Official, RS4 Carbon documentation thread "Discussion"

[Justincredible]

IT seems every good carbon thread is filled with a bit of automotive misunderstanding. You can't fault people for not being or 100% understanding how foreign bodies effect the cars performance. let along how motors and complex components are effected.

This thread exsists to be a measuring block and conversation to this thread
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ntation-thread

Below are just a few misconceptions that have come to be top issues in other thread. Ive included the Vw counter point. The information has been gathered from information VW made available in forms of patients, statements, and press releases.

Audi is 'doing nothing', becuase there is no 'problem'

Directly from the technical staff of VAG is complete acknowledgment of the FSI intake valve deposit issue, and it's impacts, including: decreased performance, misfires, catalytic converter damage ... etc.

we have established deposits do not impact airflow..or deposits cause turbulance: could be a GOOD thing

These deposits on the valve stem can result in flow deficits due to undesired swirling and turbulent flow around the globular carbon deposits. This may persistently interfere with the formation of stable tumble flow from cycle to cycle."

A possible solution would be to keep these sources of deposits away

even excessive build up saps little, if any, power

the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve causes flow resistance, which can lead to significant performance losses due to insufficient cylinder filling

So now that we know carbon is an issue and Audi is addressing it I don't see much need to think people don't know by now carbon is a serious issue that needs to be adressed as it can cause serious issues to the motor and the performance of the car.

[AZSims]

Excellent initiative.

[SpeedETC]

Excellent initiative.

Agreed... Justin, great post!! Thanks for sharing this information.

[mbgt72]

Thank you for putting this together Justincredible. Some great info there, discussion over!

[ArthurPE]

funny, Audi has stated just the opposite to me, in writing (no I won't release it, it's not mine, anyone can ask them)
normal deposits (no other issues)
no appreciable power loss
no emission impact
no efficiency impact
it's NORMAL

I'll forward the link for their perspective? done

are you saying the quotes were made by an employee of VW who is a member here?
funny, because by doing so they have set Audi/VW up for a massive lawsuit...enough to break a company
all FSI (and DI) engines have deposits, it's a natural consequence/by-product of the design, all are affected, ie, large power losses, emission issues, etc.
tens of millions of engines worldwide
man they stuck their foot in their mouth

[Justincredible]

funny, Audi has stated just the opposite to me, in writing (no I won't release it, it's not mine, anyone can ask them)
normal deposits (no other issues)
no appreciable power loss
no emission impact
no efficiency impact
it's NORMAL

I'll forward the link for their perspective? done

are you saying the quotes were made by an employee of VW who is a member here?
funny, because by doing so they have set Audi/VW up for a massive lawsuit...enough to break a company
all FSI (and DI) engines have deposits, it's a natural consequence/by-product of the design, all are affected, ie, large power losses, emission issues, etc.
tens of millions of engines worldwide
man they stuck their foot in their mouth

As usual miss direction and misconception. Audi didn't state anything to you. They (Audi) made a public release and Ive quoted from it. Its been in countless threads and in countless carbon debates.. apparently you never read it.

If you don't want to take Audi's word for It I can quote from countless sources including but not limited to, manufactures of valves that state a clear path past the valves is paramount, manufactures of carbon cleaning process that state how bad carbon is, or we can go back to when there was the switch over from leaded fuel and additives needed to be put into the fuel to cut down on.... you guessed it. power robing and possibly damage causing carbon.

What funny is this.

funny, Audi has stated just the opposite to me, in writing (no I won't release it, it's not mine,

So your telling us..
1 Audi told you something different to you. and you can't release the info they GAVE you as its not yours???? That makes no sense
2 Audi told you something different then there "Official Release and position" stated

Well Audi just called me and told me you were wrong....wait.....There calling back....Hello...OHH ok..thanks... They sending over a courtier with flowers, I can't show you and a card I don't want to publish, that said there sorry for how wrong you are.. but I can't show it. We can how ever use common sense and those that have it can use there understanding of how big of an issue carbon really can be

Some carbon can be normal. If you feel the pictures posted of carbon build up are normal and not an issue. Maybe its time for you to go get a book on how automotive apps work.

[AZSims]

funny, Audi has stated just the opposite to me, in writing (no I won't release it, it's not mine, anyone can ask them)
...

Funny, I have heard you say that before. And the same each time, you don't have information to share. So why say it? Ego?

This thread is not about you Arthur, it's about carbon.

[Justincredible]

Funny, I have heard you say that before. And the same each time, you don't have information to share. So why say it? Ego?

This thread is not about you Arthur, it's about carbon.

please share more. Arthur has gone on about this and stated this else where?

[blkonblkS4]

Well after doing some research and finding the patent for Direct Injection Internal Combustion Engines, which happens to be licenses to Arthur errrr Volkswagen

AG. http://www.google.com/patents?id=fLI...page&q&f=false

We can clearly read page 14 and find that:

"Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of the formation of carbon deposits on components. Carbon deposits form especially in the neck region of intake valves. A more exact analysis of how these carbon deposits form leads to the following result: 15 Oil and fuel constituents first form a sticky coating on the components. These constituents are chiefly long-chain and branched-chain hydrocarbons, i.e., the low-volatility components of oil and fuel. Aromatic compounds adhere especially well. This sticky base coating serves as a base for the 20 deposition of soot particles. This results in a porous surface, in which oil and fuel particles in turn become embedded. This process is a circular process, by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases. Especially in the area of the intake valves, the deposits 2s originate from blowby gases and from internal and external exhaust gas recirculation, and in this process, the blowby gases and the recirculated exhaust gas come into direct contact with the intake valve.

Especially in the area of the neck of the intake valves, 30 excessive carbon deposits have extremely negative effects for the following reasons: In the case of Otto direct injectors, the successful ignition of the stratified charge depends to a great extent on correct development of the internal cylinder flow, which ensures reliable transport of the injected fuel to 35 the spark plug to guarantee reliable ignition at the spark plug. However, a coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may interfere so strongly with the tumble flow that ignition failures may occur there as a result. Under certain circumstances, however, ignition failures can 40 lead to irreversible damage of a catalytic converter installed in the exhaust gas tract for purifying the exhaust gas. Furthermore, the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve causes flow resistance, which can lead to significant performance losses due to insufficient 45 cylinder filling, especially in the upper load and speed range of the internal combustion engine. In addition, the carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may prevent correct valve closing, which leads to compression losses and thus sporadic ignition failures. This in turn could irreversibly 50 damage the catalytic converter. There is the potential for small particles to break away from the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve and get into the catalytic converter. These hot particles may then cause secondary reactions and corresponding local damage of the 55 catalytic converter. For example, a hole may be burned in the structure of the catalytic converter."

Cliff notes:

1. Volkswagen's patent acknowledges the fucking problem!
2. They also reference what it may lead to:
a. resistance in flow can lead to SIGNIFICANT performance losses
b. valves may not fully close causing compression problems and sporadic engine failures
c. carbon destroys or at least degrades your cats

So there you have it folks. This should be the end all be all carbon debate thread, unless Arthur can actually produce some sound evidence stating otherwise or why the fucking patent is outdated/incorrect then there is no argument.

All of credit for this post goes to a man much greater than I.
references:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_90tfqwXc0A

[Justincredible]

Well after doing some research and finding the patent for Direct Injection Internal Combustion Engines, which happens to be licenses to Arthur errrr Volkswagen

AG. http://www.google.com/patents?id=fLI...page&q&f=false
Cliff notes:

1. Volkswagen's patent acknowledges the fucking problem!
2. They also reference what it may lead to:
a. resistance in flow can lead to SIGNIFICANT performance losses
b. valves may not fully close causing compression problems and sporadic engine failures
c. carbon destroys or at least degrades your cats

So there you have it folks. This should be the end all be all carbon debate thread, unless Arthur can actually produce some sound evidence stating otherwise or why the fucking patent is outdated/incorrect then there is no argument.

All of credit for this post goes to a man much greater than I.
references:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_90tfqwXc0A

Great post. It seems there is an issue and like the great company Audi is.. there 100% on top of it. Its been pointed out again and again. This is a serious issue, there are different levels or carbon and its effects. Lets just know it can be a serious issue and thanks for Audi for addressing it and working its best to eliminate it

Thanks Audi. for a great car and work to make sure it continues to stay that way. and thanks to everyone else for making sure the next guys that come here for help have some real direction.

[silverRS4]

Art will simply say that the claims made in that particular patent (namely, special surface treatment to the valve surface) was VAG's solution to what they admit as a problem. Well, its pretty obvious that even if VAG is employing that patented process to the intake valves, its not keeping hydrocarbons from accumulating on the valves. So either they have a patent that doesn't work in production vehicles, or they haven't used the surface treatment yet. In any case, VAG acknowledges a problem with hydrocarbon buildup on FSI intake valves and they haven't solved it.

Another interesting point made in the text of the background of the problem is how the splitter vanes inserted into the intake ports to assist with introducing tumble motion can contribute to "globular" buildup on the valve stem. This buildup looks like a tumor of carbon on the stem and is caused by oil-based compounds that accumulate on the splitter plates and then drip down the valve stems. The cooking heat from the overlap gases and the wiping action of the valve guide create the "glob". This whole process mimics valve guide seal leakage almost perfectly. Its not valve guide leakage. The whole FSI, internal EGR, tumble flap design simply makes a mess...plain and simple. I admit there are many FSI cars that have buildup that is normal and not affecting performance to a large degree. But then there are FSI cars with no CELS, no vacuum problems or anything else obviously wrong, that have buildup so bad the valves are shrouded with crud. Just because the buildup can vary widely doesn't mean the root of the problem is exactly like VAG says it is.

[Justincredible]

, VAG acknowledges a problem with hydrocarbon buildup on FSI intake valves and they haven't solved it.
.

Great post. Its at least good to see Audi is looking into the situation. Its nice to have your first hand experience with carbon clean and the performance gain with that and your intake port work.

[jfunkey]

We all know carbon is the issue that can lead to serious motor issues and loss of performance.

The real issue is with this continued BANNED substance that makes carbon an non issue

Carbon NON issue ban

This is another sever substance that has a serious negitive ratting.
Uncontroled substance

It gets much worse but for the sake of moving on.. Lets just say good old Audi didn't put out that carbon was an issue and lets just say The EXperts all see carbon as a serious performance issue

if you are losing power and mpg due to carbon buildup, if you are experiencing pinging and if you’re having trouble passing emissions test, seafoam may be your answer

This buildup (carbon) can lead to decreased fuel mileage, excessive emissions, hesitation, lack of power, stalling and poor acceleration

After working with Audi America Technicians, I was told that the car had more misfire codes and that the cylinders had carbon build up on them which caused the mis fire codes.

MISSFIRE from Carbon build-up around valves (PICTURES)
My car is currently undergoing decarbonisation - the dealership reckon it is a mixture of cheap fuel and driving style (I use it for Driving Instructing) that has caused it to clog up around the valves

Recently I had a cold start problem which turned out to be carbon build-up on the valves. This time it was dignosed and covered by the dealer.

excessive deposits on intake valves can restrict the amount of air your motor needs for optimal performance. Techron helps keep valves clean and protected from Harmfull carbon build up

Engines use valves to control airflow for both the intake and exhaust systems. While sealing cylinder pressure is also important, performance-engine builders know that proper angles employed on a valve job can have a tremendous effect on airflow. And we all know that airflow is the key to making power. Increase airflow past those seemingly insignificant valves and you'll make more power. It's that simple.

Since flow decreases anytime air is required to change direction, it makes sense to create the transition past the valves as seamless as possible. With that in mind, decades of race-engine builders have discovered that multi-angle valve jobs do the trick.

As the valve starts to open and air begins to flow past the valve, the abrupt change in angles create turbulence that reduces air velocity and flow.This abrupt angle can also cause the air/fuel mixture to separate. Resulting in loss of power and response.

Hell I can do this all day long...

If you do a little research you will find that the BANNED substance that makes carbon a non issue.. Well its been banned from just about every Applacation its been in...

and that folks is how its done.. Carbon into the wall. Jfunkey style
references:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_90tfqwXc0A

[DuncanC]

Damn jfunkey, your right, A little digging and I found this:
BANNED again

I guess that banned substance is thick headed about more than just carbon build up.

[91gl]

funny, Audi has stated just the opposite to me, in writing (no I won't release it, it's not mine, anyone can ask them)
normal deposits (no other issues)
no appreciable power loss
no emission impact
no efficiency impact
it's NORMAL

I'll forward the link for their perspective? done

are you saying the quotes were made by an employee of VW who is a member here?
funny, because by doing so they have set Audi/VW up for a massive lawsuit...enough to break a company
all FSI (and DI) engines have deposits, it's a natural consequence/by-product of the design, all are affected, ie, large power losses, emission issues, etc.
tens of millions of engines worldwide
man they stuck their foot in their mouth

i dont get why you just dont want to believe that this issue exists. everything out of your mouth is a lie and soon you will start with the numbers so people can just skip over your verbal diarrhea and assume your right because you are an engineer. your line of engineering has to do with fecal matter(true story), not direct injection, carbon deposits, or mechanics in general. do us all a favor and just waive the white flag because you are only hurting the community at this point since someone as ignorant as yourself is out there reading your crap and assuming you are true.

[jfunkey]

Damn jfunkey, your right, A little digging and I found this:
BANNED again

I guess that banned substance is thick headed about more than just carbon build up.

omg how do you get banned from a watch web site...This post seems to be exposing more then just carbon issues. this is a good read for people who seem to have had issues with MASSIVE amouints of clear miss information

A few more knowladgeable carbon is a serious issue quotes

( Head of Porsche powertrain development ALMS AND 2008 Race Engine Designer of the Year )

" After intensive discussions with the engineers in our road car division, we knew that in-cylinder tumble ( or barrel swirl as some may call it ) was very important. If you look at the intake flow in a port injected race engine, the most important thing to do is set your target intake airspeed and then try to optimise the flow coefficient. However, for DFI we have another demand- that of charge motion. Usually if we have a high flow coefficient, we will have low charge motion. Likewise if we have high charge motion, then the flow coefficient usually drops. Immediately, therefore, we had a new development direction which was to introduce a specific charge motion into the intake flow without compromising the flow

After the carbon was removed (and the timing was back) the power increases significantly from about 5500rpm. You can feel this easily as it's like a turbo car coming on boost.

[AZSims]

i dont get why you just dont want to believe that this issue exists. everything out of your mouth is a lie and soon you will start with the numbers so people can just skip over your verbal diarrhea and assume your right because you are an engineer. your line of engineering has to do with fecal matter(true story), not direct injection, carbon deposits, or mechanics in general. do us all a favor and just waive the white flag because you are only hurting the community at this point since someone as ignorant as yourself is out there reading your crap and assuming you are true.

Guys, there are a few people around who are in denial about nearly everything, whether it is carbon or DRC. These, and they not many, are the unwelcome Audi "fanboys" who thwart full enjoyment of our cars. ALL cars have issues, the RS4 is not exception and because it is otherwise a great package we are all keen to get to the bottom of the main problems - Carbon & DRC.

Here's a thread on DRC, a major issue in the UK. You will notice some people are in denial no matter how powerful the evidence.

http://www.rs246.com/index.php?name=...hlight=porsche

[AZSims]

Here's a thread on DRC, a major issue in the UK. You will notice some people are in denial no matter how powerful the evidence.

http://www.rs246.com/index.php?name=...hlight=porsche

A follow up on this thread with exact number of RS4's produced worldwide.

http://www.rs246.com/index.php?name=...highlight=rs4s

[jfunkey]

A follow up on this thread with exact number of RS4's produced worldwide.

http://www.rs246.com/index.php?name=...highlight=rs4s

Bro great work.. Looks like some people just have issues. Can you tell us or help find out how many S4's were made in the 2004-2008 years. that would be great.. good work

[AZSims]

Bro great work.. Looks like some people just have issues. Can you tell us or help find out how many S4's were made in the 2004-2008 years. that would be great.. good work

Thank you.
I got my data direct from Audi UK, and happy to share. The annual reports will probably provide all the numbers you want.

[ArthurPE]

all patents are the same:
they state the problem(s) the patented invention addresses, it the standard format, problem statement
this tells me, VW/Audi was aware of the problem (as any automotive engineer would be, DI has been around for 100 years in deisels and gas from 1955 or so)
their patent mitigates it
if it were such an issue: Porsche, BMW, Ferrari, MB, et al, would not be migrating to it...

Well after doing some research and finding the patent for Direct Injection Internal Combustion Engines, which happens to be licenses to Arthur errrr Volkswagen

[jfunkey]

the official position, as I understand it, and as conveyed to me, it's a normal operating by-product of the FSI method
does not cost power, efficiency, etc.

It was never conveyed to you.. your making it up.. no one believes you.. Audi already made official statments in both the open forum and in the patent they applyed for..

the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve causes flow resistance, which can lead to significant performance losses due to insufficient cylinder filling

Here is even more..

[ArthurPE]

how could someone detect a 'loss of power'? lol
have you read the TSB?
it applies to all FSI cars (and states they must have a code)
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...age2?p=5457500
this guy had his cleaned, issue was back shortly
if deposits get bad, there is always another problem, sometimes no code

Audi made a statement in the forum? funny, that's not what they say?

do you think I care what total strangers believe?
who cares if they destroy their engine futzing around with it doing a CC (already happened)
or spend good $$$ paying others to do it, finding out it returns in <2k miles, lol
I'm glad I don't think it's an issue, it would dive me mad, as it appears to be doing to some...even guys who own FSI cars, let alone RS4's, lol

It was never conveyed to you.. your making it up.. no one believes you.. Audi already made official statments in both the open forum and in the patent they applyed for..

Here is even more..

[jfunkey]

I'm glad I don't think it's an issue, it would dive me mad, , lol

Your already there bro.. It apparently wasn't a long drive

[jfunkey]

Lets get back to the onslot of how carbon can lead to power loss

Once existing carbon deposits are removed and future deposit formation is prevented, knocking and pinging (pre-detonation) are eliminated. Engines develop full power while running smoother and quieter. An added benefit of a deposit free combustion chamber is that fuel burns at a properly controlled rate, helping to greatly boost fuel economy

Come on carbon isn't an issue.. who needs the flaps to work on the RS4 anyway
Seriously..look how smooth these are. they don't get stuck..





ok seriously...who is going to pony up and get on the band waggon


_____________________ /\ /\ /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/________ spelled wrong for here pleasure

[2manytoys]

Anyone that is smart enough to use a keyboard knows carbon is a problem. If you notice the amount of time Arthur spends arguing on forums you'll also understand this is what he enjoys doing. It's not about carbon, it's not about watches, or cars, or home entertainment, it's about the thrill of the fight. This is why he is banned, and this is why he should be banned from here.

Arthur spreads misinformation, through misquoting, and causes problems for the community members. He is not helpful, and if he does have a brief moment of help it's done to ensure all his posts aren't destructive (just enough to not get him banned).

I'd probably say to everyone, don't feed his ego, and I'd ask the mods to consider banning him here too. I just don't see any positives when it comes to Arthur.

On the topic of carbon. I was told by Audi they are aware of the problems on the 3.2 ltr engine, but didn't think the problem was on the RS4. I think given the posts here, that is clearly no longer the case.

[AZSims]

The discussion that has been going on at rs6.com. The 1st post by Qisha is quite revealing.

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/20...-build-up-quot

[dmppdx]

So what's the consensus on how much it would actually cost to get a adequate carbon cleaning done? Or how many hours would you have to pay a competent shop to do it? Lets say you wanted to do it once every year or two. As a potentially RS4 buyer, I just want to weigh that cost into my consideration.

I'm also fairly mechanically inclined, so I guess I could maybe do it myself, but I wouldn't want to if there was much chance of screwing up anything significantly. I have noticed a few people have posted DIY, but is there much chance or seriously damaging your engine by doing it wrong? Like if you accidentally let some carbon go into the piston chambers?

[2manytoys]

I've watched the job done a few times now. It's not overly complicated. Depending how bad your valves are, it could take as long as an hour per valve. Yes, that's 16 intake valves!!!

Here are some pictures:

This is what mine looked like 100km after Audi said they cleaned them (obviously I don't think they cleaned them).




This is what they looked like when cleaned properly




This is what mine looked like after only 5000km (from cleaning as above)




In my opinion, carbon can't be good, either in there when the engine is running, or there from cleaning the valves. It's debatable whether it can cause any problems to your engine (even though personally I think it could do a lot of damage). At saying that I wouldn't let any drop into your cylinder when your cleaning them.

This is what my cylinders looked like. I've heard wrong oil caused this (but that's not the case) so I'm still waiting on the final cause.

[Justincredible]

So what's the consensus on how much it would actually cost to get a adequate carbon cleaning done? Or how many hours would you have to pay a competent shop to do it? Lets say you wanted to do it once every year or two. As a potentially RS4 buyer, I just want to weigh that cost into my consideration.

I'm also fairly mechanically inclined, so I guess I could maybe do it myself, but I wouldn't want to if there was much chance of screwing up anything significantly. I have noticed a few people have posted DIY, but is there much chance or seriously damaging your engine by doing it wrong? Like if you accidentally let some carbon go into the piston chambers?

Before more misdirection and misunderstanding comes back into this thread. Lets address this.

If your car is Still under the Audi warranty or has the Audi Extended Warranty you will have NO issues. If the car gets a CEL for Any issue that can be related to Carbon you can take the car in to Audi and they will handle it.

Any carbon on the valves isn't a good thing but its not necessarily something to start to worry about right out of the gate. What were talking about is when carbon gets bad enough to start to cause issues such as CEL's loss of power.

There isn't something to say as far as if you have a RS4 you have a carbon issue. Its not set in stone that your car will have or develop serious or semi serious carbon. It can and in several cases it has. Good general maintenance and proper steps car seriously cut back in any issues.


1) Do not overfill engine with oil. Overfilling causes more oil vapor to get into the crankcase air and more oil vapor to remain in the air that passes through the oil recovery system designed to remove oil from this air on its way to the intake system and combustion chambers. This oil vapor in the air from the crankcase being routed to the intake and combustion chambers contributes to the build up of deposits on the valves.

2) Keep engine oil fresh. Old oil will accumulate water and unburned gas over time and this makes oil more fluid and this results in more oil foaming and more oil foaming results in more oil vapor in crankcause fumes. More oil in these fumes means more oil vapor routed to engine intake and more deposits.

3) Avoid long periods of idling.

3) Use higher engine rpms. Granted this one's tough cause we are all seeking to use lower engine rpms to mainly save fuel. One doesn't have to run engine to redline every shift but any bit of extra engine rpms helps.

4) use the proper recommended fuel. Cheap fuel isn't going to help performance or carbon.

The best thing to do if your even remotely worried about a RS4 having Carbon issues is, to purchase the car from A Audi dealer, make sure its been inspected properly and stick to the proper maintenance service fuel and oil recommendations. If you don't get a car directly from Audi feel free to take it to any dealer and have them inspect it.

The over all idea is to keep the motor clean and properly maintained. If you feel inclined to do any of the work yourself then its really a non issue. To clean the carbon isn't a crazy in-depth issue if your mechanically inclined.

[geebesRS4]

I'm still covered under the Audi Extended Care Warranty and took my RS4 in to see if they would clean the valves under warranty. I didn't know for sure if I had build up, but assumed I did just given the research I had done on this forum. The dealer told me they need a CEL to be able to clean them under warranty. They kept the car overnight and tried starting it cold in hopes of throwing a CEL but were not able to get one. They would not cover it under warranty so I ended up taking it an independent shop to pay for the cleaning. After opening it up, the independent shop realized I had extreme build up. After the cleaning the increased power and throttle response was quite noticeable.

This happened back in April. My question is, can I now have the dealer clean them under warranty WITHOUT a CEL? I obviously had very bad build up (have photos to prove it) but was not throwing any CEL. Any input would be great as the cleaning cost was quite expensive. Thanks fellas.

[Justincredible]

I'm still covered under the Audi Extended Care Warranty and took my RS4 in to see if they would clean the valves under warranty. I didn't know for sure if I had build up, but assumed I did just given the research I had done on this forum. The dealer told me they need a CEL to be able to clean them under warranty. They kept the car overnight and tried starting it cold in hopes of throwing a CEL but were not able to get one. They would not cover it under warranty so I ended up taking it an independent shop to pay for the cleaning. After opening it up, the independent shop realized I had extreme build up. After the cleaning the increased power and throttle response was quite noticeable.

This happened back in April. My question is, can I now have the dealer clean them under warranty WITHOUT a CEL? I obviously had very bad build up (have photos to prove it) but was not throwing any CEL. Any input would be great as the cleaning cost was quite expensive. Thanks fellas.

Please start by posting the pictures here and in the Documentation thread.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ntation-thread

For some cars it seems Audi has a standard threshold for being concerned about carbon and that starts with CEL's. At this point and in some cases Audi will only address the issue if there is a CEL. Many cases have show dealers resolving issues with less then CEL's. Still At this point is seems to be the Standard Benchmark for concern from Audi before anything needs to be adressed

[grease]

does anyone know if Audi would cover something like this if it does throw a cel do to carbon build up but owner has no warranty. like a recall or something?

[jareds941]

Took my car in for a really rough start. No CEL on the dash or anything, but I was sure it was misfiring. There were codes present and the solution was to update the ECU with a new flash to address fuel quality. They were unable to get the update to go "in-house" so the car was kept over night and they had to have AoA connect to it remotely to verify the ECU was OK and then they pushed the update. They wanted to keep the car overnight again to test for cold-start misfires. No misfires detected and I picked it up. The throttle response is night and day different than it was before. the car feels as though I would've expected it to feel after a carbon clean.

I have no idea what the carbon buildup status is on my car, but with the way it performs now and with how much better it is to drive in the mornings, I'm content for now...

[jfunkey]

Took my car in for a really rough start. No CEL on the dash or anything, but I was sure it was misfiring. There were codes present and the solution was to update the ECU with a new flash to address fuel quality. They were unable to get the update to go "in-house" so the car was kept over night and they had to have AoA connect to it remotely to verify the ECU was OK and then they pushed the update. They wanted to keep the car overnight again to test for cold-start misfires. No misfires detected and I picked it up. The throttle response is night and day different than it was before. the car feels as though I would've expected it to feel after a carbon clean.

I have no idea what the carbon buildup status is on my car, but with the way it performs now and with how much better it is to drive in the mornings, I'm content for now...

Something like this is helpfull if you add the work order. When they let it sit over night you can see they add a fuel additive to the car and run the next morning. It would be nice to know the entire work done on the car.

There are issues that can make the car run not well and not be carbon. In the end carbon is an issue with any car.

The issue is that lots of carbon is bad. To say carbon isn't bad to the extent we have seen is clear lack of understanding for anything automotive related.

Lets say this guys. people who know.. know carbon can and is an issue.

The only people who say carbon isn't an issue to the point people have shown are people with a complete lack of knowledge on how things work..

It seems some people try to tell you what they think.. and they make attempts to back it up when they don't really know whats going on..... what insews is lots of bad or wrong information.. Generally those kinds of people are unable to see there wrong and usually don't help or end up interacting well with other members because there stuborn and un informed..Its a pattern.

speaking of wich
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...0&postcount=14

WOW banned again..

The scoop on carbon is simple. Too much is bad. FSI takes away the fuel wash that standard injectors give to the valves. This CAN lead to lots of carbon build up. Every Actual knowlagable automotive person will tell you carbon if left unchecked will lead to power loss bad fuel missfires and sooner or later motor dammage..

Its up the the end user to detirmine what they feel comfortable with carbon collection wise.. If its gotten to the point where you have missfires because of it then That is serious...

[2manytoys]

Mine never throw a code. It did however have very retarded timing (that's retarded as pulled back, not retarded as stupid).

[AZSims]

..

The scoop on carbon is simple. Too much is bad. FSI takes away the fuel wash that standard injectors give to the valves. This CAN lead to lots of carbon build up. Every Actual knowlagable automotive person will tell you carbon if left unchecked will lead to power loss bad fuel missfires and sooner or later motor dammage..
...

Here is an example of guy in Spain who had issues, he got a new engine.

http://www.rs246.com/index.php?name=...wtopic&t=85800

[geebesRS4]

Here are my photos as described in previous post. Had a KMD Tuning catch can installed as well.






Catch Can

[iconoclast]

wow,that is fouled up something awful. there is more than just carbon there, on the vanes it looks like oil. what is your driving style?

[AZSims]

wow,that is fouled up something awful. there is more than just carbon there, on the vanes it looks like oil. what is your driving style?

That does look pretty bad - this was mentioned about carbon build-up on another forum - how does it relate to your driving style?

"Carbon build-up"
Dear Friends,

as promised, i would like to say a word or two concerning „Carbon build-up“:

What is “Carbon build-up” and how does it come into being:

With fuel direct injection the cylinder heads and valves are no longer “washed” by fuel, which leads to a lacking “cleaning factor”. This is where the exhaust gas recirculation combined with the ventilation vapor of the crankcase ventilation and oil starts to build up. Particles of dirt and jets of water coming through the air intake path form into firmly adhering layer. This layer is taken up within the chambers of the cylinder heads and the admission valves, resulting in a rough surface, the airflow cross-sections become more narrow leading to non optimal air interlacing and cylinder charge. In total the results of “Carbon build-up” can be bad exhaust emissions, lower power output and higher consumption. In worst case the “Carbon build-up” affects the valve train. The valves can not close completely, which leads to low compression on the relevant cylinder, the fuel composition is not “fired”.

Factors that promote “Carbon build-up”:

Low quality fuel

Frequent short range driving

Preventing higher engine temps

Low RPM driving

intermittent driving

long time „not-using“

using non-specific engine oil


Audi RS 5 and „Carbon build-up“, do i have to worry?

As you might already know, the RS 5 engine ist based on the RS 4 V8 version. Main “Carbon build-up” relevant points that have been altered:

Engine production tolerance over again significant improved

Engine oil temp is increased by ~10°C

Modified piston rings


Resume:

The probability of „Carbon build-up“ within the RS 5 engine is nominal.

Qisha