Some dyno graphs.........

[madmadS4]

If I am going to trust any of the graphs that have been released on this car when it relates to HP/TQ numbers

then you'll have to believe that the stock car produces 420 CHP (according to APRs chart here, and the data on their exhaust).

I'm going to get skeptical here again. why are these charts not actual screenshots / scan output of the dyno report? also - I've seen plenty of S4 dynos and the torque curve is more of a plateau - not a smooth hill. this has been widely discussed and agreed.

[Proogz]

then you'll have to believe that the stock car produces 420 CHP (according to APRs chart here, and the data on their exhaust).

I'm going to get skeptical here again. why are these charts not actual screenshots / scan output of the dyno report? also - I've seen plenty of S4 dynos and the torque curve is more of a plateau - not a smooth hill. this has been widely discussed and agreed.

I believe the car is more within the 410-415 range stock.

The other day I was at the track. I saw a tuned Cobalt SS go up against this Phantom S4. S4 was completely stock. I talked to the SS owner after because the go both cars had was pretty intense. The SS was bone stock but just had a ecu tune. He said he was running at around 300-305 to the wheels. The SS also weighs a shit load less than the B8 S4.

The s4 took the SS at the end. On paper if our cars were really 285-300AWHP the SS should have taken a big american dump all over the S4. But it diddnt.

Take it as you want. But I have seen our cars take on a whole line up of tuned, and stock cars that on paper should be able to take us, but havent.

[primetime]

I believe the car is more within the 410-415 range stock.

The other day I was at the track. I saw a tuned Cobalt SS go up against this Phantom S4. S4 was completely stock. I talked to the SS owner after because the go both cars had was pretty intense. The SS was bone stock but just had a ecu tune. He said he was running at around 300-305 to the wheels. The SS also weighs a shit load less than the B8 S4.

The s4 took the SS at the end. On paper if our cars were really 285-300AWHP the SS should have taken a big american dump all over the S4. But it diddnt.

Take it as you want. But I have seen our cars take on a whole line up of tuned, and stock cars that on paper should be able to take us, but havent.

So what did they run?

[Nadrealista]

Those numbers are at the crank, corrected, taking into account a 23% drivetrain loss.

somehow I find it hard to swallow 23% drivetrain loss..It is probably in mid to high teens..and looking at some official dynos it seams that drivetrain losses are not constant but increase linearly with rpms.

[L0U]

I think the graphs are the most above board results yet to be givin to us yet. They show comparative data, and they use a dyno that reads off the wheel vs off the rollers. Yes this is higher than usual, but that is not the point. Remeber the very first S4 pull stock had 316 uncorrected whp back in the day.

Audi has squezed almost all the power out of this setup from the factory up to 5000rpm...this is not anyones fault. I think having a car driven day to day that is not streesed much more than stock...until 5k means the odd time you do wring it, it delivers.

Basically this thing has been tuned to give the most with as much as the blower can deliver. Pushing more boost than the apr tune is a requirement of a larger displacement blower. The smaller pulley will be a wee increase overall. Like apr said...stock the s4 runs blower capacity till 5k then limits the boost....this is what was uncorked..NOBODY else can deliver a better tune...because the boost is all you get and it has been maximized. (an equal tune perhaps, a safer tune, not likely)

I will not be changing anything on my blower as the rpms are high enough and the heat.

The tune is exactly what the car needs to be an rs4...audi would deliver one with the same sub 5k performance and push 75 more on top and call it rs4.

bone stock with tune = stealthy dailly driver for me. sweet results I'd say.

[Nadrealista]

So all said and done Stage one will get you ~40WHP over stock

[StratJohn]

DTL's may not be linear but that 23% is pretty standard. I think the average for FWD cars is 13%, RWD cars are 18%, and 23% for AWD. Yes, it may seem awfully simplistic with the 5 unit gap per item, but its fair. Lots of parts moving around there.

Numbers look good!

[S4tranquility]

Any change to the redline?

[81bear]

So all said and done Stage one will get you ~40WHP over stock

Why 40WHP?

The graph shows 70Whp gains uncorrected. Am I missing something?

[M3 Montreal]

DTL's may not be linear but that 23% is pretty standard. I think the average for FWD cars is 13%, RWD cars are 18%, and 23% for AWD. Yes, it may seem awfully simplistic with the 5 unit gap per item, but its fair. Lots of parts moving around there.

Numbers look good!

+1 ... I agree that the drivetrain loss APR is using is correct for a quattro vehicle.

[Un1k]

Why 40WHP?

The graph shows 70Whp gains uncorrected. Am I missing something?

not looking at the biggest gain but the difference in the top hp

[PAT@RSW]

Looks great guys ! I have alot of customers waiting to Install their new exhaust systems because they want to upgrade the ECU at the same time !

[81bear]

not looking at the biggest gain but the difference in the top hp

Got it thanks.

Next question, stupid me, why is that more important then biggest gains? Especially when the biggest gains are exactly where the S4 needs them wouldn't that make them more relevent?

[Arin@APR]

So all said and done Stage one will get you ~40WHP over stock

If you honestly are only looking at peak power, you're missing the whole point or just not understanding the graphs correctly. Let me illustrate what I mean. Lets take this fictitious dyno graph as an example. In this graph below the car is only making 200 HP stock. When chipped the car makes a peak of 200 HP. So by your statement above, the car would make 0 HP over stock. That's simply not true! The chipped car is actually making 90 HP more at redline.

So as you can see, peak HP is only an HP gain at 1 RPM. That's not how dyno's should be compared. You shouldn't compare peak of one RPM to peak of another RPM to discuss power gains. you need to compare each RPM.

Does that make sense?

[NWS4Guy]

BTW John - Congrats on the new APR partnership and level! Good time to get in with them methinks.

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2789112

[StratJohn]

BTW John - Congrats on the new APR partnership and level! Good time to get in with them methinks.

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2789112

Thanks! APR's history speaks for itself with software- just look at this thread! Can't wait to get our car taken up a notch. Especially bc I don't have to "remove that shit"... :D

[rktskicar]

If you honestly are only looking at peak power, you're missing the whole point or just not understanding the graphs correctly. Let me illustrate what I mean. Lets take this fictitious dyno graph as an example. In this graph below the car is only making 200 HP stock. When chipped the car makes a peak of 200 HP. So by your statement above, the car would make 0 HP over stock. That's simply not true! The chipped car is actually making 90 HP more at redline.

So as you can see, peak HP is only an HP gain at 1 RPM. That's not how dyno's should be compared. You shouldn't compare peak of one RPM to peak of another RPM to discuss power gains. you need to compare each RPM.

Does that make sense?

2nd to Arin it is not the peak WHP that is most important, but the average WHP change over your powerband. Also known as area under the curve. Here is a real life depiction of this from some graphs from my previous B5 S4 in different tuning stages.

If you look at the ASP 3 vs GIAC 3- curve, the ASP 3 only makes ~16 WHP more than the GIAC 3-. However if you look at the average RHP over the whole 4200 - 6500 RPM FATS powerband, the tune is worth ~30 RHP. The largest gains are in the midrange, over 60 RHP at 4500 RPM.

Bruce

[StratJohn]

Simple.wikipedia.com version:

It's not about how big the number is - its about how much bigger the number is after software. Percentage gained folks!

[NWS4Guy]

It's not about how much power you have, it's what you do with that power that matters!

Heheh!

[StratJohn]

Heheh!

you did not just "size doesn't matter" me.. did you?

[L0U]

the car shifts at redline....stock it is pulling, but not really getting much out of the last 2k rpm in that gear. You axccelerate faster in a lower gear due to the mechanical advantage. That 70 hp over the same 2k rpm will make a considerable difference to the way the car accelerates before each shift.

Short shifting doesn't work as well either...since after the shift you drop yoo low into the rpm range of the next gear. Getting a good chunk up top allows a redline shift, and dropping back into the peak power for the next gear.

[Excelerate]

This kind of empirical data just reinforces my decision to keep APR as our only software choice at our shop. They could have chosen to deflate the original dyno #'s to dramatize their software/exhaust gains but they have chosen to be honest. The gains with the exhaust and software are substantial but the gains could have been exaggerated easily. Thanks to APR for their hard work and R&D. We are excited to offer this to our customers.

[Nadrealista]

If you honestly are only looking at peak power, you're missing the whole point or just not understanding the graphs correctly. Let me illustrate what I mean. Lets take this fictitious dyno graph as an example. In this graph below the car is only making 200 HP stock. When chipped the car makes a peak of 200 HP. So by your statement above, the car would make 0 HP over stock. That's simply not true! The chipped car is actually making 90 HP more at redline.

So as you can see, peak HP is only an HP gain at 1 RPM. That's not how dyno's should be compared. You shouldn't compare peak of one RPM to peak of another RPM to discuss power gains. you need to compare each RPM.

Does that make sense?

oh I am in complete agreement that area under curve trumps peak HP numbers..I was just stirring the pot :-)

how about some 1/4 mile numbers

[b_desom]

OK, I'll jump in, My big question for APR is who will warranty the engine if it throws a rod, burns a valve, dsg eats a gear, etc. The answer that 'AoA will never know bcause...' isn't acceptable either. If Stasis is willing to offer a warranty with their software, will APR??? This has really been my major heistation to get on this bus? Don't really want to buy an 18K engine from the kids college fund on my own dime for 40 WHP.

[Arin@APR]

OK, I'll jump in, My big question for APR is who will warranty the engine if it throws a rod, burns a valve, dsg eats a gear, etc. The answer that 'AoA will never know bcause...' isn't acceptable either. If Stasis is willing to offer a warranty with their software, will APR??? This has really been my major heistation to get on this bus? Don't really want to buy an 18K engine from the kids college fund on my own dime for 40 WHP.

We have accelerated life tested the limits for nearly a year now with our B8 S4 motorsport program. Punishing the car on the track really helps us find the limits.

Quite simply we will not make software that will run dangerously lean enough to burn a valve. If the software was powerful enough to throw rods, the S4 would have some of the weakest rods we've ever seen and we would not push it to the limit. If the software is powerful enough to grenade DSG's we will not sell it to DSG customers. FWIW we've absolutely dominated the DSG in the 2.0T, which are rated much lower, and have not seen a large failure rate. Our stage 4 450whp drag racing 80k+ guy just recently decided it was time to upgrade his clutch pack. :)

The repercussions of us selling unsafe software are high enough to completely destroy our company and put us out of business. We are not a small tuning shop that can get by with only a few customers, we have 10's of thousands who purchase each of our ECU upgrades. Our sample groups are huge, and as such the number of customers with destroyed engines (if the software was unsafe) would be huge and a quick downfall for APR.

Simply put, we own these cars. We drive these cars. If the software was unsafe, we wouldn't run it on our own vehicles let alone sell it to thousands upon thousands of customers who love to post on the internet. Information moves fast these days **- you can't make a bad product w/o the world knowing it.

But, if you're still uncomfortable, I'm sure the Stasis stuff will suit you well. :)



One more note:

The answer that 'AoA will never know bcause...' isn't acceptable either.

I would like to officially make it clear that this is not a policy of APR. The point of the ECU being invisible, stock mode, security lock out and such is not in place so you can grenade your engine (related to APR software) and then take it in for warranty work. It's in place so there is no chance of a dealership saying "we will not warranty replace your taillight because we know your chipped." if you catch my drift.

[NWS4Guy]

OK, I'll jump in, My big question for APR is who will warranty the engine if it throws a rod, burns a valve, dsg eats a gear, etc. The answer that 'AoA will never know bcause...' isn't acceptable either. If Stasis is willing to offer a warranty with their software, will APR??? This has really been my major heistation to get on this bus? Don't really want to buy an 18K engine from the kids college fund on my own dime for 40 WHP.

Nothing is free. If demand for warranty becomes something big enough to show there is untapped market share to gain a foothold and make money from, I would assume APR will do this - they are a business and businesses want to make money.

TO be clear, I am not suggesting APR would pad things to make money off the obvioulsy more expensive extra money a warranty would obvioulsy cost, just that if they can sell more tunes by offering a warranty along with the tune, it would net more money. Right now, with no APR warranty is still accomplishing the same thing I believe, the only difference is the lack of a cushon for the customer. APR has a reputation to maintain, and blowing engines - even one - will give them a huge black eye and cost them money, even if they offer a warranty. Who would buy a tune that knowingly blows engines even if it was warrantied? I don't want to subject myself to engine swaps.

[zerinA4]

I've had probably 70 - 100k combined miles with APR software on my cars in the last 10 years...not a SINGLE issue relating to software or the engines.

[marty was here]

OK, I'll jump in, My big question for APR is who will warranty the engine if it throws a rod, burns a valve, dsg eats a gear, etc. The answer that 'AoA will never know bcause...' isn't acceptable either. If Stasis is willing to offer a warranty with their software, will APR??? This has really been my major heistation to get on this bus? Don't really want to buy an 18K engine from the kids college fund on my own dime for 40 WHP.

Umm? So don't mod a car. Let me ask u this, can u point out or site a time when stasis came in and covered where the oem warranty didn't?

[S5noob]

I know this is an S4 Forum, but would you be able to give us an estimated time to market for this ECU for the S5 Sportback which has the same engine.

[S-Fore]

Does that make sense?

No, I'm sure it won't. Bunch of desktop dyno "wizards" that will probably never get it. This crap pollutes these type threads all of the time; speculation, assumptions and what if's. Damn, it's exatly what they said, read what they posted and live with it. It's like they want to question you to death until they feel that they achieved some sort of justification to their own theories and beliefs. In the end, while the APR guys are trying to spin it to a constructive learning forum that's just an excuse on their end, for business sake. You either get it or you don't, and, again will either ante up and flash your car or not. Not trying to be a dick, but coming one here to find productive info about something that I have an interest in and having to read through 2 pages of crap gets annoying after a while. Just my .02 on the direction of is thread. Anyone that disagrees, prove me wrong and list info that has been achieved by asking and speculating dyno graphs ONLINE.

[Jeff@RevoUSA]

Umm? So don't mod a car. Let me ask u this, can u point out or site a time when stasis came in and covered where the oem warranty didn't?

Sorry we don't post our invoices showing were we pay Audi Dealers for warranty work.

[L0U]

comparing just at the wheel corrected numbers..
bone stocker

exhaust and tune corrected.


47awhp and 18awtq peak spread with exhaust and tune. But much more area from 5k to 7k.
real world testing will be nice eventually.

[Nadrealista]

Arin can you overlay dyno for stock car with and without exhaust only

[Arin@APR]

Arin can you overlay dyno for stock car with and without exhaust only

The data I have is not collected same day so I can't be 100% confident in the accuracy as environmental variables may be different (temperature, humidity, etc) but let me look around and see what I have.

[NWS4Guy]

Sorry we don't post our invoices showing were we pay Audi Dealers for warranty work.

I think what Marty was getting at is that he has never seen or heard of a case where Stasis has had to pay for anything. But I would think by your saying you don't share these (plural) there has been at least 2.

[Vogz]

Guys at APR,

Very nice work. I'll definitely be purchasing an ECU upgrade from your guys next spring when my 2011 S4 arrives. Just looking at this thread alone I can't imagine how many dumb questions you get every day.

Keep up the good work!

[jeffc31337]

I ran some numbers this morning on a DSG gear ratios to see where the RPMs lay when doing a full acceleration run so I thought I'd share the results here. My 2011 doesn't arrive for another 2 months!

Assuming a 7000 RPM shift point you can see that you are going to spend the vast majority of time on the drag stip in the top end of the RPM range where the gains are the highest. My guess is a softare only car runs 12.4 @ 115 :)

Gear 1 rev range = idle-7000
Gear 2 Rev Range = 4300-7000
Gear 3 Rev Range = 4800-7000
Gear 4 Rev Range = 5400-XX

[M3 Montreal]

I ran some numbers this morning on a DSG gear ratios to see where the RPMs lay when doing a full acceleration run so I thought I'd share the results here. My 2011 doesn't arrive for another 2 months!

Assuming a 7000 RPM shift point you can see that you are going to spend the vast majority of time on the drag stip in the top end of the RPM range where the gains are the highest. My guess is a softare only car runs 12.4 @ 115 :)

Gear 1 rev range = idle-7000
Gear 2 Rev Range = 4300-7000
Gear 3 Rev Range = 4800-7000
Gear 4 Rev Range = 5400-XX

+1 the gaines given are where it was needed most when flooring it.

Still nice gains in the usable band (lower area) but Im SSOOoooo glad to see the gains till redline since it didnt make sense my S-tronic was redlining and going into a useless area where i actually felt a loss of momentum compared to under 5500.

Great job and Im sure this will be tweaked to get better over time.

[John4378]

somehow I find it hard to swallow 23% drivetrain loss..It is probably in mid to high teens..and looking at some official dynos it seams that drivetrain losses are not constant but increase linearly with rpms.

In APR's Stage II thread for the B8 A4, they state that they use a 12% DTL in their graphs for a Quattro equipped car. Why would they use 23% for a Quattro S4? Their argument in using 12% for the A4 was that Audi's published HP / TQ figures were only 12% higher than the power / torque levels achieved on their dyno. So, why wouldn't they apply the same math to the S4. If the S4 were to dyno 316 awhp stock, that means the DTL would be just over 5%. That is a pretty incredulous DTL, but how do you then assign a 23% DTL? At the same time, if you applied a 23% DTL to their Stage II numbers for the B8 A4 you would back into some incredulous crank numbers for the A4. What gives? No consistency.

That means the A4 dyno'd at 189 awhp. Adding 12% gets you to 211-212 bhp. Adding 23% gets you to 232 bhp, and I don't think the car is making that much power stock. That would mean an APR Stage II A4 would be making 265 bhp, and I'm not buying that either.

Thoughts?

[NWS4Guy]

You can add whatever loss you want, they gave the AWH and AWT numbers (as both Keith and Arin have said if you read this thread). The 3.0T is VASTLY underrated by Audi, which is likely why such a larger % loss was used. The factory claim is 333CHP and APR dyno'd their stock S4 at 316WHP.