2000.5 B5 S4 Stage 3 Clutch Choice Question

[Lear70]

In a nutshell, which clutch should I get for my Stage 3 build since I'm low on cash, one that will NOT rattle when attached to the Fidanza LWFW.

I have a 2000.5 Audi S4 that jumped a timing belt on me 3 months after I put a Fidanza LWFW in it. I had an ACT Stage 1 clutch in it at the time.

Rattling symptoms: When the transmission is in NEUTRAL, i.e. NOT turning, and the clutch pedal is NOT engaged, i.e. no one is sitting in the driver's seat, car running, there is a mechanical rattle that sounds like a marble is loose inside the bell housing. It's REALLY DAMN loud, more than a few people have asked me if there's a rod knocking!

The moment I depress the clutch enough to where the clutch disc is no longer contacting the pressure plate, the rattle goes away. It comes back at very low RPM launching slowly in street driving but goes away very quickly and you can't hear it above 5 mph or so.

I don't believe it's Transmission noise since the transmission isn't even ENGAGED in neutral sitting in a parking lot running by itself.

I got a great deal on a Stage 3 engine complete on eBay, K04's, all the hoses and such already on and clamped, including ECU ready to go. We have everything pulled except the half axles (had to look up how to get those out, they were giving us fits yesterday), going to pull those this morning, get the engine assembly out, pull the transmission and see where we're at, but I know I'm at least going to have to have a better clutch disc and pressure plate for the Stage 3.

So what's the best budget Stage 3 clutch and pressure plate that has smooth street performance but will handle the torque and WILL NOT RATTLE with the Fidanza? or at least not noticeably aggravating in idle without the clutch engaged.

Thanks.

[B5audiRS4]

the sound is the throw out bearing, happened to me a lot in my old Honda preludes. was caused by my bad driving habbits.

[Monty23]

I have the same noise as do many others with aluminum LWFWs. I heard CELison's car making the same noise and he had a VAST stage 3 clutch iirc. My car has a Southbend Stage 3 drag 6 puck clutch. I think its actually just chatter in the transmission due to the lack of dampening from the DMFW being replaced with the Al LWFW.

[kdf8454]

If you want to get rid of the noise I think you'll have to get a different flywheel. I have a steel single mass from southbend along with their stage 3 endurance full face - the only chatter I ever hear is from low RPM which goes away by 2k. Budget clutch and stage 3 might not be the best idea as you'll be pulling that motor again sooner than you expect if you cut corners.

[Monty23]

Rattling symptoms: When the transmission is in NEUTRAL, i.e. NOT turning, and the clutch pedal is NOT engaged, i.e. no one is sitting in the driver's seat, car running

FYI, in this scenario the transmission internals are certainly spinning, just the output shaft is disengaged in neutral.

[Lear70]

The only thing I thought was spinning was the transmission input shaft and its associated gear if the transmission is in neutral...? None of the other gears for certain are turning if the tranny is in neutral. Unfortunately, to get at the input shaft inside the transmission, you have to disassemble the entire thing. :/

Don't have the $$$ to rebuild a transmission right now. Parts alone would run me almost $2k and I can do a lot of things, but have never tackled (nor do I want to right now) a transmission rebuild. Have enough on my plate with this car, my boat engine R&R, and my Escalade oil pump needing replacement!

The TOB was brand new with the clutch kit, but I got another one to be on the safe side. Which Stage 3 clutch/pressure plate combo is the best that isn't $2,000+? Southbend isn't going to happen right now. I don't race it much at all, don't do crazy launches (and when I do launch I pre-load the clutch with the e-brake so it minimizes slipping), just need a good street Stage 3 clutch, don't need top-line racing components but not buying another eBay special (unless it's a reputable company). Who does the best on a budget? ACT? Spec?

[Monty23]

The only thing I thought was spinning was the transmission input shaft and its associated gear if the transmission is in neutral...? None of the other gears for certain are turning if the tranny is in neutral. Unfortunately, to get at the input shaft inside the transmission, you have to disassemble the entire thing. :/

Don't have the $$$ to rebuild a transmission right now. Parts alone would run me almost $2k and I can do a lot of things, but have never tackled (nor do I want to right now) a transmission rebuild. Have enough on my plate with this car, my boat engine R&R, and my Escalade oil pump needing replacement!

The TOB was brand new with the clutch kit, but I got another one to be on the safe side. Which Stage 3 clutch/pressure plate combo is the best that isn't $2,000+? Southbend isn't going to happen right now. I don't race it much at all, don't do crazy launches (and when I do launch I pre-load the clutch with the e-brake so it minimizes slipping), just need a good street Stage 3 clutch, don't need top-line racing components but not buying another eBay special (unless it's a reputable company). Who does the best on a budget? ACT? Spec?

The transmission is not the issue, nor is the clutch. The problem is a noise that is usually being masked by the use of the factory dual mass fly wheel. You can pick up a used or new stock FW and your "annoying knocking sound" will most likely go away. Again, I believe the issue is the Al LWFW. And your car is just fine BTW, the cheapest option would be just live with the noise. I do.

[slow ride]

Natural torsional vibration from the engine mixed with low damping from the light weight of the flywheel. It's pretty common and one of the reason dual mass flywheels are used so much now.

[xalents23]

I would get this clutch kit if I where you. Do it right the first time and be done with it. As mention above, only way to get rid of your clutch chatter is get an OEM dual mass flywheel. If money is an issue good luck finding a decent clutch kit that will hold up to a stage 3.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...in-GREAT-shape

[AvantGuard]

Get an RS4 clutch from Scotty and it will be fine with stage 3 unless you are drag racing/launching.

[kdf8454]

I would get this clutch kit if I where you. Do it right the first time and be done with it. As mention above, only way to get rid of your clutch chatter is get an OEM dual mass flywheel. If money is an issue good luck finding a decent clutch kit that will hold up to a stage 3.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...in-GREAT-shape

That's a STEAL.

[Lear70]

Yeah, that's a great deal, but I don't have $900 bucks. Have about $400 to spend on a clutch and pressure plate. Probably going to put the stock flywheel back in, I kept it. I don't race the car,,, ever,,, just like playing on corners and back mountain roads, and occasionally surprising a Vette on the highway. :) Smoothness and no noise is more important than an extra second on the quarter mile.

Unless I could get some money back from my Fidanza or some people buy the extra stuff I pulled from the original engine, just don't have a bunch of $$ to spend right now. Sucks, but spent so much on the engine and ECU combo that I'm tight for cash and need this thing running ASAP.

[Taloras]

Yeah, that's a great deal, but I don't have $900 bucks. Have about $400 to spend on a clutch and pressure plate. Probably going to put the stock flywheel back in, I kept it. I don't race the car,,, ever,,, just like playing on corners and back mountain roads, and occasionally surprising a Vette on the highway. :) Smoothness and no noise is more important than an extra second on the quarter mile.

Unless I could get some money back from my Fidanza or some people buy the extra stuff I pulled from the original engine, just don't have a bunch of $$ to spend right now. Sucks, but spent so much on the engine and ECU combo that I'm tight for cash and need this thing running ASAP.

I don't think $400 will get you as far as you think... ProjectB5 is $700, Spec stg3 is $800, Southbend is $900.

http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_S4--2.7T/ES8/ES1327/ or http://advancedautomotion.com/shop/p...roducts_id/197 RS4 clutch is about the only thing that will fit the budget. It comes with a TOB, so return the one you got and use the money to get a new friction surface for your flywheel. You'll have to budget another $30 or so for new flywheel bolts too.

[Taloras]

And don't even think about putting the flywheel back in without a fresh friction surface, as you need fresh flywheel and PP surfaces to properly mate with a new clutch. Here http://autoplicity.com/products/3906...za_229501.aspx

[RedB5S4]

i have a Ringer-Racing Stage 4 clutch kit w/ AWE aluminum lwfw. super happy with this setup thus far.

[Lear70]

Thanks, Taloras. I already have about 5 extra friction plates for my Fidanza. I'm serious. Don't ask, was a weird trade for some other parts. I only have about 500 miles total on the Fidanza. Seriously, it was that quick from the clutch job until when the timing belt jumped. That said, I'm almost 100% certain I'm going to sell the Fidanza and extra friction plates and put the OEM dual mass back on. Not sure what the Fidanza is worth, hopefully someone will want one. I'm not going to take the risk that after putting it all together again with different components that it's just going to rattle again. I can't stand that rattle, makes my car sound like a ghetto POS that's about to self destruct.

Thanks for the two links on clutches, that will help!

[splatt]

I think the rattle is just a LWFW thing, I have a minor click/tap/rattle/misc noise when idling in neutral with the clutch out, goes away in every other situation. Also, the low RPM chatter as usual.

[Taloras]

Thanks, Taloras. I already have about 5 extra friction plates for my Fidanza. I'm serious. Don't ask, was a weird trade for some other parts. I only have about 500 miles total on the Fidanza. Seriously, it was that quick from the clutch job until when the timing belt jumped. That said, I'm almost 100% certain I'm going to sell the Fidanza and extra friction plates and put the OEM dual mass back on. Not sure what the Fidanza is worth, hopefully someone will want one. I'm not going to take the risk that after putting it all together again with different components that it's just going to rattle again. I can't stand that rattle, makes my car sound like a ghetto POS that's about to self destruct.

Thanks for the two links on clutches, that will help!

One can pick up a Fidanza in the $300-400 range new. Used is anyone's guess...$200, maybe? $300 with all those spare friction surfaces?

Going back to stock DMF may not be a good idea for longevity, as most machine shops can't resurface them (dollars to donuts you'll have to replace it the next time it's out). Steel of intermediate weight would also work, but those are pricey, definitely more than $400.

The chatter shouldn't be THAT loud. I have a fidanza, and I don't have any chatter at idle, just when lugging (accelerating below 2000rpm) I've seen videos of LWFW chatter, and they're not as loud or obtrusive as what you're describing. It may well be your TOB, especially if there's such a drastic change in noise between clutch in/out.

[Lear70]

Yeah, it's noticeably and excessively loud. People stop and ask me if my engine is OK, my wife when driving inside the car says "that sounds like crap, are you sure it's OK?" In my book, if that's what they sound like, they are junk and I'm surprised they ever made it this far. The shop that put it in and another transmission shop said they couldn't narrow the noise down unless they tore it down.

I'll have it out and will check components, but as far as "the next time I have it apart", unless it doesn't make it another 180k miles, I'll never have this engine torn down again. 180k miles over nearly 15 years, well, I doubt I'll have the car that long. ;)

[Taloras]

Yeah, it's noticeably and excessively loud. People stop and ask me if my engine is OK, my wife when driving inside the car says "that sounds like crap, are you sure it's OK?" In my book, if that's what they sound like, they are junk and I'm surprised they ever made it this far. The shop that put it in and another transmission shop said they couldn't narrow the noise down unless they tore it down.

I'll have it out and will check components, but as far as "the next time I have it apart", unless it doesn't make it another 180k miles, I'll never have this engine torn down again. 180k miles over nearly 15 years, well, I doubt I'll have the car that long. ;)

180k mile clutch change interval? With no launching at all, I got mine to 120k, and even THAT's considered pretty long-lived for a full-faced clutch. A more aggressive 4- or 6-puck clutch might last half as long. You gotta update your estimates of cost and durability to German levels

[Lear70]

180k mile clutch change interval? With no launching at all, I got mine to 120k, and even THAT's considered pretty long-lived for a full-faced clutch. A more aggressive 4- or 6-puck clutch might last half as long. You gotta update your estimates of cost and durability to German levels

The first one lasted that long. Why not the next? ;)

[Taloras]

The first one lasted that long. Why not the next? ;)

Huh? I think I'm missing something...180k on the clutch, but neither the clutch nor the flywheel are stock...? Draw a few more dots so I can connect them!

[Lear70]

Well, it was in my original post. Here it is again:

I have a 2000.5 Audi S4 that jumped a timing belt on me 3 months after I put a Fidanza LWFW in it. I had an ACT Stage 1 clutch in it at the time.

180k miles. Clutch went out. Put Fidanza and Stage 1 clutch, pressure plate, and TOB in it at that time. 3 months later, it jumped timing on me. Only about 500 miles, it's not my daily driver. Sucks!

It's been down for 8 months while I worked on other things (new house, boat), and collecting money and parts for it. Now just figuring out what to do with that part of it as we put the Stage 3 engine and ECU in it. Hope that makes sense!

[Taloras]

Well, it was in my original post. Here it is again:


180k miles. Clutch went out. Put Fidanza and Stage 1 clutch, pressure plate, and TOB in it at that time. 3 months later, it jumped timing on me. Only about 500 miles, it's not my daily driver. Sucks!

It's been down for 8 months while I worked on other things (new house, boat), and collecting money and parts for it. Now just figuring out what to do with that part of it as we put the Stage 3 engine and ECU in it. Hope that makes sense!

Ohhh, OK, the flywheel AND clutch went in at the same time. Wording of the original post made me think the clutch had already been in there.

I still think 180k is unrealistic. You got really lucky, the original clutch must've been babied.

[Scotty@Advanced]

In a nutshell, which clutch should I get for my Stage 3 build since I'm low on cash, one that will NOT rattle when attached to the Fidanza LWFW.

I have a 2000.5 Audi S4 that jumped a timing belt on me 3 months after I put a Fidanza LWFW in it. I had an ACT Stage 1 clutch in it at the time.

Rattling symptoms: When the transmission is in NEUTRAL, i.e. NOT turning, and the clutch pedal is NOT engaged, i.e. no one is sitting in the driver's seat, car running, there is a mechanical rattle that sounds like a marble is loose inside the bell housing. It's REALLY DAMN loud, more than a few people have asked me if there's a rod knocking!

The moment I depress the clutch enough to where the clutch disc is no longer contacting the pressure plate, the rattle goes away. It comes back at very low RPM launching slowly in street driving but goes away very quickly and you can't hear it above 5 mph or so.

I don't believe it's Transmission noise since the transmission isn't even ENGAGED in neutral sitting in a parking lot running by itself.

I got a great deal on a Stage 3 engine complete on eBay, K04's, all the hoses and such already on and clamped, including ECU ready to go. We have everything pulled except the half axles (had to look up how to get those out, they were giving us fits yesterday), going to pull those this morning, get the engine assembly out, pull the transmission and see where we're at, but I know I'm at least going to have to have a better clutch disc and pressure plate for the Stage 3.

So what's the best budget Stage 3 clutch and pressure plate that has smooth street performance but will handle the torque and WILL NOT RATTLE with the Fidanza? or at least not noticeably aggravating in idle without the clutch engaged.

Thanks.

Even with the trans in neutral, the input shaft is still spinning, so it could very well be your transmission.

[Lear70]

You guys are going to LOVE this...

Just got the transmission apart today. When I split the case, the flywheel assembly fell out onto the ground. I'm not kidding. Here are the pics. It appears the shop that put it together neglected to install the washer between the clutch assembly and the transmission, so it's been slowly eating the transmission casing for the 1,000 miles I drove it, until one day at high RPM it bit in too deep, locked up, and just snapped all 8 mounting bolts onto the crankshaft then wedged itself to where it would no longer turn.

Looks like I need an entire new clutch, as well as the engine, as well as a transmission rebuild.

[01audia4]

OUCHH!!! Time for a 3.0L build.

[Lear70]

OUCHH!!! Time for a 3.0L build.

I already bought a Stage 3 engine, K04's, new water pump, timing belt, etc, piggy pipes, blah blah blah, APR Stage 3 tune.

If I can't get my money out of this damn shop, I guess I'll be teaching myself how to rebuild a transmission. That's how I learned to rebuild my first engine, why not?

To everyone else, be very cautious doing business with Full Throttle of Orlando, FL.

[RicoS4]

Yeah, it's noticeably and excessively loud. People stop and ask me if my engine is OK, my wife when driving inside the car says "that sounds like crap, are you sure it's OK?" In my book, if that's what they sound like, they are junk and I'm surprised they ever made it this far. The shop that put it in and another transmission shop said they couldn't narrow the noise down unless they tore it down.

I'll have it out and will check components, but as far as "the next time I have it apart", unless it doesn't make it another 180k miles, I'll never have this engine torn down again. 180k miles over nearly 15 years, well, I doubt I'll have the car that long. ;)

lol

[RicoS4]

You guys are going to LOVE this...

Just got the transmission apart today. When I split the case, the flywheel assembly fell out onto the ground. I'm not kidding. Here are the pics. It appears the shop that put it together neglected to install the washer between the clutch assembly and the transmission, so it's been slowly eating the transmission casing for the 1,000 miles I drove it, until one day at high RPM it bit in too deep, locked up, and just snapped all 8 mounting bolts onto the crankshaft then wedged itself to where it would no longer turn.

Looks like I need an entire new clutch, as well as the engine, as well as a transmission rebuild.

Which shop did you have it done?

[Lear70]

Full Throttle just outside of downtown Orlando about 15 minutes. They had a ton of good reviews, all they do is VW and Audi, figured it was a good choice at the time.

They dragged their feet for 2 months with it, finally after threat of lawsuit did they finish it up and I had to pay an extra $300 to have it shipped because I was in Dallas by then, and immediately noted the rattle, a bunch of other stuff they screwed up, then it self-destructed and I didn't have the cash to fix it so it sat the last 8 months.

Almost $4,000 in work, and now I'm going to be out another $4k at the very least. Pissed is putting it mildly.

[RicoS4]

Full Throttle just outside of downtown Orlando about 15 minutes. They had a ton of good reviews, all they do is VW and Audi, figured it was a good choice at the time.

They dragged their feet for 2 months with it, finally after threat of lawsuit did they finish it up and I had to pay an extra $300 to have it shipped because I was in Dallas by then, and immediately noted the rattle, a bunch of other stuff they screwed up, then it self-destructed and I didn't have the cash to fix it so it sat the last 8 months.

Almost $4,000 in work, and now I'm going to be out another $4k at the very least. Pissed is putting it mildly.

Sorry to hear that man. I hate when that happens which makes me so hesitant to go to shops and have them do some on my work car.

[zillarob]

That is jacked up!

What spacer are you talking about? I dont see anything missing with that style of clutch.

[erykv1]

dang. I'd be interested into hearing about this washer you speak of. Sorry to see this happen :(

[james 408]

just make sure they pay for everything, including a rental car (get a good one). i've been down this road, hopefully the shop steps up to the plate and takes care of it, otherwise you'll need to hire an attorney as small claims court requires you to represent yourself.

mechanics are idiots (sorry for all you mechanics out there), but just because you can unbolt something and put it back together, doesn't mean you have a friggen clue what you're doing. some mechanics i've seen with over 10 years experience don't even know what a 360degree circle is for purposes of clocking parts (literally confused at the middle school math level).

[Lear70]

I finally just got them to answer their phone a few minutes ago. They acknowledge receipt of my email with the same pictures I put on this thread, we'll see what they do. I highly doubt they'll completely do the right thing, but at this point it's a matter of balance. If they do enough to get me back on the road, the money I spent for this Stage 3 engine notwithstanding, I'll probably just take it and move on down the road. Legal battles are expensive and sometimes not as slam-dunk as they would appear.

Lawyers can really gum up the works for what's fair and how things really happened, so sometimes you have to weigh your options and choose the lesser of two evils, take a smaller amount but be back on the road and done with it, or end up in court, where "you rolls the dice and takes yer chances". If they don't offer anything useful, it'll have to be the legal route, we'll just have to see how it goes.

Unfortunately that guy already sold the other clutch kit linked in this thread. Would have been perfect for what I needed, too bad I could finish getting the engine out last week, could have snagged it.

[Lear70]

dang. I'd be interested into hearing about this washer you speak of. Sorry to see this happen :(

From what I'm told by my transmission shop guy, there's a spacer washer that sits somewhere on the transmission spline, back behind the throwout bearing and fork I believe, thin little thing. When you have the pedal depressed, the whole assembly slides off the gear of the input shaft. When you let off the clutch, that washer/spacer keeps the assembly from moving far enough back to not come into contact with the casing.

That's my understanding anyway. I'm not a transmission person, but it makes sense, since that's what clearly happened - pressure plate was somehow allowed to move too far back towards the transmission when clutch pedal released, resulting in contact with the case while spinning = bad things happened. If it doesn't have that washer, the only other thing it could be is a bad installation of the clutch fork (which was previously working just fine) or the wrong throwout bearing (splined correctly, but too thin).

SOMETHING allowed a brand new clutch assembly to move backwards far enough to contact the transmission casing. Didn't magically do it on its own.

[james 408]

so the b5 rs4 clutch works, but the pressure plates have been known to fail.

lots of good reviews on the state 3 clutch kits out there, and particularly good reviews on the $$$southbend stuff.

have AWE sourced LWFW, i don't notice any rattling or anything at idle... never notice anything on casual launches, and i never drive below 2krpm anyway, so i dunno. i've seen LWFW's rattle on other cars, but never in person on an s4, but i'm sure it happens.

[zillarob]

There are no washers on the oem/rs4 setup. (or Ive just been doing it wrong all this time)
On the sachs plates like the aftermarket guys use, there is a spacer ring epoxied to the tob to make up for the thinner pp.
If he is talking about the plastic washer that is on the face of some tob, not a big deal and many people opt for the metal faced ones without it.

Id be pulling the pp off the fw and looking very closely at the fw bolts and where they go through the fw.
If oem fw bolts, it is next to impossible to get the proper torque while the serrated heads are chewing into the alum fw.
If you can see where they were moving around and/or the heads look stripped, they were not tight enough.
Fw bolts are one time use, did they replace them?
Pray to whatever god you pray to that what is left in the crank is not bottomed out in there.

Maybe get some more close up pics of the bolts and other areas of concern.

[landfill]

If your a tech and don't know that 360 degrees is a circle then I'm sorry to inform
you they are probably lube techs getting paid $8 an hour. I guarantee you I've met
tech's with more smart's then you or me but chose this for their careers. They chose
a automotive career because that is what they loved to do. Sometimes random
people like you and certain difficult customers don't understand that shit isn't always
peaches and cream. Even as a tech a car can give you problems and you can fix one
thing on a piece of shit and then something else breaks. That's something customers
will never understand. I can go on and on.