Some dyno graphs.........

[csaudis4]

It's not about right or wrong on those crank numbers. In fact, you can't say if it's right or wrong about the crank numbers at all. Those numbers are coming from a formula, so you can only either agree or disagree with the formula. And if you think they are fooling around, just ignore the crank numbers, cuz those are calculated/corrected values, calculation involves errors all the time. Just read the actual wheel power, and stop messing with yourself ;p

Uh, it seems that no one cares to look at this question (o_O)

But I'm still curious...

[cohare]

I dont care how many crank horsepower, how many wheel horsepower, if its better than an M3, I just want to know:

WHEN AND WHERE CAN I BUY ONE????!!??!??

Great job APR I look forward to being one of your many customers hopefully very soon!

[NWS4Guy]

I dont care how many crank horsepower, how many wheel horsepower, if its better than an M3, I just want to know:

WHEN AND WHERE CAN I BUY ONE????!!??!??

Great job APR I look forward to being one of your many customers hopefully very soon!

http://www.goapr.com/dealer/

Closest to you looks like maybe up in Aberdeen

[cohare]

I can do aberdeen but the wait is going to be painful. Late sept at the earliest right?

[NWS4Guy]

You'll have to ask APR, but that sounds about like what they have been saying unless things change.

[Nadrealista]

Our dyno really doesn't work that way. We can't adjust it to read higher or lower. We can change the sweep time though. We setup our dyno so if it takes about 20 seconds to go from 1500 to 7000 RPM in 4th gear on the street, it takes that long to do the dyno pull. (numbers are just examples)



I agree. Excellent measurement, but what about tire selection, package options which add weight, driver skill, weather conditions, track conditions, winter vs summer, humid vs dry. So many variables which alter the results! It would drive you insane trying to make it perfect.




The Supercharger can create those boost levels on a smaller engine but it cannot make 21PSI on a 3.0L engine.



Boost on a supercharger will increase towards redline where it's spinning the fastest. Before you start to see big gains on our dyno graphs the charger is bypassing very little.



We are increasing boost in the midrange, but the amount left on the table is VERY tiny. Most of the gains will come from that little bit of boost, air fuel, timing and a few other adjustments.



0-60 is hard. 60-130 is a bit easier since it removes driver launching skills. Still, what do you report? What is fair? DSG vs 6MT? What Package? Winter or summer? Remember, you guys are smart. You look for the delta, but not everyone is smart. If we do a 60-130 pull on a fully loaded S4 with sports diff and 6MT during a 100+ hot and humid Alabama day, someone else will just post a lower time using a DSG w/ a stripped down S4 on a cool crisp winter day. People will look for lowest number and hold it as the definitive answer on performance.



Good discussion so far. :)

so smaller pulley will allow supercharger to make max boost earlier allowing for higher gains in the mid-range?

[NickS]

so smaller pulley will allow supercharger to make max boost earlier allowing for higher gains in the mid-range?

I asked that same question a long time ago and never got a reply..... *tracks thread*

[kailuaboy]

yes but it sounds like it will make the charger spin faster than its max rpm at redline. this would not be a good thing as it wouldnt be efficient and may damage the charger its self.

[Arin@APR]

so smaller pulley will allow supercharger to make max boost earlier allowing for higher gains in the mid-range?

We can't share full details quite yet. :-p

[Rhytid]

yes but it sounds like it will make the charger spin faster than its max rpm at redline. this would not be a good thing as it wouldnt be efficient and may damage the charger its self.

From what I gather through the posts put up by APR, it seems like the only way to get any significant low/mid range improvement would be with a larger SC as the current one is being worked near the max already in the low/mid ranges.

[StratJohn]

I believe the pulley aspect was addressed quite simply: Reducing the pulley size will spin the SC faster, and thus yes, offer more, sooner... but... a smaller pulley may not be feasible on ours. It is already quite small. And it may not be feasible based on maximum component limits.

[cohare]

You'll have to ask APR, but that sounds about like what they have been saying unless things change.

well I guess its not that far away and my S4 already blows my pcar away (in a strait line at least) so I guess it could be worse.

[L0U]

an intake design that allows the air to reach the charger at a higher pressure (less restrictive) can improve the chargers output pressure, leaving a wee bit more on the table with the bypass fully closed. Perhaps apr is working to get a wee bit from an intake, and a wee bit off an additional 1000rpm of blower speed when redlined.

Sept is in 7 days, so put in some OT allready.

[primetime]

so smaller pulley will allow supercharger to make max boost earlier allowing for higher gains in the mid-range?

Yes... and additional tuning....

[Nadrealista]

yes but it sounds like it will make the charger spin faster than its max rpm at redline. this would not be a good thing as it wouldnt be efficient and may damage the charger its self.

oh comon we do this with K03's :-)

[marty was here]

we are on pulleys

AGAIN? REALLY?

[madmadS4]

yeah - regarding pulleys, apparently APR is "looking into it" and Stasis has tentative plans to make a smaller pulley available

[NickS]

yeah - regarding pulleys, apparently APR is "looking into it" and Stasis has tentative plans to make a smaller pulley available

Which IMO is the only reason APR is looking into it. They stated many, many times in the forums that a smaller pulley wasn't needed and couldn't be done. Now all of the sudden they're looking into it because a competitor has one. I think it's going to be more like putting an under drive pulley on. You will see insignificant gains BUT people will buy it because they have money burning a hole in their pockets and they want ever single mod they can get their hands on.

[NWS4Guy]

Which IMO is the only reason APR is looking into it. They stated many, many times in the forums that a smaller pulley wasn't needed and couldn't be done. Now all of the sudden they're looking into it because a competitor has one. I think it's going to be more like putting an under drive pulley on. You will see insignificant gains BUT people will buy it because they have money burning a hole in their pockets and they want ever single mod they can get their hands on.

[CBRmatt600]

I dont care how many crank horsepower, how many wheel horsepower, if its better than an M3, I just want to know:

WHEN AND WHERE CAN I BUY ONE????!!??!??

Great job APR I look forward to being one of your many customers hopefully very soon!

I want your 993.

[cohare]

I want your 993.

Its the best car I have owned by far, including a highly modded 01 911 turbo. I have thought about selling and buying a already prepped track car rather than spending all this cash but, the color and condition is so hard to find I cant bring myself to do it.

[thebishman]

Guys, I'm no dyno expert but am I missing something here?

The beauty of a S/C versus a turbocharged car is that as soon as one puts your foot down, one should experience (relatively) instantaneous increases in both torque and hp; yes? In my viewing of the dyno plots with the new APR software, it appears that all of the relavent gains come after approximately 5500rpm. Whilst those gains are substantial, who goes around launching the car at 5500 rpm all the time during normal driving? Wouldn't we all want (much) more hp and especially torque when putting your foot down at 'normal' rpms, like 2K and above, like when pulling away from a traffic light and all of a sudden you realise you want to gain some distance from the guy besides you, or when driving on the interstate at 70 mph and you want to pass someone without changing down three gears? Sure if you're drag racing, dumping the clutch at 5500rpm 'maybe' appropriate; (although God help your clutch life), but I'm not sure it's so easy to stay in that rev range during normal spirited driving. In fact on a road course, having so much extra hp and torque come in so abruptly at such high rpms can and will make the car more difficult to drive/balance.

Hopefully I've got it completely wrong and someone can assure me that there are substanial hp and torque gains much lower down the rpm range than 5500 rpm rendering the software update far more useful imho. I have been loooking forward to the APR tune, and just want to make sure that it will suit my needs for this car, which is my DD.
TIA for any help understanding

[NWS4Guy]

In reading the entire thread, and ensuing discussion we have had over the last 5 pages, you would glean that the SC is sized (barely) appropriately for the displacement size of the engine.

As such, it is already making as much boost as it can, and funneling 100% of that into the engine prior to ~5,000RPM. APR or any other tuner cannot magically make boost happen anywhere anytime. Pre-5K RPMs, APR was still able to squeak out a littl here and there with changes to things like vavle overlap, timing, and other small adjustments over stock. Post-5K RPMs, the bypass valve starts to close and bleed off boost. This is where APR was able to make the most headway, closing off this vavle to keep the boost going into the engine.

[jeffc31337]

Guys, I'm no dyno expert but am I missing something here?

The beauty of a S/C versus a turbocharged car is that as soon as one puts your foot down, one should experience (relatively) instantaneous increases in both torque and hp; yes? In my viewing of the dyno plots with the new APR software, it appears that all of the relavent gains come after approximately 5500rpm. Whilst those gains are substantial, who goes around launching the car at 5500 rpm all the time during normal driving? Wouldn't we all want (much) more hp and especially torque when putting your foot down at 'normal' rpms, like 2K and above, like when pulling away from a traffic light and all of a sudden you realise you want to gain some distance from the guy besides you, or when driving on the interstate at 70 mph and you want to pass someone without changing down three gears? Sure if you're drag racing, dumping the clutch at 5500rpm 'maybe' appropriate; (although God help your clutch life), but I'm not sure it's so easy to stay in that rev range during normal spirited driving. In fact on a road course, having so much extra hp and torque come in so abruptly at such high rpms can and will make the car more difficult to drive/balance.

Hopefully I've got it completely wrong and someone can assure me that there are substanial hp and torque gains much lower down the rpm range than 5500 rpm rendering the software update far more useful imho. I have been loooking forward to the APR tune, and just want to make sure that it will suit my needs for this car, which is my DD.
TIA for any help understanding

The supercharger does give you instantaneous boost and torque ** the reason the APR tuned car doesn't have more of it is simply a matter of physics in that the supercharger cannot create substantially more boost than with the stock tune down low. This is due to both the size of the supercharger and the size of the pulley driving it.

There aren't turbocharger like gains in the mid range but I wouldn't call a consistent 10-20 lbft of torque nothing. I would also disagree that the extra top end would throw off balance ** If you read the dyno chart the torque curve still continues to fall off from peak output; it just falls off much slower allowing the much higher HP numbers. I agree that that difference chart make it look like an old b series honda where vtec just kicked in but if you look at the torque output you still see a nice linear curve!

[marty was here]

in reading the entire thread, and ensuing discussion we have had over the last 5 pages, you would glean that the sc is sized (barely) appropriately for the displacement size of the engine.

As such, it is already making as much boost as it can, and funneling 100% of that into the engine prior to ~5,000rpm. Apr or any other tuner cannot magically make boost happen anywhere anytime. Pre-5k rpms, apr was still able to squeak out a littl here and there with changes to things like vavle overlap, timing, and other small adjustments over stock. Post-5k rpms, the bypass valve starts to close and bleed off boost. This is where apr was able to make the most headway, closing off this vavle to keep the boost going into the engine.

no, wrong, waaaahahahaha

pulleys are better

[primetime]

no, wrong, waaaahahahaha

pulleys are better

A 2.55ish pulley will yield as much gain down low as the current displayed APR tune results, up top minimal gains....

[marty was here]

A 2.55ish pulley will yield as much gain down low as the current displayed APR tune results, up top minimal gains....

waaaaahahahahaha

[L0U]

ask anyone that drives the b8. It has lots on the bottom, and thats why it gets the best of the bmw....but on the mid to top it gives up the grunt. The top is exactly where it is lacking. Day to day stuff it has all the balls it needs....the moment the dsg kicksdown for revs it will have 70 more hp vs. being mushy. I think the change in feel would be substantial. Car feels slow with the taper off, although it is fast, but with this top end, it will feel fast and be faster.

[primetime]

waaaaahahahahaha

LOL.... Will see soon enough....

[compguy]

[QUOTE=Arin@APR;5601807]O

I agree. Excellent measurement, but what about tire selection, package options which add weight, driver skill, weather conditions, track conditions, winter vs summer, humid vs dry. So many variables which alter the results! It would drive you insane trying to make it perfect.


That's an easy one. Take a stock car, run it down the quarter mile 3 times and take an average. Pull over, flash the new tune. Wait a half hour for it to cool off and run it again, 3 times and take an average. Same day, same car, same track, same tires, same driver, etc. Based on the way the car launches and with a DSG, I'd bet it runs really consistent. But still you'd wrap it with the standard disclaimers around variances and such but IMHO this would tell me everything that I'd want to know.

[NWS4Guy]

A 2.55ish pulley will yield as much gain down low as the current displayed APR tune results, up top minimal gains....

You know that the pulley spins within a few percent of max RPM at engine redline right? danger zone!

[compguy]

[QUOTE=compguy;5610217]

O

I agree. Excellent measurement, but what about tire selection, package options which add weight, driver skill, weather conditions, track conditions, winter vs summer, humid vs dry. So many variables which alter the results! It would drive you insane trying to make it perfect.


That's an easy one. Take a stock car, run it down the quarter mile 3 times and take an average. Pull over, flash the new tune. Wait a half hour for it to cool off and run it again, 3 times and take an average. Same day, same car, same track, same tires, same driver, etc. Based on the way the car launches and with a DSG, I'd bet it runs really consistent. But still you'd wrap it with the standard disclaimers around variances and such but IMHO this would tell me everything that I'd want to know.

For shits and giggles, bring an MTM Cantronic with you too and bolt that sucker on and see what an extra "97 HP" nets you in the 1/4.

[csaudis4]

Guys, I'm no dyno expert but am I missing something here?

The beauty of a S/C versus a turbocharged car is that as soon as one puts your foot down, one should experience (relatively) instantaneous increases in both torque and hp; yes? In my viewing of the dyno plots with the new APR software, it appears that all of the relavent gains come after approximately 5500rpm. Whilst those gains are substantial, who goes around launching the car at 5500 rpm all the time during normal driving? Wouldn't we all want (much) more hp and especially torque when putting your foot down at 'normal' rpms, like 2K and above, like when pulling away from a traffic light and all of a sudden you realise you want to gain some distance from the guy besides you, or when driving on the interstate at 70 mph and you want to pass someone without changing down three gears? Sure if you're drag racing, dumping the clutch at 5500rpm 'maybe' appropriate; (although God help your clutch life), but I'm not sure it's so easy to stay in that rev range during normal spirited driving. In fact on a road course, having so much extra hp and torque come in so abruptly at such high rpms can and will make the car more difficult to drive/balance.

Hopefully I've got it completely wrong and someone can assure me that there are substanial hp and torque gains much lower down the rpm range than 5500 rpm rendering the software update far more useful imho. I have been loooking forward to the APR tune, and just want to make sure that it will suit my needs for this car, which is my DD.
TIA for any help understanding

Let me know when you go to BHR, lol, I'm heading to their shop too!!! Or are you using different dealer than BHR?

[NickS]

[QUOTE=compguy;5610217]

O

I agree. Excellent measurement, but what about tire selection, package options which add weight, driver skill, weather conditions, track conditions, winter vs summer, humid vs dry. So many variables which alter the results! It would drive you insane trying to make it perfect.


That's an easy one. Take a stock car, run it down the quarter mile 3 times and take an average. Pull over, flash the new tune. Wait a half hour for it to cool off and run it again, 3 times and take an average. Same day, same car, same track, same tires, same driver, etc. Based on the way the car launches and with a DSG, I'd bet it runs really consistent. But still you'd wrap it with the standard disclaimers around variances and such but IMHO this would tell me everything that I'd want to know.

I have openly volunteered to drive to APR and allow them to use my car. It's 100% stock, S-Tronic and would fit the bill for this test. Run the test stock and record data. Run the car flashed and record data. Done.

I've gotten nothing but Crickets on my end however! ;)

[John4378]

[QUOTE=NickS;5611667]

I have openly volunteered to drive to APR and allow them to use my car. It's 100% stock, S-Tronic and would fit the bill for this test. Run the test stock and record data. Run the car flashed and record data. Done.

I've gotten nothing but Crickets on my end however! ;)

That's because you live in BFE Cypress, lol.

[NickS]

[QUOTE=John4378;5611717]

That's because you live in BFE Cypress, lol.

I've been to APR in the past for their BBQ.... not sure why my location would have anything to do with it? Especially when I am doing this on my own dime and time?

[marty was here]

[QUOTE=compguy;5611061]

For shits and giggles, bring an MTM Cantronic with you too and bolt that sucker on and see what an extra "97 HP" nets you in the 1/4.

you;ve been here since January?

[John4378]

[QUOTE=NickS;5611731]

I've been to APR in the past for their BBQ.... not sure why my location would have anything to do with it? Especially when I am doing this on my own dime and time?

Sorry, it was just a joke. You didn't get it...let's move on.

[riegeraudi]

I am willing to bet APR will come out with a larger supercharger and a hood to fit the charger under it. I don't think you can just upgrade the charger and not the hood.

[NWS4Guy]

I am willing to bet APR will come out with a larger supercharger and a hood to fit the charger under it. I don't think you can just upgrade the charger and not the hood.

I agree 100% on the larger SC. The trick will be if they can get a package similar (or perhaps use the stock one) for the R1650, which is the next size up same TVS style SC from Eaton. If that bad boy has the same hieght and just is a little onger or something we might be in for another less than normally expensive big upgrade mod Any idea how close the stock SC comes to the hood inside?