Some dyno graphs.........

[Arin@APR]

Got it. Thanks Arin. How many data points are collected in the series in order to make that graph and how do you choose which runs to display? Is the standard to usually plot current vs. previous run or is it at the discretion of the tech to choose which runs are comped and ultimately displayed?

When I make the charts I used a data point at every 50 rpm's. All of the data in the chart is an average of every run we did on the dyno during testing. So, if we do 6 pulls, the numbers I show are an average of all 6 pulls.

[madmadS4]

What exactly is fishy?

We said the car made 377 All wheel HP using SAE correction. If you were to assume 23% drive train loss (which many people seem to feel is correct), you get 489 hp at the crank.

377 / .77 = 489.

the 7th chart - you show 438 hp for the stock+your catback exhaust (assume 23% drive train loss). I really don't think the S4 + any exhaust can produce 438 hp.

please correct me if I'm wrong!

[Arin@APR]

the 7th chart - you show 438 hp for the stock+your catback exhaust (assume 23% drive train loss). I really don't think the S4 + any exhaust can produce 438 hp.

please correct me if I'm wrong!

That's fine. I'm not saying it's correct or incorrect. It's just an estimate using the typical '23%' number so many tuners claim for a quattro car.

Here is what it did at all 4 wheels with the stock tune and APR exhaust SAE corrected: 337 AWHP.
Here is what it did at all 4 wheels with the stock tune and APR exhaust Uncorrected: 322 AWHP.

What should the drivetrain loss be? What should that be at the crank? Since you have the all wheel numbers, you can choose.

[Brooklyn]

And here's where the APR guys regret even posting this stuff because they knew they'd get all sorts of retarded guesses and conclusions with only the limited info they feel comfortable releasing...Why don't some of you guys chill out and wait for the official news release!?

[Alkivar]

And here's where the APR guys regret even posting this stuff because they knew they'd get all sorts of retarded guesses and conclusions with only the limited info they feel comfortable releasing...Why don't some of you guys chill out and wait for the official news release!?

x2

calm down folks... APR is usually quite forthcoming with data... just give them time

P.S. APR make tune for 3.2FSI pretty please!!!

[Arin@APR]

We're fine with all the questions. It gives us time to discuss and hopefully educate the masses. :)

[Anthony]

We're fine with all the questions. It gives us time to discuss and hopefully educate the masses. :)

Yeah, it's almost like you're used to the forum fervor... Have you been doing this for awhile?

[zerinA4]

I absolutely cannot wait. Need to go hook up the vbox and get some of my own baseline numbers!

[madmadS4]

hey I'm a demanding customer. I don't part with my money easily. I've dismissed all the crank-hp charts... they can't be right. focusing on the delta though - I'm still quite excited....

[jimmyrecluse]

This is big news...

[S-Fore]

yes, cool indeed that this is going to drop in the near future. As for all of the questions regarding the dyno claims...........at the end of the day your either going to drop the money on a tune or not, bottom line. 10hp or 120hp, and it will be priced accordingly.

[S5noob]

Like rx7ven said, when the tune is finalized, do we need to ship out the ECU to you? How is the flashing done?

thanks APR. good work. are you able to share with us if this will be an OBDII upgrade or will we need to ship out our ECU?

[NWS4Guy]

Like rx7ven said, when the tune is finalized, do we need to ship out the ECU to you? How is the flashing done?

http://www.goapr.com/dealer/

Shows a couple of APR shops in Singapore, you can just drop by and they will most likely be able to do the work for you.

[S5noob]

Just wondering about downtime if the ECU itself needs to be sent versus an ECU swap that the dealer might have on hand.

[Joel@APR]

To clarify the torque concerns:

Unlike turbocharging, a belt driven supercharger's air flow is solely dependent on engine speed (and therefore supercharger speed). This particular supercharger is capable of displacing 1.32L of air every revolution. With a little algebra and several unit conversions you can get a rough estimate of mass air flow and what the engine's torque curve should look like. Turbocharger speed, on the other hand, is based on exhaust volume and velocity. Therefore, it's possible to ramp pressure very high at a low rpm and get an immediate surge of torque. There's no question that this feels excellent on the street and certainly leads to a lot of software sells. However, the thing to remember in this case is that Audi intended the car to be torquey from the beginning and a simple Vag-Com log will show you that the bypass valve is almost completely closed near peak torque rpm. So everyone needs to remember that the car makes very impressive torque numbers stock so an 18lb-ft gain at the wheels is very significant.

As already mentioned the impressiveness comes from the car's immensely widened torque band. It's immediately transformed from a car you once short shifted to a car whose rev limiter has to remind you to shift

[Keith@APR]

http://www.goapr.com/dealer/

Shows a couple of APR shops in Singapore, you can just drop by and they will most likely be able to do the work for you.

Everyone should also expect a slow release. Meaning we will control installations in house for early adopters until we are comfortable with the security of the technology.

As things sit currently and to my best knowledge, the new challenges brought about by the newest ecu's is certainly going to
limit the availability of competing products, at least for a period of time. We would be foolish not to understand that we need to be certain we don't open the doors for others as the complexity of this ecu type is beyond the average tuner and we have also invested perhaps more resources in this ecu than any other in our history.

The ecu upgrade industry is really going to be shaken out in the short term and for right now, we need to be able to protect our development achievements in order to insure available resources for the next challenge.

I can pretty much guarantee the good ole days of the S4 are back as far as the potential of the power plant, but only a few will accomplish satisfactory access.

[Keith@APR]

To clarify the torque concerns:

Unlike turbocharging, a belt driven supercharger's air flow is solely dependent on engine speed (and therefore supercharger speed). This particular supercharger is capable of displacing 1.32L of air every revolution. With a little algebra and several unit conversions you can get a rough estimate of mass air flow and what the engine's torque curve should look like. Turbocharger speed, on the other hand, is based on exhaust volume and velocity. Therefore, it's possible to ramp pressure very high at a low rpm and get an immediate surge of torque. There's no question that this feels excellent on the street and certainly leads to a lot of software sells. However, the thing to remember in this case is that Audi intended the car to be torquey from the beginning and a simple Vag-Com log will show you that the bypass valve is almost completely closed near peak torque rpm. So everyone needs to remember that the car makes very impressive torque numbers stock so an 18lb-ft gain at the wheels is very significant.

As already mentioned the impressiveness comes from the car's immensely widened torque band. It's immediately transformed from a car you once short shifted to a car whose rev limiter has to remind you to shift

Ladies and Gents,

Allow me to introduce the man directly responsible for a large part of the results......

Thanks for coming in Joel!

[kailuaboy]

so 489 is crank (if the 23% is right) plus high flow cats and a stage 2 or 2+ tune might get us over 500 chp....wow just wow god I love this motor lets hope its as durable as it is powerful now

[NickS]

Nice.... but really, why is it you can't show a totally stock car with just software? I'm old school.... if you're going to show me something like this I want to see the software and software alone on a car. Having an exhaust free's up exhaust flow and can skew results. Even if those results are minimal.

I hope that at release you do show gains for stock and stock alone.

[Keith@APR]

I hope that at release you do show gains for stock and stock alone.

Of course! This is what we had ready.

We are trying to update people about progress on a weekly basis so bear with us please.

[NWS4Guy]

Thanks for coming by and posting Joel - amazing work btw

[NickS]

Of course! This is what we had ready.

We are trying to update people about progress on a weekly basis so bear with us please.

Cool.... thanks for the update. It's exciting for sure. My only real disappointment is the lack of torque increase. I don't really spend a huge amount of time over 5k rpm.

[Keith@APR]

so 489 is crank (if the 23% is right) plus high flow cats and a stage 2 or 2+ tune might get us over 500 chp....wow just wow god I love this motor lets hope its as durable as it is powerful now

23% is just as correct as any other percent unless you magically pick the real one, which is a curve anyways and not a fixed percentage.

We will use less for future graphs that we feel are easily repeatable and as accurate as possible.

The wheel numbers are accurate and the deltas are what really matter if what you want to know is what it really means to the performance of the car.

Don't get caught up in absolutes.

[Keith@APR]

Cool.... thanks for the update. It's exciting for sure. My only real disappointment is the lack of torque increase. I don't really spend a huge amount of time over 5k rpm.

Simply put, it's a supercharged car. It seems the available psi at fully closed bypass valve wasn't a dramatic amount more than stock at those rpms.

It really makes a huge increase in boost up top.

And it's early still in the life of the engine. There will be more to be had in the future. There always is!

[kailuaboy]

23% is just as correct as any other percent unless you magically pick the real one, which is a curve anyways and not a fixed percentage.

We will use less for future graphs that we feel are easily repeatable and as accurate as possible.

The wheel numbers are accurate and the deltas are what really matter if what you want to know is what it really means to the performance of the car.

Don't get caught up in absolutes.

shhh i like the 500 number but yes i do get what you are saying.....the wheel numbers are very nice i will be inline as soon as you have a date for me to line up

[pyknosis]

Keith, can you comment on any testing you did with S-Tronic cars? Obviously losses are going to be higher, but I'm more concerned with the durability of the transmission since your numbers exceed the rated limits of the box. I'm not an expert but I think the VW DSG people have done fine exceeding the limits, but that's a different trans. I'm seriously considering jumping on your tune but don't want to end up shelling out for a new trans.

[Keith@APR]

shhh i like the 500 number but yes i do get what you are saying.....the wheel numbers are very nice i will be inline as soon as you have a date for me to line up

Hehe! 500 it is!

[Keith@APR]

Keith, can you comment on any testing you did with S-Tronic cars? Obviously losses are going to be higher, but I'm more concerned with the durability of the transmission since your numbers exceed the rated limits of the box. I'm not an expert but I think the VW DSG people have done fine exceeding the limits, but that's a different trans. I'm seriously considering jumping on your tune but don't want to end up shelling out for a new trans.

I don't have any conclusive info to share but we will address that in the future as the release nears in order to provide a recommendation.

[awhk82]

Subscribed... these are some really good news and figures!

[madmadS4]

23% is just as correct as any other percent unless you magically pick the real one, which is a curve anyways and not a fixed percentage.

Exactly - its not a fixed percentage. Drive train loss scales with RPM for some drivetrain components. However, drive train loss stays constant with RPM for other drivetrain components. The total drive train loss is a combination of both the dynamic and static losses.

net-net - I'd avoid using any type of conversion whatsoever. especially on the S4 with the many differentials etc.

[leviathan18]

wow just wow

I knew this car had potential, now we are missing cats and headers from APR :P and clutch from DXD


is there any gains to be made on the cooling side ?

I'm not versed with this engine, is there any short comings on the fuel side, like the 2.0 TFSI, specially HPFP and injectors?

with W/M this thing must fly

[dims]

Keith@APR,

do you have ECU upgrade for HFC in development?

we will see APR RSC CBE + 034 HFC downpipes dyno very soon....
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...i!!!!!!!/page2

[borutp]

Keith, can you tell us the estimated top speed ? 300km/h ? :)

[csauer52]

When I make the charts I used a data point at every 50 rpm's. All of the data in the chart is an average of every run we did on the dyno during testing. So, if we do 6 pulls, the numbers I show are an average of all 6 pulls.

So if I understand correctly, the plot is the average of 6 runs at 50 rpm intervals while the peak #'s cited under the graph are simply the max delta between the high/low points of the data series found ~6800rpm's?

So, taking this one step further, the graph would suggest we can expect to see an average tq increase of 20 between 2400 & 4700 rpm and average hp increases of roughly the same amount over the identical area of the curve. Then once you go above 5500 the gains for both are huge over stock.

So, taking this to my uneducated logical conclusion, from a driveability perspective, we really shouldn't expect to feel much difference until we hit 5500rpm's at which point she will pull like a bat out of hell. This would tend to suggest she won't feel so flat in 4th,5th,6th gears avove 5000 like she does stock.

This would also seem to suggest that the time interval between 5500 & redline would be dramatically shortened. Do you think DSG owners would have an advantage in this regard due to the ability to shift quicker?

Thanks!

[b6bydesign04]

Thanks for graphs, very exciting news indeed. Congrats on all the hard work!

Everyone should also expect a slow release. Meaning we will control installations in house for early adopters until we are comfortable with the security of the technology.

Hmmm, sounds like the perfect excuse to drive down to AL and check out the facilities, haha. Congrats again guys! Thanks for stepping in and educating everyone as well.

[Proogz]

If I am going to trust any of the graphs that have been released on this car when it relates to HP/TQ numbers I can say that APR is probably one of the closest to hitting the true real stock numbers that the car puts out. Yes I know they did stock runs with their exhaust but if you factor that out you can sorta really get a good estimate on what it really is running at.

93Octane map is incredible. 489CHP? 377AWHP? that is pretty intense. I was not even expecting anywhere near that number chip wise for this car. It now puts our cars in a whole different league chipped.. Easily with the Tune and the Exhaust you will be shitting over Stock M3s due to the massive increase in gains pass 5200RPM.

Can expect that 91 will be that magic 430-440CHP that we all have been talking about?

[primetime]

We haven't released boost figures yet but as soon as I'm able to post them up, I'll show everyone what it does. :
BTW, the charger is already running near it's max RPM at redline so it's not quite as simple as throwing on a really small pulley for more boost.

I appreciate the information and everything that your company is doing and will be one of the first to get your tune! I will respectfully disagree with the pulley change piece though.

[primetime]

If I am going to trust any of the graphs that have been released on this car when it relates to HP/TQ numbers I can say that APR is probably one of the closest to hitting the true real stock numbers that the car puts out. Yes I know they did stock runs with their exhaust but if you factor that out you can sorta really get a good estimate on what it really is running at.

93Octane map is incredible. 489CHP? 377AWHP? that is pretty intense. I was not even expecting anywhere near that number chip wise for this car. It now puts our cars in a whole different league chipped.. Easily with the Tune and the Exhaust you will be shitting over Stock M3s due to the massive increase in gains pass 5200RPM.

Can expect that 91 will be that magic 430-440CHP that we all have been talking about?

I'm more excited to hear the 100 octane numbers since I can get it at 3 stations within 15 minutes of my house..... weeeeeee

[Proogz]

One question. May be an extremely retarded one also. So sorry if its just dumb to ask this.

I assume that the 91 Octane map will be safe for daily driving if we decide to run it on a consistent basis right? Same would technically be for the 93 or no?

I understand we have a choice to run the car stock if we want and so on. However if we do decide to run on either 91 or 93 consistently it would not drastically decrease engine life or create any internal issues with the car? and when I say this I do not mean I am going to run 91 or 93 consistently and go on the streets gunning it 24/7 on the Redline. I understand internally things can happen however, I am just trying to gather a general knowledge of the tune and how it will effect engine life if anything.

[Proogz]

I'm more excited to hear the 100 octane numbers since I can get it at 3 stations within 15 minutes of my house..... weeeeeee

I am excited to see what the 100 Octane numbers will be. However in my case where I cannot find that unless I go to the track, the highest I can obtain is at Sunoco which is Ultra 94. So I am more focused on that 489/377 number if anything and more excited on seeing that than anything else. I mean I can say I am more excited to see the 91 numbers than the 100.