Official, RS4 Carbon documentation thread

[Justincredible]

After seeing many posts and many questions arise from carbon deposits and the effect they have on the motor and its performance, It makes sense to document all the end users results from any carbon interaction.

The debate seems to go on endlessly about carbon and its effects on the motor. Many people have tested power losses and fuel efficiency claims. While others have posted, to say there are deeper results such as misfires and possible damage to emission components due to carbon build up.

Lets get some clarity on the subject from a more direct source.

Directly from the technical staff of VAG is complete acknowledgment of the FSI intake valve deposit issue, and it's impacts, including: decreased performance, misfires, catalytic converter damage ... etc.

Audi acknowledges issues and is properly addressing them ASAP. As the great company Audi is, there taking further steps to eliminate this in the future and make sure there are less or no more carbon issues.

Assignee:Volkswagen, AG (Wolfsburg, DE)

Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of the formation of carbon deposits on components. Carbon deposits form especially in the neck region of intake valves. A more exact analysis of how these carbon deposits form leads to the following result: Oil and fuel constituents first form a sticky coating on the components. These constituents are chiefly long-chain and branched-chain hydrocarbons, i.e., the low-volatility components of oil and fuel. Aromatic compounds adhere especially well. This sticky base coating serves as a base for the deposition of soot particles. This results in a porous surface, in which oil and fuel particles in turn become embedded. This process is a circular process, by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases. Especially in the area of the intake valves, the deposits originate from blowby gases and from internal and external exhaust gas recirculation, and in this process, the blowby gases and the recirculated exhaust gas come into direct contact with the intake valve.

Especially in the area of the neck of the intake valves, excessive carbon deposits have extremely negative effects

My local Audi dealer service manager told me that, "the dealerships service departments are aware of the seriousness of the carbon issues and have been given steps to clean and remove the carbon"

Audi is making sure that this can be taken care of at your local dealer. So. the cats out of the bag. There are serious issues, and carbon if left unchecked can and will effect more then just your cars performance/power output. But Audi is there to stand ground and help make this right and a non issue.

Audi has been known to make sure serious performance issues are addressed both at the dealer and in the future manufacturing of there cars. If you feel You might be loosing power or carbon might be an issue. Contact your local Audi Service department, there trained to handle and work to eliminate carbon issues if you have them.

For those of you who are unsure of carbon and what it looks like. Here is a standard clean valve



Here is a carbon coated Valve after several thousand miles.



With all that being said this post is for people who have had carbon experience. Please lets note the condition and severity. Im hoping this will encourage members to take pictures, to help further people to see what can be lurking.

So for those of you that have done this please update this thread with your past information including pictures, results, feedback and Ideas. As this will be The RS4 "Official" Carbon thread.

Please note this is not a discussion thread. It is a documentation thread. Any discussions on this thread need to be directed to this thread.http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...27#post5735227


Vehicle Make/Model:
Location:
Mileage:
Mileage@ W/Carbon:
Oil used:
Oil Change Interval :
Fuel:

Notes:

Tests before/After:

Link to post you may have made about this:


Tips or suggestions:


Here are a few great links to other carbon related posts.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-up-Megathread

[mattlqx]

Vehicle Make/Model: 2007 Audi RS4
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Mileage: 11,000 @ purchase. 25,300 @ trade-in
Mileage@ W/Carbon: 23,200 @ cleaning
Oil used: Serviced by Audi Chandler
Oil Change Interval: 5k miles
Fuel: 91 Top Tier, typically Shell

Notes: Had to do some leaning on my dealer to get them to physically inspect the inside of the valves. Relied on the fact I bought several cars from them, they agreed to foot the bill for inspection if Audi wouldn't warrant the cleaning. Audi approved and paid for everything in the end. Valves after cleaning. Valves before cleaning.

Tests before/After: Dyno sheet with before and after run, similar environmentals, no other modifications except cleaning

Link to post you may have made about this: My RS4 Carbon Build-up Story

Tips or suggestions: Demand a manual cleaning be done prior to purchasing. Demand that a cleaning be done every 5-10k miles under warranty, for as long as that applies anyway.

[Justincredible]

Thanks Mr.perfect. Text book example of what were looking for. Great work.

[geebesRS4]

Vehicle Make/Model: 2007 Audi RS4
Location: Denver, CO
Purchased w/ 37,000 miles, 1 previous owner
No record of previous carbon cleaning
Cleaned at 38,000 miles at 3zero3 motosports in Denver, CO
Previous service records showed oil changed at recommended intervals by Audi Dealer in NJ using Audi recommended oil
Fuel: 91 Top Tier (highest we have in Denver at most stations)

Read about carbon build up on this forum. Asked dealer to check and clean under warranty. Dealer couldn't get any CEL to show up so would not clean under warranty. Took to 3Zero3 motorsports in Denver (independent Audi, VW, Porsche shop) and they performed cleaning. Service adviser at 3Z3 could tell there was significant build up just by test driving car. There was excessive build up as show in photos below. Very noticeable increase in power and throttle response after cleaning. 3Z3 also installed KMD tuning catch can. http://www.kmdtuning.com/index.php?_...productId=1989 Plan on checking catch can and valves again soon.

Any insight into how to get this covered under warranty when the vehicle doesn't throw a CEL would be appreciated if it needs to be done again in the future.






Catch Can

[2000S4]

Vehicle Make/Model: 2007 Audi RS4
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Mileage: 100,000 @ purchase
Mileage@ 100,250@ cleaning
Oil used: Dealer Oil till i bought the car and now using Lubro moly top tech 4200
Oil Change Interval: 5000 kms (will be doing 2nd oil change this weekend)
Fuel:Sunoco 94 from the time purchased

Notes: I bought this car from pittsburgh at 100,000. After importing the car and driving it home I went straight to the shop and dropped it off. At closer inspection I seen the one time use clamps still on the hoses around the manifold so this was a good sign of the manifold never coming off the car. I then removed the manifold to find So much carbon build up. I have never seen a car with this much build up ever. After 14 hours of tedious cleaning the manifold was ready to be installed. I dropped the oil and changed the filter, and fired up the car. Right away there was a big difference in the way the car idled. After taking the car for a drive I went back with a smile on my face. The car totally transformed into a monster. Whoever says carbon build up does not rob power should give there head a shake. I also added a kmd catch can right after the cleaning. It has been almost 4000kms since the cleaning. I will be pulling the manifold this winter for further inspection.

Tests before and after: The only tests i performed were driving the car.

Links or posts: No

Tips or suggestions: If your car is feeling sluggish get it in and have the intake pulled, especially if it has never been done. I would also suggest before doing any performance modifications to make sure your car is 100% healthy. Check for carbon and do your maintenance.

[Justincredible]

Great work guys lets keep em coming.

Please lets note any comments or questions should be posted in this thread.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...27#post5735227

[NY07RS4]

Vehicle Make/Model: 2007 Audi RS4
Location: Lake Grove, NY
Mileage: 29,000 @ purchase. 49,500 currently
Mileage@ W/Carbon: 48,500 @ cleaning
Oil used: Serviced by Audi of Smithtown & myself in between dealer changes.
Oil Change Interval: 3k-4k miles OEM oil/filter with dealership / RLI or Lubro w/OEM filter when I do it
Fuel: 93 Top Tier, 99% of the time from Shell

Notes: Had to do some leaning on my dealer to get them to do the work. I provided them with some invoices from other members who were fortunate enough to have their dealers perform the cleaning gratis. I had them agree to it and luckily for them both my CEL and EPL lights came on while I was driving to the dealer. This allowed the dealership to put a claim in with the warranty company who now had to pay based on the lights etc. Unfortunately I have no before & after pics and my bore-scope camera lens with led lights is too large to fit down the spark plug hole. The next time I do the cleaning I’ll be doing it so I will take pics at that time.

Tests before/After: Similar environment, no other modifications except cleaning & new spark plugs. Dyno sheets below:
Before:


After:


Tips or suggestions: Demand a manual cleaning be done prior to purchasing. Then change your oil every 3k – 4k and plan to clean your valves every 10K or whatever you are comfortable with.

[JuniorAra]

Vehicle Make/Model: 2007 Audi RS4
Location: Toronto, ON
Mileage: 24,200 @ purchase
Mileage@ W/Carbon: 32,500 @ cleaning (no cleaning done prior to this)
Oil used: Motul 8100 Xcess 5w40
Oil Change Interval: approx. 3000 miles
Fuel: Shell 91 (only fuel in the city without ethanol)

Notes: I got a local shop, Independant Tuning, to do the work. One of the few local shops that have done more than a few carbon cleans and have a great reputation. The car was serviced regularly prior to my purchase. Picked up the car and noticed several HUGE differences. Car idles perfectly, no stutters at an point. Constant power all the way through to 5500rpm and then a jolt, as has been described by others. No misfires after I did a vag-com, and no stutters when i drive the car away after a cold start. Based on my ass dyno, the power available to me now is night and day.

Tests before/After: Butt dyno said it all. Based on what other peoples perceptions after the CC i opted not to do a dyno because the cleaning makes enough of a difference that you can feel it. A dyno only confirms it i'm sure but not worth the expense.

Tips or suggestions: If you buy a high performance machine like this you know maintenance isn't cheap, but the 8-10 hours of labor that it will costs you every 20K miles to get this done should NOT prevent you from a)purchasing the car and b)doing the clean. Get it done and don't waste your time thinking about it. If you think you have buildup, you probably do. You wont regret getting this done.

[fluevog]

Vehicle Make/Model: 2007 Audi RS4
Location: New Haven, CT
Mileage: 31,200 @ purchase
Mileage@ W/Carbon: 38,850 @ cleaning
Oil used: Castrol Syntec / Motul 8100 Xcess 5w40
Oil Change Interval: approx. 4000 miles
Fuel: Shell V Power 93

I asked the dealer to do the cleaning. The car runs ok (no kick at 5500 rpm) hesitation when engine is cold., and it felt down on power. My car is currently covered under a CPO warranty but I'm still paying out of pocket for this. Audi needs to step up and reimburse us for these cleanings, extend our warranties and fix the problem.

[Beeker_NZ]

Vehicle Make/Model: 2006 RS4 Avant
Location: New Zealand
Mileage: 36,000kms
Mileage@ W/Carbon: 36,000kms
Oil used: Shell
Oil Change Interval : 15,000kms
Fuel: BP 98 RON

Notes: Have only recently purchased the car. Noticed it was down on top end power (plus no 5500rpm kick) compared to my old B5 RS4. Decided to Dyno and compare. Glad i did....

Tests before/After:It dyno'ed 213WKW.
I then had a stuck closed airbox flap diagnosed, and had a manual carbon clean done. A re-Dyno then produced 233WKW.

Link to post you may have made about this:

Tips or suggestions

[TitaniumRS]

2008 rs4
46,000/ 30,000 when i purchased it.
Worked out something with the dealer. I said i would pay for them to remove intake manifold to manual inspect. If they found carbon it would be covered under warranty, if not i would be responsible for labor for the manifold. So i saw all the build up for my self. My car was number 4 for carbon clean.
Who says a dealer won't do a good job lol.

[prfktgntlmn]

TitaniumRS. . . Are you taking the pics or the dealership?

[TitaniumRS]

dealer did i was there twice once when they pulled off intake manifold and once to check it out. Should have it back tomorrow.

[MAARKUS]

any update on JHM's rumored fix??

[sykotoyRS4]

Vehicle Make/Model: 2006 Audi RS4
Location:Sydney Australia
Mileage: 4000ks@ purchase
Mileage@ 120,000 now
Oil used: audi dealership oil
Oil Change Interval: services
Fuel: 98+ everytime ( apparently, even that isnt good enough, 100 is best,)



http://www.ozaudi.com/forums/showthr...13543&posted=1

MY PROBLEM - Ive been reading a lot about the "inevitable carbon build up's on FSI engines. some of the oversea's thread are scary!!!

So when on last service Audi mention a sticky valve, i gulped.....anyway its going in this week for a diagnostic....basically its sounds like a car running on 6-7 pistons, not eight.....like a thudda thudda thuddda....thudda gets faster as i do, it would loose power and i'd have to pull over, turn off, then turn on...then she would drive sweet again.
But now its a thudda thudda thudda in the back ground ..with power all the time. as i speed up , thudda speeds up but im able to drive

A pal from a garage reckkons if it does not sound like a metal hammer tapping on tin, then its not a valve problem and more likely due to age a coil pack, electrical lead, misfire, plugs etc.

I hope he's right, the carbon can include pulling the IM off and on, and hours of scrubbing...from other threads..20 hours approx, wonder what audi australia will charge us for that.

Any thoughts people, anyone out there thinking .." I KNOW WHAT THAT SOUNDS LIKE" I'D BE GLAD TO HEAR FROM YOU and any carbon stories.

It does feel/sound like a engine firing on less pots than it has, but im worried, its going to audi doctor tomorrow, anyone know what these symptoms might mean for me.HELP

syko

[sykotoyRS4]

TITANIUM RS ANY PICS, COSTINGS, INFORMATION...if yours is like thatt at 30miles, whats mine at with 120ks, how many kays to a mile anyway
.

whats considered high milliage in mile's these days.....over here we consider100k to be a mark and 140-160k being an area of a lot of replacement work, you guys in miles?????

[sykotoyRS4]

TITANIUM RS ANY PICS, COSTINGS, INFORMATION...if yours is like thatt at 30miles, whats mine at with 120ks, how many kays to a mile anyway
.

whats considered high milliage in mile's these days.....over here we consider100k to be a mark and 140-160k being an area of a lot of replacement work, you guys in miles?????

[RS4forfrank]

TITANIUM RS ANY PICS, COSTINGS, INFORMATION...if yours is like thatt at 30miles, whats mine at with 120ks, how many kays to a mile anyway
.

whats considered high milliage in mile's these days.....over here we consider100k to be a mark and 140-160k being an area of a lot of replacement work, you guys in miles?????

100k is 62miles. other than this manual cleaning, is there a fuel additive we could use to slowly break this stuff down and off the valves?

[RS4forfrank]

sorry 100km is 62 miles.

[B45H1R]

Had it cleaned 2 weeks ago. Reportedly very difficult to clean. I imagine so for a car with 67K miles on it without a previous clean. Glad to have had it done. I'll be honest, I can't tell much of a difference, but I rarely flog it. When I do, It always pulls hard. Pulled hard before, and pulls hard still.

Just as a note. The plugs were changed, and also had an oil change and some Motul put in. The garage (BARTuning in Houston) didn't take a pic of the oil change, but since they'd done a previous carbon clean on another RS4 with the same oil change, using the same oil, I borrowed the last two pics from that photo stream. Every other pic is 100% my car.

It will be on sale this week.


Before:


















After:

[mmcgee]

2008 RS4 CEL lit up 2 weeks ago. Out of warranty. Just as I expected, the dealer said needed Carbon removal/cleaning at a cost of $830. This will be the 4th time in 40k miles. Last time was 20k ago. I am 2nd owner (previous owner had carbon issue 2x within 15k). I am trying to get Audi to cover due to the frequency and low mileage but have not gotten a decision yet.

Seems like $830 is low - especially when the dealer was under the impression that I would be 100% (financially) responsible when they diagnosed the issue. I have been assured that the work involves manifold removal, manually build-up removal, and a solution based cleansing - in all 8 cylinders.

Any other RS4 owners have a feel for the $ amount I was quoted. I actually expected a much higher estimate but am trying to get covered nonetheless.

Thanks

[prfktgntlmn]

2007 RS4
Atlanta, GA
59,378 @ purchase. 1 previous owner with no record of carbon clean.
73,912 @ carbon clean.
Mobile 1 0w-20
Chevron 93
Mine is getting done at the stealership as we speak. $920 ouch! I do have a nice loaner. 2013 A6.

2008 RS4 CEL lit up 2 weeks ago. Out of warranty. Just as I expected, the dealer said needed Carbon removal/cleaning at a cost of $830. This will be the 4th time in 40k miles. Last time was 20k ago. I am 2nd owner (previous owner had carbon issue 2x within 15k). I am trying to get Audi to cover due to the frequency and low mileage but have not gotten a decision yet.

Seems like $830 is low - especially when the dealer was under the impression that I would be 100% (financially) responsible when they diagnosed the issue. I have been assured that the work involves manifold removal, manually build-up removal, and a solution based cleansing - in all 8 cylinders.

Any other RS4 owners have a feel for the $ amount I was quoted. I actually expected a much higher estimate but am trying to get covered nonetheless.

Thanks

[mmcgee]

Stealership! Nice... You feel good that the $920 is addressing what needs to be done/cleaned/removed? I spoke to a local independant shop and he agreed that the price sounded reasonable (for a dealer) but that there could be build up further down that the intake. Make any sense? What if there is build up on the valves? The $830 ($920 in your case) cover that too?

[prfktgntlmn]

A service Rep took this with his cell.
Yes. They replaced the gaskets and they also told me they performed an induction service after it was put back together . I'm thinking the cost may go up because of that, not sure. The induction service wasn't included in the original quote but the gaskets were. I pick it up in the morning.

Stealership! Nice... You feel good that the $920 is addressing what needs to be done/cleaned/removed? I spoke to a local independant shop and he agreed that the price sounded reasonable (for a dealer) but that there could be build up further down that the intake. Make any sense? What if there is build up on the valves? The $830 ($920 in your case) cover that too?

[mmcgee]

A service Rep took this with his cell.
Yes. They replaced the gasket and they also told me they performed an induction service after it was put back together . I'm thinking the cost may go up because of that, not sure. The induction service wasn't included in the original quote but the gasket was. I pick it up in the morning.

Update. Was called this morning and told the car was ready to be picked up. Dealer provided before/after pics but have no way of knowing for sure if they are of my car or not. THey covered for me under warranty.

Did notice on the way home that the oil temp reached 230 F. Never seen it above 210 that I can recall. The front fenders and hood are very warm - maybe they always were but seems different.

Could a cleaning like this make the engine/oil temps rise? The engine temp guage is not any higher than usual.

[prfktgntlmn]

My normal temp before the carbon clean was 217 and I've seen it up to 235 IIRC but of course that's with spirited driving. I haven't really monitored it since the CC. I'm the second owner and currently have 74000 miles and this was the first time a CC was ever done on the car. The previous owner had one induction service performed and that's it. I've done a few myself but it really doesn't help much after the carbon has caked on especially with the mileage I have. I'll have to see what the temp looks like now. I hear you about the pictures. I wish I had some before and after pics. The one pic I do have that I believe is of my car, the service consultant said he took with his cell and sent it to mine. Unless for some reason he has that pic saved to his personal cell phone. But I don't think he's that type of guy. He seemed truthful when I talked to him so I'm thinking they are on the up and up. My grand total out the door was $948. He originally said it would be like $1050, due to parts. But I told him that the service manager quoted me $920 including parts so he said he'd talk to the manager and adjust it. Applied a 10% discount on parts and a 10% percent discount on service which brought it back down. And they did perform and induction service also so I think it was a fair price. I'd have to say the best experience I've had at a dealership in a long time. Check this thread out for concerns of oil temperatures. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...light=oil+temp

[xalfa]

First cleaning just performed at 70k miles. No codes or issues beforehand. I have read about "night and day" differences before and after a cleaning, but this was not my experience. Response seems a little crisper and engine is willing to rev up on downshift blips a bit faster. Idle was smooth before and is no smoother after. Slightly more pronounced bump at 5500 after, but it was there before. I can believe there is a little more power at the top end, but it is not jumping out at me. I would be surprised if more than 2% gain. Overall, the engine feels a bit more "alive" and responsive, but it is definitely subtle.

So I would not say "night and day" but maybe "night and very early dawn when the sun is still below the horizon and the sky begins to take on a soft violet glow."

I mainly got the job done to level set things on the maintenance front, as I have only had the car since 50k miles and the ports had not been cleaned before. Not sorry I did it, but based on this experience I'm not planning to do it again for at least 50k miles.

Hope that helps someone...

[badbluers4]

Not to scare you, but are you sure they did a real carbon cleaning by removing the intake manifold and scraping the carbon by hand? There are many stories of dealers for example selling a "intake cleaning, or induction service" by just using some products in the gas tank or spraying in the throttle body and calling it a carbon clean. Hopefully they gave you some pics to show you before and after of your carbon buildup.

[xalfa]

Not to scare you, but are you sure they did a real carbon cleaning by removing the intake manifold and scraping the carbon by hand? There are many stories of dealers for example selling a "intake cleaning, or induction service" by just using some products in the gas tank or spraying in the throttle body and calling it a carbon clean. Hopefully they gave you some pics to show you before and after of your carbon buildup.

Absolutely sure. Photo documented. And I would never get this kind of work done at a dealer. My take is that the carbon issue is largely psychological. People who own cars like this tend to be a bit obsessive compulsive. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[badbluers4]

Well it was definitely night and day for me and for friends of mine. We even saw about 25 whp gain @ about 45k miles. In pulls it would make about a car length of a difference. Since you have pics of before and after, was your carbon level not bad before?

[xalfa]

If a 5% peak power gain feels like "night and day" then you have a much better butt dyno that me. Mine is not good for anything under +/-10%.

Build up was not the worst they have seen and also uneven across ports. Some were not bad at all. I'm assuming it was below average for 70k miles.

[badbluers4]

Well that's good. Yeah maybe yours was cleaned before. It's more like about 10% whp gain. And not just peak. It's across the power band. It's like not being able to open your lungs all the way when running. The car is just starving. LOL But hey at least you got it done.

[xalfa]

Here is a pic of one of the worst ports. Not too bad for 70k miles.

[xalfa]

Couple of follow ups on my CC.

1) First, while removing the IM, the mechanic broke one of the flap actuator arms - not the linkage, but the curved arm coming out of the actuator. They were able to source a good used unit, but not without some difficulty. I was having them put on the 034 aluminum linkage arms, so my theory is the mechanic decided he did not need to worry about breaking the original plastic ones when he removed the IM and ended up breaking an actuator arm instead. Slow down there, Cowboy.

2) About 400 miles after the CC was done I developed a massive vacuum leak making the car barely drive-able. Ends up the mechanic did not properly reassemble the vacuum lines under the IM which control the flaps, and one came disconnected. They had to remove the IM again to fix this.

Shop is generally well-regarded but will remain un-named. They made it all right in the end, but can't say I was impressed with the "initial quality" of the job.

Moral of the Story: Tell your tech to take it SLOW when removing the IM and double-check the vacuum lines when re-installing.

[singleframe]

here is the "before" taken today! NASTY!!!!










looking forward to the "after"!

bought my RS4 a few weeks ago.
58,xxx miles
never been de-carbed before...wasn't part of the "scheduled" Audi maintenance for previous owner, so why would he shell out 1400 bucks to do it!
so glad i'm doing this though!!

[ad2330]

wow, that is terrible. You're going to see some nice gains, singleframe. You won't believe the difference!

[WinterRunner]

68K miles, 3rd clean since ownership. Not too bad, had last done at 50K I believe.

Before:


After:


Anyways I've seen way worse, this seems mild to me.

[xalfa]

I did my first CC at 70k miles. In my opinion the cost ($700) to benefit ratio was upside down. Not worth it.

[ad2330]

I did my first CC at 70k miles. In my opinion the cost ($700) to benefit ratio was upside down. Not worth it.

not sure if serious..

[ad2330]

Looks great, Winter!

I just completed one yesterday as a matter of fact, and have about the same miles as you (68,xxx).