Some dyno graphs.........

[NickS]

I agree 100% on the larger SC. The trick will be if they can get a package similar (or perhaps use the stock one) for the R1650, which is the next size up same TVS style SC from Eaton. If that bad boy has the same hieght and just is a little onger or something we might be in for another less than normally expensive big upgrade mod Any idea how close the stock SC comes to the hood inside?

Honestly, I'm surprised that no one has actually just called up Eaton and asked if the next S/C size up has the same mounting points, dimensions, etc that our S/C has. If it's a direct fit.... it should be just a matter of putting it on and tuning it. Right?! Even if it flow too much air for the 3.0 it would probably give us more torque and more HP without actually using it to full capacity.

[primetime]

Honestly, I'm surprised that no one has actually just called up Eaton and asked if the next S/C size up has the same mounting points, dimensions, etc that our S/C has. If it's a direct fit.... it should be just a matter of putting it on and tuning it. Right?! Even if it flow too much air for the 3.0 it would probably give us more torque and more HP without actually using it to full capacity.

LOL! Eaton doesn't actually sell to consumers... they sell to OEMs and a hand full of distributors like Roush, etc. I had dinner with a few of the engineers a while back and didn't think to ask them about the packaging..... I may have to look into that... I know the R1650 is designed for as small as a 3.0 liter motor and as big as a 5.2 liter motor.... Our blower is designed for a 2.2 - 4.2 liter motor.... cough pulley change cough..... LOL

[NickS]

LOL! Eaton doesn't actually sell to consumers... they sell to OEMs and a hand full of distributors like Roush, etc. I had dinner with a few of the engineers a while back and didn't think to ask them about the packaging..... I may have to look into that... I know the R1650 is designed for as small as a 3.0 liter motor and as big as a 5.2 liter motor.... Our blower is designed for a 2.2 - 4.2 liter motor.... cough pulley change cough..... LOL

Not saying BUY from Eaton but they would certainly be able to give you specifications on the overall size based on the OEM unit and cross reference that with other S/C they make that would be larger.

[NWS4Guy]

I might call them if I get a few minutes, they are usually pretty open with talking about their products to anyone, they don't have anything to hide, though they will only sell to partners, not end consumers.

[thebishman]

Let me know when you go to BHR, lol, I'm heading to their shop too!!! Or are you using different dealer than BHR?

Well as I said the S4 is my DD. As such I really was hoping for a tune that increased the available hp and torque from 'normal' levels of rpms so as to be more 'urgent' during daily driving; not just at the drag strip. So I probably will keep it OEM at this time. BHR is a great outfit though.

For the road course I have an '09 GT-R with a very conservative 484 hp/518 lb ft torque at the wheels.

Bish

[csaudis4]

Well as I said the S4 is my DD. As such I really was hoping for a tune that increased the available hp and torque from 'normal' levels of rpms so as to be more 'urgent' during daily driving; not just at the drag strip. So I probably will keep it OEM at this time. BHR is a great outfit though.

For the road course I have an '09 GT-R with a very conservative 484 hp/518 lb ft torque at the wheels.

Bish

O_O lol, well, in that case, I bet you won't be urgent to squeeze some power out of the S4. You got a fun toy already!

[TweetsS4Estate]

no, wrong, waaaahahahaha

pulleys are better

Agreed, every supercharged platform that I know of uses different pulleys to get the most out of their car. GTPs, "Terminator" Cobras, lightnings, even ZR-1s do it. And to my knowledge the ZR-1 has a similarly designed 4 lobe roots style blower... I have wondered why the pulley hasn't been put out on the market yet...

[L0U]

Those other cars must not of had size restraints on blower size to end up at the blowers max rpm at the same time as the car reached its rev limiter.

Or you can look at it this way....400chp from a 3 litre is allready extracting the most out of a production 3 litre with a warrenty of any other engine out there.....audi left nothing on the table...except an extra 50chp on the high mid/top end.

Bmws have more on the table, because their platform 3.0 has less hp out of a 3.0 litre.....even the "mighty" 335IS with the 3psi extra boost falls short of matching audis output from a 3.0 litre.

No one is lying to you...the current charger is at its limits nearly until 5000rpm in stock form. The margin to improve on this is extremely small...kudos for audi still giving a warrenty on an engine that is maxed out for the normal daily driver who is under 5000rpm most of the time.

Hence 4000lb car beating 3500lb bmw while using awd that eats power, and still manages better mpg. This engine in a 500lb smaller car rwd would be better than anything ever put out for the street from bmw.

oh and the s4 is a huge car in size to boot. A Q7 5000lb beast with the 3.0t does 6.9 0-60....like any 335 engine could do that from the factory.

[CBRmatt600]

Its the best car I have owned by far, including a highly modded 01 911 turbo. I have thought about selling and buying a already prepped track car rather than spending all this cash but, the color and condition is so hard to find I cant bring myself to do it.

I completely understand, I would never get rid of it. I have been looking for a good 993 for years and they are difficult to come by. I have literally never seen one for sale that is the color of yours before, it is a gorgeous car. There is something great about having two seats, a steering wheel, a shifter, and no other gadgets to get in the way of your fun. One of these days I will find what I am looking for.

[madmadS4]

Those other cars must not of had size restraints on blower size to end up at the blowers max rpm at the same time as the car reached its rev limiter.

Or you can look at it this way....400chp from a 3 litre is allready extracting the most out of a production 3 litre with a warrenty of any other engine out there.....audi left nothing on the table...except an extra 50chp on the high mid/top end.

Bmws have more on the table, because their platform 3.0 has less hp out of a 3.0 litre.....even the "mighty" 335IS with the 3psi extra boost falls short of matching audis output from a 3.0 litre.

No one is lying to you...the current charger is at its limits nearly until 5000rpm in stock form. The margin to improve on this is extremely small...kudos for audi still giving a warrenty on an engine that is maxed out for the normal daily driver who is under 5000rpm most of the time.

Hence 4000lb car beating 3500lb bmw while using awd that eats power, and still manages better mpg. This engine in a 500lb smaller car rwd would be better than anything ever put out for the street from bmw.

oh and the s4 is a huge car in size to boot. A Q7 5000lb beast with the 3.0t does 6.9 0-60....like any 335 engine could do that from the factory.

Hang on - 2 months ago I was reading that the SC was leaving a lot on the table - that it was producing 11-12 psi and could go up to 17 psi sustained. Additionally, the R1320 is rated for 3.0 to 4.5 liter engines. What changed??

[NickS]

Agreed, every supercharged platform that I know of uses different pulleys to get the most out of their car. GTPs, "Terminator" Cobras, lightnings, even ZR-1s do it. And to my knowledge the ZR-1 has a similarly designed 4 lobe roots style blower... I have wondered why the pulley hasn't been put out on the market yet...

Maybe because the tuners here are not familiar with super charging whereas the US muscle car tuners are?

[cohare]

I completely understand, I would never get rid of it. I have been looking for a good 993 for years and they are difficult to come by. I have literally never seen one for sale that is the color of yours before, it is a gorgeous car. There is something great about having two seats, a steering wheel, a shifter, and no other gadgets to get in the way of your fun. One of these days I will find what I am looking for.

I appreciate the complement, its arena red, there are a few around. I wasnt that sold on the color at first but, now its really grown on me. I am shocked at all the positive comments i get on it, no matter what is around, 997 Gt3, 997TT, I always get the "man thats got to be the best looking car here".

If you are seriously looking for a 993, there is a black one on rennlist dot cough org that is set up very similar to mine except has 12k in new regeared tranny (I wish I had), 52k miles for only 30k. I honestly thought about selling mine to get it but, couldnt justify.. I probably have 15k additional into mine, so he probably has 25k-30k additional in his..

[CBRmatt600]

I appreciate the complement, its arena red, there are a few around. I wasnt that sold on the color at first but, now its really grown on me. I am shocked at all the positive comments i get on it, no matter what is around, 997 Gt3, 997TT, I always get the "man thats got to be the best looking car here".

If you are seriously looking for a 993, there is a black one on rennlist dot cough org that is set up very similar to mine except has 12k in new regeared tranny (I wish I had), 52k miles for only 30k. I honestly thought about selling mine to get it but, couldnt justify.. I probably have 15k additional into mine, so he probably has 25k-30k additional in his..

Thanks, I will check it out. I am going to be laying down a good chunk of change for a new S4 this winter so my vehicle spending allowance may be cut off for the year. However, they are building a new club track a few miles north of me that is supposed to open soon. Apparently for an $8k initiation fee and a $300 monthly membership, you get your own garage space, and unlimited access to track time. As soon as I jump on that, I am going to be back in the market for a nice track prepped 993.

[PSI]

Maybe because the tuners here are not familiar with super charging whereas the US muscle car tuners are?

Well, for reference, I used to have a 2004 Cobra. I spun that blower well above its RPM limit for most of its life with a 2.73 pulley up top, and a 4lb lower. The car stock made ~9psi, I ran 17psi all day long... 530/530 at the tires, 11.5 @126. However, I couldn't break the 500-mark very easily, I had to get it sent out to Steigemeir to get the blower ported, and a new heat exchanger and the car was an entirely new beast.

I'm sure APR and others will figure out the best combo... the TVS series of blowers are very efficient compared to the old (h)eatons. A pulley will fatten up the low/mid area, perhaps there will be a porting option in the future, maybe a new heat exchanger too. Either way I'm pretty excited about it, considering the great gains we already see with APR.

[cohare]

Thanks, I will check it out. I am going to be laying down a good chunk of change for a new S4 this winter so my vehicle spending allowance may be cut off for the year. However, they are building a new club track a few miles north of me that is supposed to open soon. Apparently for an $8k initiation fee and a $300 monthly membership, you get your own garage space, and unlimited access to track time. As soon as I jump on that, I am going to be back in the market for a nice track prepped 993.

Jesus I would sell my S4 (flame suit on) and buy another track car to have access to that. I may have to move, thats incredible. I am not kidding, where is it?

[marty was here]

Agreed, every supercharged platform that I know of uses different pulleys to get the most out of their car. GTPs, "Terminator" Cobras, lightnings, even ZR-1s do it. And to my knowledge the ZR-1 has a similarly designed 4 lobe roots style blower... I have wondered why the pulley hasn't been put out on the market yet...

idk if you caught it, but i used "waaaaaaahahahahah" as an insult to those that thought the pulley was the answer.

if there is very little boost off of an already minute pulley, what makes you think a smaller pulley is the answer? to do what exactly, move the boost curve down further? theres a bypass, fixing the bypass is where the gains are.

[L0U]

Hang on - 2 months ago I was reading that the SC was leaving a lot on the table - that it was producing 11-12 psi and could go up to 17 psi sustained. Additionally, the R1320 is rated for 3.0 to 4.5 liter engines. What changed??

We were lied to. After seeing the sportec curve, I knew the gains would be all at the top for the most part. I bet the apr is .1 second faster in the 1/4 mile than the mtm...but it will cost a butload less and be user friendly..and upgradeable. The right thing to do would have been using similar dynos, but mtm went the maha route to show gains that were basically bogus. The mtm makes 30 more peak power, and has a larger spread at 7000 too. The apr won't be destroying those numbers, but they have many advantages over the mtm.

It is what it is. If we keep the same blower and just tune...everyone will end up with close to the same result....meaning using all available boost at every rpm, and using the most ignition advance that they can on 91 octane, or other fuel, and with the best fuel curves.

Having 2 dsg S4s run at a 1/4 mile with an mtm tune, and an apr tune...no other mods..it would be pretty close me thinks. .1 second I'd give apr.

[CBRmatt600]

Jesus I would sell my S4 (flame suit on) and buy another track car to have access to that. I may have to move, thats incredible. I am not kidding, where is it?

Enjoy, I know that I am going to.

http://atlantamotorsportspark.net/

It is about 45 miles North of Atlanta, in a small little town called Dawsonville. My significant other is from there, and her family still lives there, so we are looking to move up to this area on the lake so we can have some boating time on the weekends, and I can have some track time whenever I want. I have toured the area that they are building this at, and it looks amazing. Lots of sweeping downhills and uphills. I just have to convince myself that commuting down to Atlanta for work everyday is going to be worth the fun I will have on the weekends, and so far I think that it is.

[primetime]

idk if you caught it, but i used "waaaaaaahahahahah" as an insult to those that thought the pulley was the answer.

if there is very little boost off of an already minute pulley, what makes you think a smaller pulley is the answer? to do what exactly, move the boost curve down further? theres a bypass, fixing the bypass is where the gains are.

waaaaaaahahahahah

[NWS4Guy]

Hang on - 2 months ago I was reading that the SC was leaving a lot on the table - that it was producing 11-12 psi and could go up to 17 psi sustained. Additionally, the R1320 is rated for 3.0 to 4.5 liter engines. What changed??

Just for clarity, the R1320 is rated for 2.2 - 4.2 engines per Eaton, you are confusing the next step up, their R1650, which is for 3.0 - 5.2L, obviously there is a lot more to be had from the SC which has our engine's displacement at the bottom of it's rating scale than one which we fall in the middle of.

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...Maps/index.htm

Eaton sizes these based on general performance and expectations, not the aftermarket tuning crowd who want to wring every last pony possible from their engines. As such, a SC makes more boost the faster it spins, it won't make 21 or even 17PSI, these number will happen near the engine redlne, as this is where the SC is spinning the fastest and making the most boost. This is where APR found and used that power - Once APR was in the ECU and able to see what was what, they found that the bypass valve was not even dumping much or any boost until around the 5K threashold. This is where they got most of the gains, as this is where it was to be had. Anything you see below 5K is hard earned power eeked out by very carful tuning of the engine to be more efficient with what it already had availible that Audi didn't tune it for.

[marty was here]

Just for clarity, the R1320 is rated for 2.2 - 4.2 engines per Eaton, you are confusing the next step up, their R1650, which is for 3.0 - 5.2L, obviously there is a lot more to be had from the SC which has our engine's displacement at the bottom of it's rating scale than one which we fall in the middle of.

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...Maps/index.htm

Eaton sizes these based on general performance and expectations, not the aftermarket tuning crowd who want to wring every last pony possible from their engines. As such, a SC makes more boost the faster it spins, it won't make 21 or even 17PSI, these number will happen near the engine redlne, as this is where the SC is spinning the fastest and making the most boost. This is where APR found and used that power - Once APR was in the ECU and able to see what was what, they found that the bypass valve was not even dumping much or any boost until around the 5K threashold. This is where they got most of the gains, as this is where it was to be had. Anything you see below 5K is hard earned power eeked out by very carful tuning of the engine to be more efficient with what it already had availible that Audi didn't tune it for.

"shut up, anyone can get the real numbers that APR doesnt have the balls to do. let me get my vagina cable, a pulley, and a dyno, brb in 30minutes"
- typical WAAAAAAHAHAHAHA owner

[NWS4Guy]

Look just cause I suck, you don't have to call me out like that. Not cool man.

[marty was here]

you wanna make this person, your shirts ugly

[riegeraudi]

Question is if Audi was willing to max out the performance below 5000rpm what made them not want to push that little bit more in the higher rpms? Wonder if running 100% all the way to redline will overheat or damage the engine or do you think it was mainly for fuel efficiency?

[marty was here]

Question is if Audi was willing to max out the performance below 5000rpm what made them not want to push that little bit more in the higher rpms? Wonder if running 100% all the way to redline will overheat or damage the engine or do you think it was mainly for fuel efficiency?

im wonder why 2.0ts have so much power left on the table? i wonder why audi even puts cats on these cars if there is so much more power left on the table. i wonder what the point of a rs5 would be if audi didnt down tune the s4?

all these questions and more, are answered by the aftermarket.

[Arin@APR]

Question is if Audi was willing to max out the performance below 5000rpm what made them not want to push that little bit more in the higher rpms? Wonder if running 100% all the way to redline will overheat or damage the engine or do you think it was mainly for fuel efficiency?

Audi drops off the performance on the A6 3.0T even earlier.

They do this for many reasons such as future models, not stepping on the toes of other 'higher' output engines, power to weight ratios for insurance, epa ratings and so on.

[zcd2.7t]

Audi drops off the performance on the A6 3.0T even earlier.

Since I'm on the fence regarding an A6 3.0T and an S4 (I know, I know, but I actually do need the extra room fairly often), do you expect your tune to be compatible with the A6's auto trans? Seems like the extra powah at the top end might not be that wonderful for trans longevity....

[Arin@APR]

I'll let you know once we conclude all of our testing.

[s-4man]

Its actually better that the real gains come up top, the motor will last much longer.....unless you race everywhere.
We should see some real nice 1/4 mile times.

[Ynnekdude]

Audi drops off the performance on the A6 3.0T even earlier.

They do this for many reasons such as future models, not stepping on the toes of other 'higher' output engines, power to weight ratios for insurance, epa ratings and so on.

AKA I get bigger gains. Eat that S4 owners.

Arin, will the A6's redline be upped with the chip?

[cohare]

Enjoy, I know that I am going to.

http://atlantamotorsportspark.net/

It is about 45 miles North of Atlanta, in a small little town called Dawsonville. My significant other is from there, and her family still lives there, so we are looking to move up to this area on the lake so we can have some boating time on the weekends, and I can have some track time whenever I want. I have toured the area that they are building this at, and it looks amazing. Lots of sweeping downhills and uphills. I just have to convince myself that commuting down to Atlanta for work everyday is going to be worth the fun I will have on the weekends, and so far I think that it is.

God I am jelous in so many ways, 8k and 200 bones a month seems well worth it, especailly down south where the racing season is much longer.

Only downsides i can see if I lived there are the maintence costs and the internal battle I would go through on a daily basis of why I should go to work instead of the track down the street.

[Arin@APR]

AKA I get bigger gains. Eat that S4 owners.

Arin, will the A6's redline be upped with the chip?

If everything is the same between the two I can't see why we wouldn't make it the same as the S4.

Keep in mind this only really applies to a manual. Non manual transmissions shift points are controlled by the the transmission control unit or TCU.

[CBRmatt600]

God I am jelous in so many ways, 8k and 200 bones a month seems well worth it, especailly down south where the racing season is much longer.

Only downsides i can see if I lived there are the maintence costs and the internal battle I would go through on a daily basis of why I should go to work instead of the track down the street.

Yeah it is going to be rough on the DD, my other option is trying to convince the boss to let me work from home a couple days a week. That however is probably going to result in me dialing in to conference calls from inside of my garage, trying to drown out the sound of open headers passing by.

[Ynnekdude]

If everything is the same between the two I can't see why we wouldn't make it the same as the S4.

Keep in mind this only really applies to a manual. Non manual transmissions shift points are controlled by the the transmission control unit or TCU.

I could swear my tiptronic shifts around 6800... what does the S-tronic shift at?

[NWS4Guy]

If everything is the same between the two I can't see why we wouldn't make it the same as the S4.

Keep in mind this only really applies to a manual. Non manual transmissions shift points are controlled by the the transmission control unit or TCU.

But the issue is that the automatics aren't the same at all. S4 has DSG, and A6 has either CVT or Tip.

[Voltrons_Head]

Ugh. More dyno debate.

Cool shit always seems to happen when I don't check in for a little while. Seems like the group hasn't really made up their mind and there is a disappointed mood in the thread. That's surprising. It really does make sense though now. The drop in boost at the higher rpms is way noticeable after upshifts under hard acceleration by the way the car jerks forward like crazy after the shift. I'm excited to hear some real world feedback.

[riegeraudi]

im wonder why 2.0ts have so much power left on the table? i wonder why audi even puts cats on these cars if there is so much more power left on the table. i wonder what the point of a rs5 would be if audi didnt down tune the s4?

all these questions and more, are answered by the aftermarket.

Still wonder why they produced the RS5 even though the S4 is down tuned. The new RS5 has been hammered by the press and IMO is just not good enough atleast on paper and in reading the reviews. It can't beat BMW's M3 which is much older and a new M3 will be released in 2 years and will even set the bar higher with twin turbo engine. Honestly I think Audi blew it with the new RS5 in terms of handling.

[S-Fore]

Still wonder why they produced the RS5 even though the S4 is down tuned. The new RS5 has been hammered by the press and IMO is just not good enough atleast on paper and in reading the reviews. It can't beat BMW's M3 which is much older and a new M3 will be released in 2 years and will even set the bar higher with twin turbo engine. Honestly I think Audi blew it with the new RS5 in terms of handling.

Somewhat, however still not as bad as Lexus did with the LFA, in every aspect with the exception of the exhaust note!!!! hahahaha.....

[madmadS4]

no no .. Lexus gets a pass.. they're still new to the sport-car arena. agree that Audi blew it.

[NWS4Guy]

Totally blew it. Should have had the space frame to drop the wieght and gotten a nice smaller V8 that had FI. If they can do this with ah tiny 3L V6, imagine what a ~4L V8 with a larger SC could do. Some groups get a nod with the improvements to the quattro and Sport Diff though.