RS4: Intake Manifold Carbon Build-Up & Clean Up

[iconoclast]

those vanes and valves look brand new...

[dacrs4]

those vanes and valves look brand new...

just cleaned man

[maxbhp]

After the cleaning and mounting of intake I should expect better response and some power back?
Any has some figures or estimates ... thx (Arthur)

I should have some tomorrow - will be at GMG dyno'in in the afternoon. We have a really nasty hot weather spell here lately but since they use a closed cell dyno they are able to manipulate the conditions to be almost identical.

I don't expect as big a gain as you because my carbon buildup was definatley not that bad - only 18k miles.

[NY07RS4]

Looking forward to your results maxbhp.

[silverRS4]

Maxbhp..have you driven the RS4 the last few days? Not only are your ambient temps ridiculously hot, you've had a strong low pressure parked over your area. That is a rare occurrence. I'd bet your engine load% is barely 85%. I know the dyno cell is temperature controlled and the results corrected, but the RS4 really likes the load over 90%. What was the day/time of the initial pulls?

[jalas]

Maxbhp..have you driven the RS4 the last few days? Not only are your ambient temps ridiculously hot, you've had a strong low pressure parked over your area. That is a rare occurrence. I'd bet your engine load% is barely 85%. I know the dyno cell is temperature controlled and the results corrected, but the RS4 really likes the load over 90%. What was the day/time of the initial pulls?

Come on Silver! That's not hot. We just had a cold front come in dropping our temps down...finally!!! Humidity is lower as well.

[scmguru]

Maxbhp..have you driven the RS4 the last few days? Not only are your ambient temps ridiculously hot, you've had a strong low pressure parked over your area. That is a rare occurrence. I'd bet your engine load% is barely 85%. I know the dyno cell is temperature controlled and the results corrected, but the RS4 really likes the load over 90%. What was the day/time of the initial pulls?

I was in Socal on Monday with the RS4.. . car was NOT very happy with 100+ degree weather.. definitely took it easy, I figured it made no sense to beat on it with 118 degree air outside the car.. and this was one block from the beach... unreal..

[koolade9]

Maxbhp..have you driven the RS4 the last few days? Not only are your ambient temps ridiculously hot, you've had a strong low pressure parked over your area. That is a rare occurrence. I'd bet your engine load% is barely 85%. I know the dyno cell is temperature controlled and the results corrected, but the RS4 really likes the load over 90%. What was the day/time of the initial pulls?

The initial dyno was done before all the hot weather came in. It's cooled off a bit yesterday and today and I think gmg's cell can negate much of this (crosses fingers).

[ArthurPE]

The initial dyno was done before all the hot weather came in. It's cooled off a bit yesterday and today and I think gmg's cell can negate much of this (crosses fingers).

what was the date, time and zip code?

[koolade9]

what was the date, time and zip code?

sep 3rd, 4pm, 92704 is the zip...

Here's gmg's cell: http://gmgracing.com/dyno.shtml

ninja-edit :D

[maxbhp]

First was done Sept 3rd, 4pm 92704. Temp in cell was 76F per tech
Today run was done at 3:30pm. Temp in cell was 92 per tech

After the 2nd run today, oil temp was still at 212F. Dyno cell is closed off and all of the air comes in from the super blower they have. I was hoping for at least 10 hp gain. Stay tuned for the new thread I will post when I get home. Is it the CC or the PP....

[ArthurPE]

atm pressure has much more to do with it than temp
if the fan is large, temp in cell ~ the same as outside...

I'll see if I an find the conditions Santa Clara

edit: found the hourly data, within 15 minutes of your times...
temps were very close, a bit warmer today, humidity was 5% less today, but pressure was a good bit higher...
all else being equal should have generated ~4.5% more HP today due to atm conditions
cf ~ 1.045

First was done Sept 3rd, 4pm 92704. Temp in cell was 76F per tech
Today run was done at 3:30pm. Temp in cell was 92 per tech

After the 2nd run today, oil temp was still at 212F. Dyno cell is closed off and all of the air comes in from the super blower they have. I was hoping for at least 10 hp gain. Stay tuned for the new thread I will post when I get home. Is it the CC or the PP....

[koolade9]

atm pressure has much more to do with it than temp
if the fan is large, temp in cell ~ the same as outside...

I'll see if I an find the conditions Santa Clara

edit: found the hourly data, within 15 minutes of your times...
temps were very close, a bit warmer today, humidity was 5% less today, but pressure was a good bit higher...
all else being equal should have generated ~4.5% more HP today due to atm conditions
cf ~ 1.045

Not sure where you got your data...but santa clara is 400mi north of here... if you meant to say 'santa ana', then I'm not sure where you got your data, as the pressure difference is closer to 0.4%...lower

[silverRS4]

I come up with an inlet air density roughly 3-4% lower for yesterday's pulls based on the cell temps and barometric pressure, which tanked that day in the late afternoon. The engine load during the pull would likewise be roughly 3-4% lower, but that (and the actual IAT) can't really be determined unless it was logged.

[ArthurPE]

I got the data for the zip code given and from the NWS continuous logging
4.5% higher power on the later date...

as was said, impossible to know for sure without logging
and without this, the results are pretty much useless

fans make a BIG difference, they can pressurize the space, and exhaust fans can make it go negative (relative to atm P)
that is how they design clean rooms and containment suites
as much as 0.1 in hg
even higher in a well sealed space

[silverRS4]

I checked two weather stations within 10 miles of GMG, so I don't know where you are getting your info. If you consider ambient conditions only and forget the dyno cell temps, the conditions are within a percentage point, the later day being lower due to lower barometric pressure.

[ArthurPE]

NWS ~4.5% cf, better on the latter date
that is why I asked for date/time/zip code
but in a sealed room with fans, nobody knows, this really affects pressure
he stated a 16 deg F temp delta, your raph shows 1.5
but again, no one knows, those conditions are ESSENTIAL to any comparison...

the best way to see if it's P&P or CC
is baseline numerous cars with accuarte cf's
then CC & PP, test again
then drive each car the same mileage the CC/PP was done at
then test each
this will tell you deposits vs PP, or at least a reasonable estimate/order of magnitude

[silverRS4]

You ask for the zip code and come up with a barometric pressure on the second day that is "a good bit higher". Fact is, it was low on both days and with the second being slightly lower than the first. Maxbhp said the Dyno room tech said the temeprature in the cell was 16 degrees different. I do not see how that can be confused with weather station temps which are obviously "ambient" temps like the graphs show. I have used the term "mind-boggling" only a few times in various threads and they always seem to relate to your ability to make the transfer of even the simplest bits of information into a thesis on quantum mechanics. Don't bother telling me what you got for a grade, I'm sure its posted somewhere.

[Tugboatguy]

You ask for the zip code and come up with a barometric pressure on the second day that is "a good bit higher". Fact is, it was low on both days and with the second being slightly lower than the first. Maxbhp said the Dyno room tech said the temeprature in the cell was 16 degrees different. I do not see how that can be confused with weather station temps which are obviously "ambient" temps like the graphs show. I have used the term "mind-boggling" only a few times in various threads and they always seem to relate to your ability to make the transfer of even the simplest bits of information into a thesis on quantum mechanics. Don't bother telling me what you got for a grade, I'm sure its posted somewhere.

lol

[2manytoys]

I think the shape of the dyno graph in the other thread tells the story. What I mean by that is it is obviously the RS4 benefits from a clean inlet tract (manifold and valves). Interesting, the valves were not that bad too. It's so common to see the higher revs fall off first (not unexpected if you know even a little bit about engines)

[maxbhp]

LOL at all your weather graphs. You guys are too technical for me. Stephen, who runs the dyno at GMG and has been doing it for a long time (GMG bought their dyno cell and him from Harmon Motive. He says that if the temps were somewhere around 110F or more, then it would make a difference in the dyno cell, but just a 20 degree difference they could make up with the fans in the test cell.


Per their website:

At the heart of the test cell are two 10 HP fans with a combined flow of 70,000 CFM. These two 10 HP fans extract exhaust gasses out of the test cell, while bringing fresh outside air in, creating a realistic driving scenario. The test cell is also insolated so while a car is being run on the dyno, it is not disrupting the other aspects of our shop. With this sophisticated equipment we can test and tune any 2wd or 4wd vehicle in the market today. Although GMG specializes in Porsche, Audi, Ferrari and Lamborghini, our Dynamometer is available to be rented for tuning and testing purposes by the hour or by the day for any vehicle including cars and trucks, gasoline or diesel powered.




BTW, I did put in a brand new air filter (stock) if anyone cares for the new runs.

[iconoclast]

i am guessed mixed reviews from port and polishing the intake. should i go forward with it or waste of money?

[jfunkey]

Well after reading all this. Its clear carbon cleaning and intake cleaning make power.. Thats 3 dyno sheets now. 3 different people

[jalas]

Well after reading all this. Its clear carbon cleaning and intake cleaning make power.. Thats 3 dyno sheets now. 3 different people

jfunkey, more then just three dyno sheets. Some of the Quattroworld guys have posted their results as well.

[iconoclast]

yes, a few people on qw have done it as well and have seen positive results.

[koolade9]

[iconoclast]

anyone who has had or is having cb issues please submit data here:
http://audidrc.com/tinc?key=LtzGywca...e=vehicle_info

[Steadyb]

anyone who has had or is having cb issues please submit data here:
http://audidrc.com/tinc?key=LtzGywca...e=vehicle_info

I am a new owner of an RS4 and have read many posts about the carbon buildup. None that detail the exact cause. I get that air & fuel mix differently and the combustion minimizes buildup in other cars. Is the buildup from dirty fuel or dirty air mixing with fuel & collecting, or incomplete detonation or running lean? Does the cars sensors try to attain a stoichiometric air-fuel ratio?

[koolade9]

I am a new owner of an RS4 and have read many posts about the carbon buildup. None that detail the exact cause. I get that air & fuel mix differently and the combustion minimizes buildup in other cars. Is the buildup from dirty fuel or dirty air mixing with fuel & collecting, or incomplete detonation or running lean? Does the cars sensors try to attain a stoichiometric air-fuel ratio?

if there was one specific cause, it could be remedied...it's a combination of factors. And yes, the ecu uses wideband o2s and will work to maintain a healthy a/f.

[Wizard-of-OD]

Have you guys seen this?

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...Cylinder-Heads

[beemercer]

^yummy

[Tugboatguy]

RS4 gets heavy carbon build up on valves because unlike the S4 it does not have fuel spray helping to keep the valves clean. The build up is started by oil vapor from the PCV system, But wait you say "My engine has a Super Duper cyclonic oil separator unit for the PCV system". Well problem is even the updated version of this separator is probably only 75% effective, Well you say "I'll add a Catch Can System". Unfortunately even the really good catch can units with baffles and filters only "reduces the residual oil content to a minimal level" and your basic catch can is only good for catching the large oil droplets not so good for vapor. Its that minimal level that is the problem, that TINY little bit of oil vapor sticks to the valve. Add heat, fine particles of dirt that are not stopped by the air filter and combustion contaminants from the cylinder. Repeat over and over and you have build up.

[dmppdx]

RS4 gets heavy carbon build up on valves because unlike the S4 it does not have fuel spray helping to keep the valves clean. The build up is started by oil vapor from the PCV system, But wait you say "My engine has a Super Duper cyclonic oil separator unit for the PCV system". Well problem is even the updated version of this separator is probably only 75% effective, Well you say "I'll add a Catch Can System". Unfortunately even the really good catch can units with baffles and filters only "reduces the residual oil content to a minimal level" and your basic catch can is only good for catching the large oil droplets not so good for vapor. Its that minimal level that is the problem, that TINY little bit of oil vapor sticks to the valve. Add heat, fine particles of dirt that are not stopped by the air filter and combustion contaminants from the cylinder. Repeat over and over and you have build up.

If all the carbon build up is just related to vaporized oil, why hasn't anyone created some form of filter to catch it? Sort of like an air filter kind of thing that would catch it prior to it going into the intake manifold. Not that I know much about what type of filter to use, but I would think there would be something that would work and it seems it would be simple to fabricate.

[dparm]

There is no way to effectively capture that vaporized oil without severely choking the oil supply to the motor. We are talking about things that get through very good filter elements already.

Certain oil types are better at suspending these contaminants in their formulations, but nothing is perfect.

[Sodium]

I want to call out a post I made regarding the p2006/p2007 codes throw on the 3.2 FSI. It relates to the reassembly procedure following the carbon cleaning of the intake valves.

The gist of it is this: The intake runners in the ducts on the fuel rails can get pinned on the intake divider plates during reassembly which then requires re-disassembly to correct.

If you're in there be sure the intake runner plates seat up against the intake divider plate during assembly and are not pinned above the divider plates.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...1#post12034866

[Dirtracer603]

I know the recirculated blow by gases are responsible, however, how much of the issue is also derived from the intake valves collecting deposits directly from the combustion chamber when they open?

Sent from my SM-G900P using Audizine mobile app

[ven0m]

I know the recirculated blow by gases are responsible, however, how much of the issue is also derived from the intake valves collecting deposits directly from the combustion chamber when they open?

Sent from my SM-G900P using Audizine mobile app

I would dare to say none during the intake phase as at that point the chamber is at vacuum and air (mixed with deposits) can travel only in one direction - from the valves down to the piston and not up.