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  1. #1
    Established Member Two Rings MontyRS's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 15 2008
    AZ Member #
    28804
    My Garage
    '03 RS6 - Revo Stage 2, '09 Escalade; Missed: '08 M3, '07 RS4, '04 S4
    Location
    Delray Beach, FL

    RS4 inspected by AOA for CB

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    I just wanted to let you guys know that after reading my letter, AoA flew two engineers from Michigan down yesterday to inspect my car. Actually, they are flying around and inspecting a number of owners who have evidenced power loss/build-up/CELs etc., so they can get some information together to better understand whether this an endemic problem for the RS4, or if its in isolated instances, etc. All of the feedback was relayed to me by the local Audi engineer once AoA had inspected the car. He did say that the corporate engineer would call me eventually to discuss further.

    What the local engineer told me was that they “thoroughly” inspected the car without removing the intake manifold. Apparently they can scope the back of the valves by removing the spark plugs. They said that there was a “normal” amount of build-up present which they said is expected and the level of build-up did not warrant any action.

    After their inspection on the intake manifold, and trying to figure out why I was claiming power loss, they said that the vacuum hoses in the rear of the car were not completely closed off when I put on the aftermarket exhaust and that was to blame. Apparently those hoses are part of the same vacuum pump that regulates intake flaps (and a couple of other flaps). Without those fully engaging, I was noticing a loss of power in the higher RPM range.

    I know this is partially true (partially in that the hose was at least part of the blame for power loss) as I had only recently realized that the hoses were not capped off (thanks to ArthurPE giving me the heads up to check those), but only had time to duct tape it (versus something more permanent). When I “taped” the hoses, I did notice a change in the power delivery of the car (a nice improvement) immediately. This was done some days before the Audi inspection.

    Audi said that even with the “tape” there was some vacuum leak. They removed the tape and placed a permanent cap and “noticed significant power gains.” I’m not sure that I could feel the different between my “tape” and their “cap” but at the same time I could no longer argue that they were not “right” as there was improvement in the power delivery of the car.

    Basically, by plugging the vacuum leak created in the exhaust hoses, I notice significant power gain…but no longer have a “baseline” to compare the car to confirm that the extra carbon may also be reducing power (as far as I can tell…I have more power than I did before…but do I have the same power as day one…not sure??)

    I guess for now I have to just be happy with her and hope that there are not long term issues ahead. As long as the carbon is at a sustained level and not growing, I’m happy with the car.



    I’d be curious to hear from any of you that have had discussion with Audi…Also – check your vacuum hoses if you have aftermarket exhausts!!!!

  2. #2
    Account Terminated Three Rings
    Join Date
    Dec 31 2008
    AZ Member #
    36929
    Location
    PA

    thanks for sharing...let's see what Audi comes up with...
    given the fact that they are expending resources to address yours (and others) concerns is a positive sign...
    also they checked the car over, addressed the leak, and continued their testing rather than just blaming you for 'mod problems' and walking away...

    if you get a chance do some 3k to 8k 3rd gear runs...start at 2000 rpm and floor it, time from 3k to 8k (~36 to 96 mph)
    tickets at your own risk :D

  3. #3
    Veteran Member Four Rings two2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 25 2009
    AZ Member #
    37871
    My Garage
    RS4
    Location
    Tri-state/CT

    so it was "normal" on ALL the cars they inspected? i'm highly against ANY buildup being "normal"
    eventually layers and layers start caking up.. maybe they should design a better working separator so oil doesn't reach the valves.. oil dilution by fuel is already high in this engine and the oil starts breaking up after only 3k miles.

    i can only imagine what the oil would look like under their recommended service interval..

    it's a lost cause..

  4. #4
    Account Terminated Three Rings
    Join Date
    Dec 31 2008
    AZ Member #
    36929
    Location
    PA

    Quote Originally Posted by two2 View Post
    so it was "normal" on ALL the cars they inspected? i'm highly against ANY buildup being "normal"
    eventually layers and layers start caking up.. maybe they should design a better working separator so oil doesn't reach the valves.. oil dilution by fuel is already high in this engine and the oil starts breaking up after only 3k miles.

    i can only imagine what the oil would look like under their recommended service interval..

    it's a lost cause..
    I think they only commented on his engine...

    the oil is not from blow-by...it must be from the valve seals...
    someone cleaned their valves
    disconnected the blow-by lines and vented to atm thru a filter
    2k miles later the valves had deposits ~ the same as they did at 6k miles, and almost as much as 20k miles...

    in my opinion the deposits are self-limiting
    grow fast initially and taper off
    it looks like 50% with a few k miles
    then 90% at say 10k miles
    then pretty much stablize

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Three Rings jstahmann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 21 2005
    AZ Member #
    5390
    My Garage
    2008 RS4 - Imola/Titanium
    Location
    Utah, USA

    So you did or didn't have CELs on your car? From your description it sounds like you didn't and all you noticed was power loss which was due to a vacuum leak - is that correct?
    John
    2008 RS4 - Imola/Titanium
    Piggie Pipes|Flowmaster 40s|Stasis SLs (800/1200)|Hotchkis Sways F&R|Suede Euro Steering Wheel|Apikol Rear Diff Mount|034 Track Transmission Mount|SilverRS4 PnP Intake|JHM IM Spacers|Status Ring Alcantara Seats|Euro Tails|Rotiform Forged SNA 19x10|285/30/19s|Bonneville 130 & 150 MPH Clubs

    RS4 REGISTRY

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings dparm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 24 2009
    AZ Member #
    41628
    Location
    Frisco, TX

    Vacuum leaks, even small, can of course cause stumbling. I'm surprised there was an actual power loss. But then again, butt dyno isn't super reliable. Too bad you don't have the baseline to compare.

    Glad to hear it was something simple and free.
    now: 2021 Mercedes AMG C63 S, 2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
    past: 2005 Audi S4, 2011 Audi S4

  7. #7
    Established Member Two Rings MontyRS's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 15 2008
    AZ Member #
    28804
    My Garage
    '03 RS6 - Revo Stage 2, '09 Escalade; Missed: '08 M3, '07 RS4, '04 S4
    Location
    Delray Beach, FL

    I did have CELs early on....but haven't had one since the ECU upgrade by Audi. The power loss is significant due to the valves if you're a "detail" person...Call it butt dyno or whatever, the timing and power delivery of the car are noticeably different.

    With that being said, I got another chance to drive home, and even the difference between their "cap" and my "tape" proved to be noticeable. I wasn't sure at first, but I got a chance to warm the engine up and get it on the highway...I actually surprised myself a couple of times....I'm happy to say there definitely is a difference.

    ArthurPE is correct in that this was just the assessment of my car....they are continuing assessments on other states, etc. And yes...Good work by Audi so far. They responded to my letter (which many on this forum said would get overlooked) and they are committing resources. We can argue all day long about the "conclusions" etc, but at least they are going through some paces right now.

    Arthur...I will try your 3rd gear test when I have a chance!

  8. #8
    Account Terminated Three Rings
    Join Date
    Dec 31 2008
    AZ Member #
    36929
    Location
    PA

    a vacuum leak will cost serious power in this car...especially if it prevents the intake and filter box flaps from operating...

    it's an unusual set-up...the RS4 does not use engine generated vacuum, not enough due to the internal egr...
    it has 2 pumps
    the primary is electric
    the secondary is a pitot/venturi type across the throttle body...

    first, there is limited vacuum compared to what an engine can generate, so a leak on this car has even more impact...
    and secondly, vacuum controls so many functions to optimize and augment power any leak is major...

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Four Rings two2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 25 2009
    AZ Member #
    37871
    My Garage
    RS4
    Location
    Tri-state/CT

    sure it's nice they are looking into it, but they will brush it off just like they did with the DRC suspension.. "it's normal for it to sweat"

    i'm also amazed you actually used tape to "seal" your lines.. most if not all of us used a golf tee pushed into the line followed by a tight clamp around it or a zip tie. kinda of embarrassing to blame the carbon on your power loss only for them to find the problem was created by you.. now it doesn't help us with the argument lol.

    WinterRunners manifold was supposedly inspected as well and according to him they found no carbon.. ?

    it's ironic how everyone complains on the forum about carbon and when Audi looks into it, the cars are showing up okay lol. call me skeptical i guess..

  10. #10
    Account Terminated Three Rings
    Join Date
    Dec 31 2008
    AZ Member #
    36929
    Location
    PA

    Audi is actually replacing all the RS6 DRC systems, correct?
    I'm sure with time they will address the RS4's also...same system, KYB

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