Audi FSI Engine Carbon Build-up Megathread

[Akatsuki...]

^335 has the same issue. BSH just released the catch can for 335 I think.
The only one i am aware of that has no issues is Lexus, as they have an extra port on their DI engines to prevent build up.

[iconoclast]

after speaking with aoa countless times via email and phone. going back and forth with out a direct answer to any of my questions idecided to pass on an fsi engine car even though three out of my five choices of cars were fsi. it seems now audi's only solution is to blame the end-user.

[bryzf1]

after speaking with aoa countless times via email and phone. going back and forth with out a direct answer to any of my questions idecided to pass on an fsi engine car even though three out of my five choices of cars were fsi. it seems now audi's only solution is to blame the end-user.

What are your other 2 choices? And it is quite sad that they do blame the user for the buildup issue.... sure makes it hard to stay brand loyal.

[iconoclast]

Audi A3 3.2Q, B7 S4 Avant. these were the only two non-fsi cars i looked into which were made by audi.

[wongster]

Does the B7 S4have an FSI engin?

[iconoclast]

no. b6/b7 s4 have BHF engine which is NON-FSI.

[Auto Reign]

Great thread, great compilation.

Could not go through all the links but here is another great one.

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?p=23943182

After having read some of the links, I would summarize the possible causes as follows:

1) EGR
2) PCV
3) oil quality
4) fuel quality

As a prevention solution, I would suggest (just an attempt, feel free to comment) as follows:

1) Reduce exhaust back pressure, update ECU software. (Note: EGR for some FSI engine [if not all] is controlled by camshaft profile and software via cam timing adjustment)
2) use after-market catch can such as Mann's Provent 200
3) use low SAPS (low ash) engine oil (manufacturer specs: VW504 00/VW507 00 not VW502 xx/VW505 xx)
4) use Audi/VW fuel additive (P/N: G 001 700 03)

Hope the above info is useful.


cheers,
Clement

[mattlqx]

Thanks for that. Added link to the main post.

[Auto Reign]

Thanks for that. Added link to the main post.

Thank you MrPerfect.

Could the Preventive Solution be added to the mail thread as well? I believe there are a good number of user rather have a preventive measure as oppose to Rectification measure.

Thank you once again.


Cheers,
Clement

[BEM3]

Here’s another data point. This is my first post and unfortunately it doesn’t have anything good to report…

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 11,990 miles / 30 November 2009
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 2850 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

Reported rough idle when cold to the dealer. CEL was on. Did not notice any loss of power.

Dealer invoice states:

“Verified Customer Concern. Hooked up scan tool, found five random engine faults. P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, and P0304 (random cylinder misfire, cylinder misfire 1-4). Followed TSB 2019948/3, added fuel additive and road tested vehicle for 60 miles sustaining high engine RPM. Allowed vehicle to sit for several hours to repeat cold start up. Hooked up scan tool and cold started vehicle, MVB 14 registered 8 faults (4 in cylinder 1, 2 in cylinder 2, and 2 in cylinder 3). Will open TAC ticket. **- (Tech 2751) opened TAC ticket. They said to check camshaft adjustment. Performed check through MVBS 90-96 and they are fine, there are no sticking adjusters. Removed intake manifold and found carbon build up on back of valves. TAC said to perform cleaning as stated in the TSB. Cleaned valves, removed spark plugs, blew out carbon chunks. Reassembled and test drove. Let sit outside overnight and started cold. There was no misfire on any cylinder. Performed oil service per TSB. Closed TAC ticket. Done.”

Note:
Vehicle purchased new with 49 miles / 27 September 2008
Engine (short block) replaced for cylinder wall scoring 6521 miles / 14 April 2009
*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement
Drove the car from Seattle to San Francisco and back. It currently has over 15,000 miles on it and its starting to run rough when cold again. Thank goodness for warranty!

UPDATE:


Carbon build up again despite driving the car longer and harder…


Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 18,082 miles / 01 April 2010
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles


*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning


Issue: “Client states CEL is on and vehicle has a rough idle when started cold”


Dealer invoice states: “Verified Check Engine Light was on, performed guided fault finding, found fault P0301 Cylinder 1 misfire detected, P0303 Cylinder 3 misfire detected, both were at cold start, checked for TSB’s, found TSB2020645/4 for ECM update, updated software, suggest leaving car overnight to cold start and verify repair retested AM ok.



Less than a week later…



Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 18,255 miles / 09 April 2010
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles


*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning


Issue: “Client states the Check Engine Light is on. Please verify and advise (rough when cold)


Dealer invoice states: “XXXXX Could not verify concern.. No Check Engine Light on. Ran GFF and found faults P0301 and P0303. Same faults as before engine replacement. Removed all six coils and spark plugs. Checked cylinder walls for wear. Cylinder 3 shows reseding cross hatch. Checked history and found short block has been replaced, valve cleaning has been performed 6000 miles ago. ECM update has been performed. Camshaft Tensioner has been replaced for misfires on one bank. After gathering all information on this vehicle made a TACS Ticket. Access code XXXXXX. Case number XX-XXXXXX. Instructed to perform another valve cleaning and application of G17 fuel additive to fuel system following TSB number 2019948/3. Had 2 hrs of diag and preperation prior to repair. Added fuel additive to fuel tank, also filled gas tank with 10 gallons of fuel and drove vehicle for 60 miles. Slight misfires still felt. Removed intake manifold and air distribution housing. Cleaned off valves and swapped Injectors 1 with 4 and 3 with 6 for further diag in future if needed. Replaced all seals on swapped injectors. Removed all spark plugs and blew out any debris. Reinstalled all removed components. Performed an oil change under warranty as per TSB. Cold started vehicle and verified no cold start misfires. Every once and a while the vehicle needs to be driven harder than normal to clean off any carbon buildup on back of valves. Placing fuel additive in truck of vehicle and recommend adding in 3000 miles. G17 additive should be added on full tank.”


I am not confident that this is a permanent fix, but at least the dealer is doing what they can.

[mattlqx]

Jeeze, sorry to hear fo your continued issues. Amazing that you're having that at such low milage. The 3.2s definitely seem to have it the worst of all FSI engines.Tha ks for the update and keeping us informed. Superb documentation also!

[Akatsuki...]

Jeeze, sorry to hear fo your continued issues. Amazing that you're having that at such low milage. The 3.2s definitely seem to have it the worst of all FSI engines.Tha ks for the update and keeping us informed. Superb documentation also!

+1.. could it be that the lack of forced induction causes build up faster? My 2.0T is at 37000K Km.. less than 30k miles, and i have no issues.

[Auto Reign]

Read the attached PDF file.

There is a good reason why low SAPS engine oil is required for EURO 4 engine.


Cheers,
Clement


Link for download: http://www.clubaudimalaysia.com/foru...21f1315#p49549

[Faelcrom]

The A6 is primarily my wife's car. And she has a long commute. Just got it back from getting TSB 2019948/3 done. Here's my info:
**

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A6 3.2L
Location: San Pedro, CA
Mileage/Date: 29952 miles / 21 April 2010
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: 5000 per service advise. All by dealer.
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: Up until Nov. commute on the car is a little over 100 miles a day. Since then it has been short 6-10 mile trips.

Notes: ECM was done previously at 25K service. Started noticing the cold start mis-fire on and off shortly before the 25K service. CEL came on just before the weekend, took the car to the dealership on 4/19. Here's what the notes from the service tickets said:
**
VERIFIED CUSTOMERS CONCERN PERFORMED GFF FOUND FAULTS P0300 P0301 P0304 P0305 P0306 AS PER TSB 2020645/5 PERFORMED INSPECTION OF ECM SOFTWARE LEVEL FOUND ECM TO HAVE ALREADY BEEN UPDATED AS PER TSB 2019948/3 ADDED FUEL ADITIVE G17 TO FUEL TANK TEST DROVE VEHICLE 60 MILES LET VEHICLE SIT OVER NIGHT RECHECKED VEHICLE COLD START UP FOUND VEHICLE TO STILL BE MISSFIRING AS PER TSB REMOVED INTAKE AND PERFORMED CARBON CLEANING ON VALVES TEST DROVE VEHICLE LET VEHICLE SIT RECHECKED VEHICLE VEHICLE NOW OPERATING PROPERLY ADVISED CUSTOMER AS PER SERVICE MANAGER VEHICLE SHOULD BE DRIVING A ADDITIONAL 50 MILES CUSTOMER DECLIENED TES DRIVE AT THIS TIME ADVISE CUSTOMER TO ADD FUEL ADDITIVE G17 TO FUEL TANK IN 3000 MILES G17 BOTTLE IS IN GLOVE BOX
**
I have driven the car all day with 2 cold start, while the miss fire during start up has gone away. There is still seems to be a lag from teh engine when I step on the gas from a stand still. Can I expect to have to clean out the carbon build up every 20-30K miles? Seems like the problem only started after she stopped driving her long commutes. Might the carbon built up accelerated with the frequent short trips vs her previous long freeway commutes?

[BEM3]

MrPerfect and Akatsuki - Thanks and you’re welcome! I wish I knew precisely what is causing this problem.
Auto Reign – Good information. Thanks! It’s unfortunate that the same problems are occurring in Malaysia.
Faelcrom – Sorry to hear you’re having the same experience. Looks like your dealer is following similar troubleshooting procedures as my dealer.
It’s good to keep documenting everyone’s experiences in an effort capture as much data as possible and bring awareness to the situation.

[dbc112]

+1.. could it be that the lack of forced induction causes build up faster? My 2.0T is at 37000K Km.. less than 30k miles, and i have no issues.

Just a great reason to supercharge!

[frankyd021]

2007 A4 3.2 Quattro: Been in the shop for 3 weeks now... just got the call.. carbon build up is SOOOOO bad that i am getting a new motor... good thing im still under warranty.

[cleaver]

OK, here's my saga:
2007 A4 Avant 3.2 Tiptronic, purchased used in July 2008 with 21885 miles.

26,599 - check engine light on; misfire faults found and swapped ignition coils.
27,688 - check engine light on; misfire faults found and fuel additive added to tank.
28,150 - check engine light on; misfire faults found and injectors swapped. Misfires still present so removed intake manifold and cleaned intake valves for cylinders 1 and 2.
35,365 - check engine light on; misfire faults found and ECM software update performed
35,832 - check engine light on; misfire faults found and fuel additive added to tank. Misfires still present so removed intake manifold to check for carbon buildup - none found. Misfires still present and case escalated to TFM. All valve lifters replaced and misfires still present. Removed ignition coils and plugs and used boroscope to inspect cylinder wall. Scoring found at bottom of cylinder 2. New short block ordered. Transferred all necessary equipment to new short block but unable to fully install in vehicle due to engine mounting boss cracked in shipping. Second short block ordered. Transferred all necessary equipment to new short block and installed in vehicle. Misfires still present so replaced all injectors. No misfires found.
36,244 - customer returned with squeaks coming from front end. Loosened subframe bolts and allowed assembly to settle then retightened bolts and checked alignment.

What is it with these direct-injected V-6's??? My car had me very worried and I actually started shopping for another car, but I think I'm better off keeping it at this point. No, this shouldn't have happened, but at least Audi stepped up to the plate and made good, so I commend them for standing behind their product.

[wootwoot]

Would gasoline with alcohol in it help with this buildup issue? In my state we have 10% ethanol in all fuel.

[mattlqx]

In the US, the use of ethanol is mandatory and fuel in all states have some amount of ethanol in it. But no, since the fuel doesn't wash the valves ever, fuel additives and detergents don't matter.

[bloodstar57]

I going to be doing the BG ISC(buying the equipment) cleaning that injects into the manifold will keep post of results.

[atothek302]

I've been thinking about getting a S5 but hearing all this makes me hesitatnt to pull the trigger. Will Audi repai/clean the carbon buildup under warranty?

[mattlqx]

Seems to be a case-by-case basis. I'm not sure I've heard of any reports of S5's having valve cleanings to even judge how much power loss it really has.

[brando124]

I need help - i have a 2003 a6 3.0 liter. i was told that i need a new transmission today. i am not a car expert, but this seems odd to me. my car has only 80k miles. is this a common issue w/ audi? can someone please give me some advice - some questions to ask? what do i need to know?

[rmh]

I have a Ross-Tech VAG-COM scan tool and I regularly scan my Audis for faults and when I do get a CEL, I make a scan to keep the warranty service techs honest.

Below is the CSV file of my maintenance history for the 2008 A4 B7 3.2 6MT. When I purchased the car, they gave me AudiCare (free scheduled maintenance through 50,000 miles), so the vehicle has always gone back to the dealer for maintenance and oil changes. I pay for the 5000 mile change between the scheduled 10,000 mile interval, again, service done at the dealer.

Between the 25,000 mile service (24,196 miles) in Feb and the latest CEL in July (27,426 miles), the car has been to the track twice (hundreds of miles of 4000RPM-redline runs, 20-40 minutes at a time), has had 3 bottles of Audi G-001-700-03 HD6-C additive through it and only the highest octane fuel I can find (91-93).

There are 23 TopTier gas stations within a 50 mile radius of me and the only convenient ones I've been to have not had any fuel over 89 octane, so I end up using BP 93 octane fuel.

"Date","Mileage","Subsystem","Audi Code","Text","SAE Code","Text"
31-Jan-2008,14,,,"Took Delivery (<dealer> Audi)",,
19-Feb-2008,528,"Address 01: Engine","001796","Clutch Switch (F36): Implausible Signal","P0704 - 008","Implausible Signal - Intermittent"
19-Feb-2008,528,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
19-Feb-2008,528,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
11-Mar-2008,1012,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
11-Mar-2008,1012,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
10-Apr-2008,1615,"Address 01: Engine","000278","Engine Coolant Temp. Sensor (G62): Implausible Signal","P0116 - 008","Implausible Signal - Intermittent"
10-Apr-2008,1615,"Address 01: Engine","001796","Clutch Switch (F36): Implausible Signal","P0704 - 008","Implausible Signal - Intermittent"
10-Apr-2008,1615,"Address 01: Engine","001089","EVAP Emission Control Sys: Incorrect Flow","P0441 - 008","Implausible Signal - Intermittent"
10-Apr-2008,1615,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
10-Apr-2008,1615,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
9-Jun-2008,5654,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
9-Jun-2008,5654,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
11-Jun-2008,5716,,,"5000 mile service (<dealer> Audi)",,
28-Jun-2008,6182,,,"no faults found in this scan",,
17-Jan-2009,11588,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
15-Mar-2009,12744,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
15-Mar-2009,12744,"Address 56: Radio","00532","Supply Voltage B+","001","Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent"
15-Mar-2009,12744,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
8-Apr-2009,14650,,,"15,000 mile service (<dealer> Audi)",,
17-Apr-2009,,,,"New OEM 22mm Rear Sway Bar Installed",,
17-May-2009,15627,"Address 08: Auto HVAC","01272","Positioning Motor for Central Flap (V70)","41-10","Blocked or No Voltage - Intermittent"
17-May-2009,15627,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
20-May-2009,15717,,,"New Summer Tires/Wheels/Tire Pressure Sensors installed (<dealer> Audi)",,
21-May-2009,15751,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
21-May-2009,15751,"Address 65: Tire Pressure","01521","Sensor for Tire Pressure","004","No Signal/Communication - MIL ON"
26-May-2009,15966,,,"Correct Tire Pressure Sensors Installed (<dealer> Audi)",,
29-Jul-2009,,,,"Balance & Rotate Tires/Wheels",,
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 01: Engine","000772","Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected","P0304 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 01: Engine","000774","Cylinder 6: Misfire Detected","P0306 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 01: Engine","000768","Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected","P0300 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 01: Engine","001110","EVAP System: Very Small Leak Detected","P0456 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 01: Engine","001796","Clutch Switch (F36): Implausible Signal","P0704 - 008","Implausible Signal"
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 65: Tire Pressure","02214","Tire Pressure Warning","000",
3-Oct-2009,20138,,,"CEL illuminates",,
3-Oct-2009,20138,"Address 01: Engine","000772","Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected","P0304 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
3-Oct-2009,20138,"Address 01: Engine","000774","Cylinder 6: Misfire Detected","P0306 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
3-Oct-2009,20138,"Address 01: Engine","000768","Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected","P0300 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
3-Oct-2009,20138,"Address 01: Engine","001110","EVAP System: Very Small Leak Detected","P0456 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
3-Oct-2009,20138,"Address 01: Engine","001796","Clutch Switch (F36): Implausible Signal","P0704 - 008","Implausible Signal"
3-Oct-2009,20138,"Address 65: Tire Pressure","02214","Tire Pressure Warning","000",
8-Oct-2009,20200,,,"20,000 oil change, Evap valve changed, TB 2019948/2 performed for carbon buildup/misfires",,
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 01: Engine","000772","Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected","P0304 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 01: Engine","000774","Cylinder 6: Misfire Detected","P0306 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 01: Engine","000773","Cylinder 5: Misfire Detected","P0305 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 01: Engine","000768","Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected","P0300 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 01: Engine","000771","Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected","P0303 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
22-Feb-2010,24124,,,"CEL illuminates",,
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 01: Engine","000772","Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected","P0304 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 01: Engine","000774","Cylinder 6: Misfire Detected","P0306 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 01: Engine","000773","Cylinder 5: Misfire Detected","P0305 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 01: Engine","000768","Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected","P0300 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 01: Engine","000771","Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected","P0303 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 01: Engine","001796","Clutch Switch (F36): Implausible Signal","P0704 - 008","Implausible Signal"
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr",,"No Faults Found or DTCs not supported by controller or a communication error occurred",,
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
24-Feb-2010,,,,"25,000 service, TSB 2019948/3 performed for carbon buildup/misfires",,
11-Jun-2010,26725,,,"Balance and Rotate Tires",,
15-Jul-2010,27426,,,"CEL illuminates",,
15-Jul-2010,27426,"Address 01: Engine","000772","Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected","P0304 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
15-Jul-2010,27426,"Address 01: Engine","000774","Cylinder 6: Misfire Detected","P0306 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
15-Jul-2010,27426,"Address 01: Engine","000768","Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected","P0300 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
15-Jul-2010,27426,"Address 01: Engine","000773","Cylinder 5: Misfire Detected","P0305 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"

Car is at the dealer today, again - 3rd time in ~8000 miles.

[rmh]

Got the vehicle back from the dealer this afternoon - 6 hours from drop off to pickup.
I wonder if the techs are getting experienced at this? Six hours to get the car checked in, serviced and test driven, plus my 45 minutes to pick up the vehicle seems pretty quick.

Driveability is back to where it was when new. For some time now, I noted a pregnant pause hesitation when starting out in first gear when cold, but didn't think anything of it, after this service it appears to be gone. Car feels like its got its spunk back too.

TSBs 2019948/3 (case 2 - case 1 previously performed) and 2020645/5 (ECU update) performed - this included new software for the ECM, removing the intake manifold, swapping injectors, manual cleaning of intake valves and both lower intake manifolds/banks (tech noted "heavy amount of carbon buildup"), an oil service (change) and a test drive per the TSBs.

All service today performed under warranty.

Data Point information: My normal commute since owning this car has been 20-25+ miles each way (when I do not telecommute from home) with road trips every 3 months (600-1200 straight through miles each way, stopping only for gas/restroom breaks), and a number of High Speed Driver Education/track events. I live in the upper midwest where we have cold snowy winters and hot humid summers, but my commutes are purposefully outside of the rush hour so as to avoid stop and go traffic. I consider my normal driving style spirited.

[mattlqx]

I'm not sure how much easier/more accessible the V6 intake manifold is to remove and replace but the V8 FSI is a significant hassle. 6 hours does seem like an extremely short amount of time but given the widespread problem with the V6s, I wouldn't be surprised if they do in fact have a fairly smooth procedure for it. You could ask how were the valves cleaned (with what method)? If in doubt, you could've also asked for before/after pictures, but if it's pretty routine now, they probably wouldn't take them.

In the end, if she runs, great! The bummer is when this happens out of warranty and you have to pay out of pocket. That will kill the out-of-warranty market for the V6 FSI cars pretty hard.

[dbc112]

I'm not sure how much easier/more accessible the V6 intake manifold is to remove and replace but the V8 FSI is a significant hassle. 6 hours does seem like an extremely short amount of time but given the widespread problem with the V6s, I wouldn't be surprised if they do in fact have a fairly smooth procedure for it. You could ask how were the valves cleaned (with what method)? If in doubt, you could've also asked for before/after pictures, but if it's pretty routine now, they probably wouldn't take them.

In the end, if she runs, great! The bummer is when this happens out of warranty and you have to pay out of pocket. That will kill the out-of-warranty market for the V6 FSI cars pretty hard.

Killed mine for the RS4.. thats for sure.

[Keaton@JHM]

i think i might have another issue to report about carbon buildup in the 3.2 engine...

my step-father drives an a6 3.2 with the fsi engine. his check engine light has been on for a bit and he said the car has been idling really high on cold startups then going back down to the normal level. he took it into the dealership and they scanned it and found some misfiring fault codes. they said they needed to add a fuel additive because it could be carbon buildup and then wait until the next day to do another cold start. they started it today and still had the same codes/misfires. they told him that he's not using good enough gasoline and that's what's causing the buildup.

him and my mom have been running things by me because they know i like to "tinker with my car". when they first told me about the misfiring and the dealership tech saying "carbon buildup" i told them that i had read about some of the new cars having problems with this issue and since the car was still under warranty, the dealership should take care of it.

like i said, the dealership/service tech is saying that we're not using high-quality gasoline. i practically told my mom "wtf do they expect us to do? drive to the east coast for 93 or mix our own race fuel?!" (we live in cali). anyway, my mom is calling the dealership back to see what the final word is. i just wanted to post this to add some more information. i don't know all of the numbers on my step dad's car to add in any worthwhile data but i will when i can. basically, i'm just posting to keep track of this and checkout all of the info out there.

[switchface]

Not sure this applies 100% to this situation, but thought I'd pass it along. Perhaps a step in the right direction?

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2010...NEWS/100929873


Volkswagen AG has agreed to pay maintenance costs under a proposed settlement in a class-action lawsuit over sludge-damaged engines in 479,768 VW and Audi models.

Judge Joseph Tauro of the U.S. District Court in Boston gave conditional approval of the settlement last week. A hearing to approve the final settlement is scheduled for March 11, 2011.

According to court documents, the settlement affects 1997-2004 Audi A4 models and 1998-2004 VW Passat models with 1.8-liter turbocharged engines.

The engines were prone to oil sludge from coking deposits even when maintained according to the automaker's recommended maintenance intervals and oil-quality specifications, court documents show.

“Each plaintiff claims that his or her vehicle was damaged or will suffer future damages as a result of the alleged sludge and coking problems,” court records show.

The multi-state suit was consolidated in Massachusetts in 2006 according to lawyers representing car owners. The suit also claims VW and Audi failed to honor an 8-year unlimited warranty extension issued in 2004 by denying claims brought by vehicle owners with sludge-related engine failures.

VW and Audi have agreed to “cover 100 percent of the maintenance costs for owners/lessees with proper documentation of required oil changes, and 50 percent for those without proper documentation,” plaintiff lawyers said in a statement today.

The settlement also provides owners and lessees eligibility for a 10-year/120,000-mile enhanced oil sludge warranty, according to a statement issued from lawyers Peter McNulty, Kirk Tresemer, and Russell Henkin, who represent the vehicle owners.

All class members who currently own or lease the covered vehicles will also receive revised oil-maintenance recommendations.

A Volkswagen AG spokeswoman said the two sides are still finalizing the settlement.

“The terms haven't been worked out--the exact compensation or remediation is not yet finalized,” the spokeswoman said.

VW said letters will be sent out to owners around Dec. 20, and the final amount of the settlement will be determined by the number and size of claims paid.

VW began notifying owners of the problem in August 2004 after receiving consumer complaints. The automaker's remedies ranged from extending warranties to covering repair costs, including complete engine replacement.

Sludge buildup can cause engine performance to deteriorate, and in extreme cases, engines to lock up.

For more Car news - Automotive Headlines, click here.

Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/2010...#ixzz10wP9uxLV

[FlaS4]

Here's an interesting quote from a discussion about the 335's N54 DI motor and their problems with carbon buildup and in the OP's case an extreem of leakdown and scoring of the cylinder walls on his N54 Di motor. Here's the quote from a poster on the e90 forums as weel as the link to the discussion. Good read.

"I'm coming in to this thread a bit late, but I do have an interest (I've got an N54 in an '09 Z4). And I have a couple of thoughts that might be of interest re oil and the N54.

The problems associated with direct injection engines (not just the N54 but apparently all di engines) are fairly well known by now. There have been SAE papers on the subject and research is underway by at least one piston ring manufacturer to try to address these problems. And on the BITOG (Bob Is The Oil Guy) forum, a lubricants engineer who regularly attends the 24 Hrs of the Nurburgring race, and meets with race and lubricants engineers there, recently posted rather cryptically that the topic of the hour at the last race was the problems associated with direct injection (which is becoming pretty much the standard in engine design). When I sent him a pm to ask for more information all he would say is that the problems would have to be solved by the engine mfrs, not the lube mfrs. Nice.

The problem is fuel dilution. DI engines operate on much, much higher injection pressures than the "old" port injection engines. In the N54, fuel is injected at 1200-1700 psi, compared to about 45-75 psi in a port injected engine! Pretty amazing. That means higher blow by of fuel past the rings and more "wash down" of the oil film on cylinder walls. The fuel dilution in turn causes two major problems with the oil: viscosity loss (shear back) and significant lowering of the flash point of the oil (more oil vapors form to be sucked up by the CCV system and possibly form deposits in the intake track and valves). The extra heat generated by turbo charging can exacerbate these problems. There is one study I have read about that indicates if the fuel dilution gets bad enough, it can dissolve the tribological film laid down by the anti wear additive ZDDP. Sounds like Doomsday. You have to wonder why aren't BMWs with the N54 disintegrating all over the place. Must be good metallurgy in those motors.

As owners we can't do much about the design of the N54 but we can focus on the oil. I'm not going to recommend any specific oil, but I can say if your concerned like me you probably ought to change the engine oil frequently and do used oil analysis (UOA) at a good lab (flash point measured under ASTM 93/closed cup, and % fuel dilution measured by gas chromatograph) to figure out the oil change interval (OCI). There are no absolute standards or pass/fail marks for these indicators. Each lab seems to have their own standards and I sometimes wonder if some labs have any pass/fail limits at all. I have seen N54 UOAs posted on BITOG where the oil (the BMW 5w30 factory fill) has sheared back to a 20 wt (in as little as 1500 miles OCI) and no warning or negative comment given by the lab at all. In my opinion an oil should never shear back out of grade; and I'd start to be concerned if % fuel dilution exceeds 2%, and flash point goes much below 375 degrees F. I am frankly wary of BMW's 5w30 oil, and the factory OCI of approx 15000 miles is absurd in a motor like the N54. I would use the best grade synthetic (PAO or ester base stock) I could find and afford, preferably one that meets BMW's LL-01 standard and is in the viscosity range recommended for the N54: 5w30, 5w40, 0w30, or 0w40. And I would do regular UOAs until I could figure out how the oil is performing in my particular style of driving. If your N54 is out of warranty, or you don't care about warranty questions, you can go farther afield. Some folks in the lubricants industry think that part of the answer to di is vegetable-based motor oils, or bio-syns, which appear to stand up to fuel dilution better than conventional synthetics. Others mock these lubes as Mazzola/Canola oils. I do know that Fuchs (a leader in synthetic oils since the 1930s) has recently come out with a bio-syn series of synthetics. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name (Fuchs motor oils aren't available in the U.S.).

Tony, when you get your new rat motor finished you might want to try to communicate with John Rowland, the head chemist with Fuchs, through your Fuchs distributor. He is an avid racer and can be quite forthcoming with advice for individuals using his oils. He may be able to give you some ideas on the best oil for your application.

Sorry for taking so much band width. Hope I didn't go over stuff you already know. By the way, I think the N54 is a dynamite motor and I knew all about the di problems (and the HPFP) before I bought the Z4."

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464348

[BEM3]

Another update…

Carbon build up again after about 7 months and less than 9,402 miles!

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 27,717 miles / 05 January 2011
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning

Issue: “Client states the check engine light is on and the car runs rough when cold and if feels really sluggish (loss of power). MPG are down. Please advise.”

Dealer invoice states: “Hooked up scan tool, verified the vehicle has had cold start misfires in cylinders 1, 3, and 5. Performed SVM update provided by shop foreman. Recommend to allow vehicle to sit overnight to verify repairs. Hooked up scan tool, opened up MVB 14 to read misfire counts during cold start. Performed cold start, zero misfires were detected. Vehicle is operating as designed at this time with no misfires.”

When I picked up the car, it was still running rough so I left it with the dealer again.

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 27,718 miles / 06 January 2011
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning

Issue: “Client states the car still feels like it is misfiring when cold.”

Dealer invoice states: “Started in AM when cold. Found while watching the misfire counter there are no misfires seen by ECM or computer but I can feel a stumble for approximately 5-7 seconds. Client declined to pick up car. I removed the intake manifold and inspected the intake valves. Found the intake valves have carbon on stems and seats. Removed carbon from valves and cleaned cylinders with shop air and brake cleaner. Mixed G17 anti-carbon fuel additive with gasoline to soak on valves. Started car and let sit. Found no misfires at this time. Found no stumbling at this time. Car is running smoothly. The client was notified the car is ready. However, he has elected to pick up the car on the following Monday”

Audi released another software upgrade, but obviously I am not confident that this is a fix. I’m now working with the dealership to replace the car. I weary of another Audi or any car with DI. There aren’t many choices since many new cars now have DI.

[cleaver]

Geez, this is really scaring me! Sorry to hear that BEM3.
I'm 6000mi into a new short block and 5000mi into a new passenger-side head. I had a software update prior to the new head. All seems well so far, but I hope your experience isn't a foreshadowing of mine. I've got about 5 mos. left on original warranty and 12 beyond that as a goodwill gesture.
I, too, don't know what car to turn to if this doesn't work out. I want an AWD wagon and have been scared off by turbos and am now scared of direct injection. Maybe I'll have to settle for less room and look for an A3 3.2 or less power by going back to BMW (I had a 2001 330i) and look for a 328xiT.
Good luck (to all of us)!

[iconoclast]

Technical product information Transaction No.: 478301/6
Cleaning of coked engine parts Release date: 19-Mar-2008

Customer statement / workshop findings

All petrol engines. Cleaning of coked engine components (for example: inlet valves, combustion chambers, injectors).

Technical background

Carbon deposits on injectors, combustion chamber surfaces and in the intake system can result in severe running problems following cold starting and in loss of engine power. Tests have shown that coking is mainly caused by fuels and oils with inadequate amounts of additives.

Production change

No change.

Measure

A range of cleaning processes were tested, with the help of which coking deposits can be removed. The most effective method was found to be the injection of a cleaning mixture into the running engine.

In this process, the vehicle is connected to an external fuel circuit using pressure container V.A.G1938 and a suitable adapter for the vehicle fuel pipe.

The pressure reservoir V.A.G 1938 is no longer available.

The cleaning equipment BEDI can be used instead. Please observe its operating instructions. The equipment is available from:


R.U.F

Friedhofstr. 5

67127 Rödersheim-Gronau


Tel. +49 6231 / 7390

Fax +49 6231 / 98531

E-Mail: [email protected]

Internet: http://www.lambdaglobal-deutschld.de/eng_version


The cleaning procedure is performed with the engine idling and takes about 30 minutes.

In testing a range of cleaning agents, the best application results were achieved using products from the following manufacturers:

Injection System Purge,

Order number 76602,

Wynn´s Formula 766.

Available from:

Wynn´s Deutschland GmbH

Gothaer Straße 13

40880 Ratingen

Tel. No.: 0 21 02 - 48 03 00, Fax. No.: 0 21 02 - 48 03 10

Detergent for Petrol Systems Carbon Clean,

Order number 400-0020 from Carbon Clean.

Available from: Carbon Cleans Int.´l Distribution P. Reber Ch.

De Bellevue

CH-1423 Villars-Burquin

Tel. no.: 00 41 - 24 71 19 62, Fax. no.: 00 41 - 24 71 23 65

Lambda Injekt Otto - Article no. C100,

Lambda Service Tank Otto - Article no.: A100

Available from: R.U.F. Rep.- und Handels-GmbH W. Stephan

67127 Rödersheim-Gronau

Tel. No.: 0 62 31 - 73 90 or 9 85 46, Fax. No.: 0 62 31 - 9 85 31

Fuel additive for petrol engines, available under - Part No.: G 001 700.03

The cleaning agents have been developed specifically for the removal of coking deposits. There are slight differences in application and in cleaning efficiency.

In the case of combustion chamber coking (e.g. inlet valves) slight advantages were evident when using Wynn's Lambda Global cleaner

and Part No. G001 700.03.

In the case of coked injectors (reduced injection quantity with mileage), there was an advantage to using the cleaner from Carbon Clean.


* Important application instructions: The instructions of the cleaning agent manufacturers must always be observed! An engine oil change must be performed following the use of cleaning agents!

With the exception of Lambda Service Tank Otto and Part No.: G 001 700.03, the addition of cleaning agents to the petrol tank is strictly forbidden!

The preventive use of cleaning agents cannot be invoiced under warranty.


Customer information

[seckler17]

I came over from the A6 forum. I have the same problem with my 3.2L FSI engine. The issue started showing up around 60,000 miles. The car has been in the dealer 4 times. Same symptoms many of you have, rough idle on cold start. It started out as a fuel pressure sensor code (CEL), the dealership replaced the fuel pressure sensor on the 1st trip. Problem re-surfaced a few days later, same fuel pressure CEL this time they replaced the high pressure fuel pump. Symptoms were reduced but still had rough idle during cold starts. Car back in agian (cold start missfires CEL), this time the Audi tech admitted it was carbon deposits on the intake valves. He advised me to try seafoam. My car is out of the original warranty and is still covered under the CPO warranty. I recently ran seafoam through the fuel system as well as added it through the vacuum lines to get it into the intake. This seems to have helped some, I am going to take it back to the dealer and push for the manual cleaning, although this will probably be in vain or at the least out of my pocket.

[duffittw0]

Good afternoon,

I have been a lurker, but joined today.... I am a mechanical engineer by training (I work in IT security now) so I can grasp technical concepts. I wanted to float an idea by the forum and I apologize now if this has already been discussed, but I didn't see anything from various searches: Has anyone tried using plain old Starting Fluid (ether) in the air intake periodically when the motor is very hot? Could this help provide burn off of the carbon on the intake valves or is the carbon so heat resistant that it has zero impact? Maybe the ether could help prevent buildup by burning off residual oil before turning into carbon? Ether ignites so easily, I thought it might help keep parts of the intake and associated valves.

I just bought a 2008 Audi A4 3.2L 6-spd (Certified Pre-Owned, thank goodness!!) so I have skin in the game now!

[rriter&d]

Hey Guys I am new to forum so let me introduce myself .
I work for a Company (doing R&D) called CAT Products in PA . We have been working closely with Audi and VW tech reps and Dealer techs and independent Specialists to come up with an answer for this "Carbon Build up on intake valves" . Over the past 3 months I have been in Dealers from Georgia to NY and PA and have developed a procedure that we recommend be done as prevntive maintenance at 20k intervals and have both Audi and VW dealers selling this process to there customers. Specific adapters were made for the 2.0t and the 3.2 and now found a case reported in Florida of a 4.2 with only 16k that had bad carbon build up. We will be working on that in the near future if we find more 4.2's with this problem. I will post pics and more info soon. ask away if you have any questions. WE ALL HAVE this problem trust me when you see the pics from my 2.0t with 45k on it. ! Unbelievable what built up on my valves. We are talking about FSI motors only here.

[rriter&d]

They can keep updating the ECM all they want the carbon must be cleaned off the valves and then PM must be done on a regular basis or the carbon will come right back.
I feel bad you had to go thru so much crap just to get them to clean it manually.

Another update…

Carbon build up again after about 7 months and less than 9,402 miles!

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 27,717 miles / 05 January 2011
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning

Issue: “Client states the check engine light is on and the car runs rough when cold and if feels really sluggish (loss of power). MPG are down. Please advise.”

Dealer invoice states: “Hooked up scan tool, verified the vehicle has had cold start misfires in cylinders 1, 3, and 5. Performed SVM update provided by shop foreman. Recommend to allow vehicle to sit overnight to verify repairs. Hooked up scan tool, opened up MVB 14 to read misfire counts during cold start. Performed cold start, zero misfires were detected. Vehicle is operating as designed at this time with no misfires.”

When I picked up the car, it was still running rough so I left it with the dealer again.

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 27,718 miles / 06 January 2011
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning

Issue: “Client states the car still feels like it is misfiring when cold.”

Dealer invoice states: “Started in AM when cold. Found while watching the misfire counter there are no misfires seen by ECM or computer but I can feel a stumble for approximately 5-7 seconds. Client declined to pick up car. I removed the intake manifold and inspected the intake valves. Found the intake valves have carbon on stems and seats. Removed carbon from valves and cleaned cylinders with shop air and brake cleaner. Mixed G17 anti-carbon fuel additive with gasoline to soak on valves. Started car and let sit. Found no misfires at this time. Found no stumbling at this time. Car is running smoothly. The client was notified the car is ready. However, he has elected to pick up the car on the following Monday”

Audi released another software upgrade, but obviously I am not confident that this is a fix. I’m now working with the dealership to replace the car. I weary of another Audi or any car with DI. There aren’t many choices since many new cars now have DI.

[rriter&d]

see next post for pic
All the ether in the world wont take off a GIMBER like the one in this pic hanging off my intake valve. Pic taken with snap on boroscope, before I removed intake to clean valves manually

I have been a lurker, but joined today.... I am a mechanical engineer by training (I work in IT security now) so I can grasp technical concepts. I wanted to float an idea by the forum and I apologize now if this has already been discussed, but I didn't see anything from various searches: Has anyone tried using plain old Starting Fluid (ether) in the air intake periodically when the motor is very hot? Could this help provide burn off of the carbon on the intake valves or is the carbon so heat resistant that it has zero impact? Maybe the ether could help prevent buildup by burning off residual oil before turning into carbon? Ether ignites so easily, I thought it might help keep parts of the intake and associated valves.

I just bought a 2008 Audi A4 3.2L 6-spd (Certified Pre-Owned, thank goodness!!) so I have skin in the game now! [/QUOTE]

[rriter&d]

I finally figured out how to get a pic in thread LOL see previous post for my reply. (pic is of my 08 jetta 2.0t with 45k on it)