Interesting Article on AWD vs. FWD in the snow...

**quatnix** · 02-22-2005 12:38 PM

Here in Montreal, where we know snow, we put on snow tires. Quattro or no Quattro. In fact when I got the car and asked the Audi dealer about my Quattro in snow, they said outright you still needed snow tires... So I find the article a bit useless (though interesting) without another test of the Quattro + snow tires. Would have been a more useful comparison to see all the combos.

**DLSJ5** · 02-22-2005 12:50 PM

Originally posted by quatnix
Here in Montreal, where we know snow, we put on snow tires. Quattro or no Quattro. In fact when I got the car and asked the Audi dealer about my Quattro in snow, they said outright you still needed snow tires... So I find the article a bit useless (though interesting) without another test of the Quattro + snow tires. Would have been a more useful comparison to see all the combos.

Now I know I screwed up in some of my interpretation of this article, it wan't a recent one, but from what the article says and diagrams, all the cars were compared with stock tires and snow tires, meaning all the combo's. So it's harldy a useless article.

**Jet Jockey** · 02-22-2005 02:01 PM

Originally posted by DLSJ5
It was the infamous Jet Jockey that said "Even Audi knows FWD sucks" LOL, however according to some recent testing done by Car and Driver, FWD or RWD may be a safer bet in the snow, that is with the addition of snow tires. Don't get me wrong, I love AWD and I'm not gonna mock or put down what I don't have, but I choose FWD for a couple reasons on the A4 1.8t, 1 being I don't need it here in Socal, and 2 because of the weight factor, just my personal choice. If there was a Bi turbo V6 or V8 turning all 4 wheels then that's different. This one's for you Jet.

Car and Driver testing of FWD vs. AWD

Dear, dear Drew. Please wake up from your dream state in LA LA land in California. C&D sucks! Having owned many cars, RWDs (Porsche), FWDs (too many) and Quattro, I can tell you there is no way in Hell either one of the two first mentioned design can keep up with an AWD in slippery conditiond especially snow. Now Lambo, Porsche, Volvo, Subaru, Mit, Audi, VW, Mercs and countless others know AWD offers a lot more positives than negatives. Look in racing where they are allowed to use AWD (World Challenge) in rallying where Audi revolutionized the sport where AWD and its handling and traction blew the competition off the road in both dry and wet/slippery conditions.

I dare you to come up to Canada in our wintery conditions and go on a road course with snow with a FWD and just try to hang on to a Quattro car, it won't even be close.

The problem with the test is they did not use the AWD in the proper way. Get the car to rotate around the pylons and use the Quattro to its advantage. True the Audi's are nose heavy and hopefully they will address this in the next generation of A4s. And yes the heavier the car the longer it takes to stop it.

What if anything people should learn from this article is use snow tire regarless of drive train configuration. I see too many people with four season tires on FWDs and AWDs and they think that's fine until they get in trouble.

**amirsafdari** · 02-22-2005 02:02 PM

Originally posted by quatnix
In fact when I got the car and asked the Audi dealer about my Quattro in snow, they said outright you still needed snow tires...

Were you purchasing a model with Sports suspension option?

Sports option comes with Summer tires, it would be pretty obviuos that either winter or All-Season tires are required.

However, the majority of Audi owners (95%) that purchase quattro models in Canada, do not purchase snow tires. They are not needed if you are a law abiding driver that doesnt speed, or change lanes at high speeds on main roads that are usually plowed.

I have snow tires on my 1.8t Quattro, however my mom owns a 3.0 quattro b6 that is only wearing the all-seasons that came stock, and to be honest, the difference is not night and day. Traction wise, the difference is very minimal when driving cautisouly which the average person does when the white stuff is on the ground. Even braking, was not that different.

The difference between a quattro with all-seasons and a quattro with snow tires becomes greater with a more spirited driver. And only with a spirited driver would the most benefits of snow tires become evident.

Safety always comes first, but we cannot forget that a cautious driver with all-seasons will always be safer than a spirited or idiot driver with snow tires.

**|Sandman|** · 02-22-2005 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Silence
AWWWW! Lookie there. Solidarity between the FWD guys. I'm touched....

AHAHAH that one made me laugh !

No, but really.. I think AWD is good, but isn´t something that special.. dunno... I think its like this, if you have a powerfull car, than AWD is important, makes the difference for the positive, but if you have a car with low power (lets say 150hp ?), the quattro only makes it worse, cause it´s more heavy than the FWD..

Diogo

**Crazy Quattro** · 02-22-2005 02:33 PM

I stopped reading after this.

Knowing that the C/D faithful would never encumber a vehicle with such ballast if there were a better way, we set up a test to see if snow tires and two-wheel drive could match the sure-footedness of all-wheel drive using stock tires in wintry conditions

**aussie_s4** · 02-22-2005 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Crazy Quattro
I stopped reading after this.

quote:
Knowing that the C/D faithful would never encumber a vehicle with such ballast if there were a better way, we set up a test to see if snow tires and two-wheel drive could match the sure-footedness of all-wheel drive using stock tires in wintry conditions

Me too. What a bunch of assclowns.

**DLSJ5** · 02-22-2005 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Jet Jockey
Dear, dear Drew. Please wake up from your dream state in LA LA land in California. C&D sucks! Having owned many cars, RWDs (Porsche), FWDs (too many) and Quattro, I can tell you there is no way in Hell either one of the two first mentioned design can keep up with an AWD in slippery conditiond especially snow. Now Lambo, Porsche, Volvo, Subaru, Mit, Audi, VW, Mercs and countless others know AWD offers a lot more positives than negatives. Look in racing where they are allowed to use AWD (World Challenge) in rallying where Audi revolutionized the sport where AWD and its handling and traction blew the competition off the road in both dry and wet/slippery conditions.

I dare you to come up to Canada in our wintery conditions and go on a road course with snow with a FWD and just try to hang on to a Quattro car, it won't even be close.

The problem with the test is they did not use the AWD in the proper way. Get the car to rotate around the pylons and use the Quattro to its advantage. True the Audi's are nose heavy and hopefully they will address this in the next generation of A4s. And yes the heavier the car the longer it takes to stop it.

What if anything people should learn from this article is use snow tire regarless of drive train configuration. I see too many people with four season tires on FWDs and AWDs and they think that's fine until they get in trouble.

LOL, take it anyway you want my Brother Mike, I posted a link to an article that showed some interesting results that is all. LA LA land can you say "G-Tech." LOL. Yes AWD is superior in certain important areas, I never disputed that, the point of posting the article was to show people like you who hate on FWD's that they're really not all that bad.

Likewise, I wish you would come to the west coast so I could give your Quattro a good old ass whipping.

There's no snow here anyway, I don't feel the need for a Quattro for what works for me, I don't track the car, go snowboarding etc., and according to C&D all I would need are some good snow tires in your neck of the woods. On a track racing, in the snow or not, yeah AWD better out perform FWD, and in most cases it absolutely would. Audi being successful has to do with more than just AWD, the cars make decent power too.

Now get the Stage 4 already so we can talk about something besides FWD and AWD.

**bhvrdr** · 02-22-2005 03:14 PM

Never heard an Audi driver say, "Darnnit, I wish I had gotten FrontTrak"

Don't feel bad my Drew. No need to spend time searching for little straws of areas where fronttrak compares. Just be happy my friend and get some 255 Hoosiers up front with 225 Falkens in the rear.

cheers! Mike

**DLSJ5** · 02-22-2005 03:21 PM

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Never heard an Audi driver say, "Darnnit, I wish I had gotten FrontTrak"

Don't feel bad my Drew. No need to spend time searching for little straws of areas where fronttrak compares. Just be happy my friend and get some 255 Hoosiers up front with 225 Falkens in the rear.

cheers! Mike

LOL, good way to put it Mike, but I'm not trying to convince people to do that. Most of us didn't buy a 4 cylinder to make it fast either. I don't feel bad, I'm quite content with my car. I didn't search for the article either it found me over on the B5 S4 forum, these guys didn't put up quite the fuss our crowd has, LOL.

It's info that's all.

**aussie_s4** · 02-22-2005 03:32 PM

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Never heard an Audi driver say, "Darnnit, I wish I had gotten FrontTrak"

Darnit, I wish I had gotten that limited edition, burnt orange 1.8T Tiptronic FrontTrak

**bhvrdr** · 02-22-2005 03:54 PM

Originally posted by aussie_s4
Darnit, I wish I had gotten that limited edition, burnt orange 1.8T Tiptronic FrontTrak

ROFLMAO...this is a quote worth saving.

Hey Drew,
You know i'm bustin your chops. I actually agree. I went with a FrontTrak B5 in Florida and it was great in stock form. No real tradeoffs that were noticeable. It wasnt until I started piling on the helpings of power that I had to ditch it. Still really look back on that car fondly. Pelican Blue was the best Audi color in exhistance with Imola and Negaro quickly following. Cheers! Mike

**foofighter** · 02-22-2005 04:02 PM

this has all be delightfully entertaining fellas.

but having owned both FWD and AWD torsen and haldex i wouldn't go back to FWD even though at times Kim's car would be a lot quicker than mine i know that in a given situation i would come away being ahead...

**Silence** · 02-22-2005 04:06 PM

FWD is an acronym for "For Wuss Drivers" That's what I heard anyway...

**foofighter** · 02-22-2005 04:13 PM

now now let's not call into question one's manhood if they drive fwd...in fact they're braver because they are doing it w/ just 2 wheels.

**DLSJ5** · 02-22-2005 04:15 PM

Originally posted by bhvrdr
[B]ROFLMAO...this is a quote worth saving.

Hey Drew,
You know i'm bustin your chops. I actually agree. I went with a FrontTrak B5 in Florida and it was great in stock form. No real tradeoffs that were noticeable. It wasnt until I started piling on the helpings of power that I had to ditch it. Still really look back on that car fondly. Pelican Blue was the best Audi color in exhistance with Imola and Negaro quickly following. Cheers! Mike

I know Brotha, and likewise. Totally agree even without the added power, that wheelspin can be a major problem with FWD, but side by side in a straight line, FWD owns. VW's are running in the 12's though with Stage 3's on good street tires, so there's ways around it. My next car will not be FWD, regardless I've been very happy with this one so far. The B5 Quattro is as light as my FWD, so they move pretty good. Any pics of that old FWD beast of yours with Rims? Love that pic though.

**bhvrdr** · 02-22-2005 04:30 PM

Originally posted by DLSJ5
I know Brotha, and likewise. Totally agree even without the added power, that wheelspin can be a major problem with FWD, but side by side in a straight line, FWD owns. VW's are running in the 12's though with Stage 3's on good street tires, so there's ways around it. My next car will not be FWD, regardless I've been very happy with this one so far. The B5 Quattro is as light as my FWD, so they move pretty good. Any pics of that old FWD beast of yours with Rims? Love that pic though.

What? You cant see the rims in that picture? LOL. I never changed a thing to the exterior of that car.

It had a nice stage 2 chip in it with the full MTM exhaust.

Another cool little thing it had was MTMs sport cat. This is an original OEM Audi cat that has 2.75" flanges to replace the 2" flanges. It then is opened up and replaced with 200cpsi hi flow matrix. It was really a low profile setup. Even all of the OEM Audi P/N s remained on the car.

cheers! Mike

**Silence** · 02-22-2005 04:46 PM

I found another pic of the car Drew. Amazing what google images will pull up

**Saturnine** · 02-22-2005 04:48 PM

OWNED

**Awadd9** · 02-22-2005 05:37 PM

Drew,
If I lived in SoCal I would probably pass on the Quattro as well.

Do you have any concern about traction once you are up and running with the big ponies??

Andrew

**Vortec4800** · 02-22-2005 05:46 PM

Originally posted by Awadd9
Drew,
If I lived in SoCal I would probably pass on the Quattro as well.

Do you have any concern about traction once you are up and running with the big ponies??

Andrew

I have some concerns, which is why when I do a "big" turbo upgrade, "big" will mean K04 and not GT28RS. By the time I have enough power that traction will be a problem, I'll just trade it in on a BMW and solve that problem alltogether.

**DLSJ5** · 02-22-2005 05:58 PM

Originally posted by Vortec4800
I have some concerns, which is why when I do a "big" turbo upgrade, "big" will mean K04 and not GT28RS. By the time I have enough power that traction will be a problem, I'll just trade it in on a BMW and solve that problem alltogether.

On this I have to slightly disagree with you brother, if anything you'll get more wheelspin off the line with the K04 cause it's power is mostly down low, while the 28RS is mostly mid to up top and once the car is already moving, although wheelspin will still exsist. A friendly run with an M3 or Evo usually will take place on the highway, where wheelspin is not an issue. Stay tuned on the GT28RS thingy.

**zemun2** · 02-22-2005 06:01 PM

Originally posted by DLSJ5
On this I have to slightly disagree with you brother, if anything you'll get more wheelspin off the line with the K04 cause it's power is mostly down low, while the 28RS is mostly mid to up top and once the car is already moving, although wheelspin will still exsist. A friendly run with an M3 or Evo usually will take place on the highway, where wheelspin is not an issue. Stay tuned on the GT28RS thingy.

Drew is correct, K04 puts down peek torque much lower in RPM range than GT28R or RS.
This issue can be minimized with LSD and some good tires.

**DLSJ5** · 02-22-2005 06:01 PM

Originally posted by Awadd9
Drew,
If I lived in SoCal I would probably pass on the Quattro as well.

Do you have any concern about traction once you are up and running with the big ponies??

Andrew

Off the line for sure, but once the car is moving it's not really an issue. Even B5 S4's spin all 4 tires off the line, albiet much less. The VW's and SRT's seem to do it well, we'll see.

The PS2's do help quite a bit though.

**Saturnine** · 02-22-2005 06:02 PM

I would have gotten the Avant with fwd if it was possible..

**DLSJ5** · 02-22-2005 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Saturnine
I would have gotten the Avant with fwd if it was possible..

John, you're joking right? Although the Avant does weigh quite bit yeah?

**Vortec4800** · 02-22-2005 06:59 PM

Originally posted by DLSJ5
On this I have to slightly disagree with you brother, if anything you'll get more wheelspin off the line with the K04 cause it's power is mostly down low, while the 28RS is mostly mid to up top and once the car is already moving, although wheelspin will still exsist. A friendly run with an M3 or Evo usually will take place on the highway, where wheelspin is not an issue. Stay tuned on the GT28RS thingy.

Interesting, I didn't know that...

I might actually just stay with the K04 even still - mostly because the thing I hate even more than loss of traction is turbo lag, even when it can help out in this case. I might stay with the K04 just to get more power down low, which is where I really miss it.

But a big turbo is way, way (way) down the line so I'm not to worried about all that yet, and haven't really researched my options too much.