasted.
Would probably show on the plugs too

I dont think it is detonation your hear, since you have had the problem for so long it would have chewed down your engine internally and it wouldnt run well.

**Bische** · 10-07-2010 07:34 AM

just noticed you say "pre detonation", what do you mean? Its either detonation or pre ignition, and most engines wont survive one rotation of pre ignition.

**JEENYUS** · 10-07-2010 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by [email protected].

What are your plugs tapped at? Knock them down to .028 and try again

Originally Posted by Drew-B6

I have my bkr7e at that now. Should I try a different plug at that gap.

yes. if you not running what clint suggested.

**Bische** · 10-07-2010 08:38 AM

does the car pull when you get the sound? or does it struggle?

Have you changed your coilpacks?

**Drew-B6** · 10-07-2010 08:53 AM

It does still pull but its not as lively. Yes I have changed many coil packs, I am up to the revision D packs and they seem to be lasting but who knows how long. Can I still gap the Bosch F5DP0R plugs? I wish I had someone around me that could take a look at this and give me a good diagnostic. I know something is defiantly wrong and it maybe the chip it maybe something else but it would help a few of us out with the same issue. Is there a way to retard the timing manually with the vag?

**JEENYUS** · 10-07-2010 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Drew-B6

It does still pull but its not as lively. Yes I have changed many coil packs, I am up to the revision D packs and they seem to be lasting but who knows how long. Can I still gap the Bosch F5DP0R plugs? I wish I had someone around me that could take a look at this and give me a good diagnostic. I know something is defiantly wrong and it maybe the chip it maybe something else but it would help a few of us out with the same issue. Is there a way to retard the timing manually with the vag?

have you gone to Utah Imports yet? Streamline is not my favorite, they treat you in a condescending way to often. Utah Imports has a guy that works for them named John (really long hair) he knows his shit. Ask him.

**Drew-B6** · 10-07-2010 09:19 AM

Ok, I will give them a shot. Thanks everyone for your help I'm at a loss on what the deal is with it and when I too it to the dealer to get some help they just tell me I am SOL for doing aftermarket parts.

**rccks96** · 10-07-2010 09:25 AM

Drew-B6 - you sounds just like me 2 years ago. That's why I spent the extra $500 to switch from GIAC to APR. I did all the vag logs I could think of. I tried all sorts of different plugs. I tried all the gas stations. I did seafoam. I checked for boost leaks multiple times. I got the 4 option APR - stock, 91, 93, 100. The pinging definitely gets worse when i go from 91 to 93 to 100. But it's still there in 91 - just not as bad. I can only hear it on a quiet street with the windows rolled down. Or going on an on ramp with tall cement barriers on the side - where the sound reflects off of it. So now, I just leave it in the 91 program, and live with the small amount of pinging i get. If you log CF factors, i bet you'll see high numbers - which is what I see (10s, 13s, even higher occasionally). I've spoken to 2 different shops (the GIAC shop and the APR shop). On of the shops even contacted the company who made the flash - and they had no answer. The only possible fixes they suggested were FMIC, exhaust, etc. But i'm not spending any more money. Just living with it.

If you ever find a solution Drew - please let me know. But don't drive yourself crazy like i did!

**Drew-B6** · 10-07-2010 09:26 AM

If I were to try the Bosch F5DP0R do they come pre-gaped or can I gap them? I was under the impression that I can't gap platinum plugs but I could be wrong.

**rccks96** · 10-07-2010 09:26 AM

Also - you might try Alex's Autohaus - they're an APR dealer. See if they have any new info. that might help.

**Drew-B6** · 10-07-2010 09:30 AM

See I did the FMIC and exhaust and am still having the same issue, I even tried a TIP and heat wrapping the turbo and still the same results. I tried the stock plus and BKR6E and BKR7E and BKR7E-IX all gaped to .028. Its just frustrating because its not like I am trying any crazy set-up. It actually has veered me away from doing a BT and I have considered trading it in and giving up on it.

**rccks96** · 10-07-2010 09:40 AM

FYI, I tried those plugs too (bkr6e and bkr7e). Right now, i'm using the Bosch F5DP0R. No difference. What injectors do you have? That's the only thing I may still try. I have the genesis (i think). I might try the TTs.